Here is a good analogy on this blog.
http://shadowspar.dreamwidth.org/33557.html?#cutid1
It makes me wonder why when it involves a woman and the assault is sexual, why is this being treated far differently than another type of assault?
Are you serious with this? Good gravy. I’m also fairly astonished that so many of you are balking at the possibility that the story in her blog is true. For fun, let’s discuss my weekend, oui?
I went to New Orleans with a female friend and on Friday night, we got all gussied up and went to Bourbon Street. I was wearing a red dr-- fuck it, let’s skip a step, I was wearing this. Far from a nun’s outfit, but I didn’t have any pink parts hanging out. Anywho, we went over to Bourbon where we drank, danced, did some shots, danced some more, and took part in the general goodtimes of that area. No, I didn’t flash anyone my tits, but men kept hurling beads at me from balconies regardless (thanks, I guess?).
At one point, we went into a club and went out on their second floor balcony. When we walked out, it was all men and us two girls. Everybody was throwing beads to the folks below and chatting all friendly-like. This lasted a solid 45 minutes or so and was super fun. Some guy made some comment about my tits, which drew the attention of about 6 of the other guys, who then sort of circled around me and said I should show them my tits and get beads. I laughed and said that wont be happening, trying to push my way out of their little circle-- but they all circled in around me even more, pushing me up against a wall. I started to get nervous and push out of the group a little more, but they were all trying to dance on me- getting closer and closer, pawing at me and grabbing my chest, hips, butt. Then, I see several pairs of hands pull at the top of my dress, so as to expose my breasts. I pushed their hands away of course, but I was definitely nervous at this point. One guy goes, “C’mon, show me yours and I’ll show you mine,” and starts undoing his pants. About this time, I pushed through them much harder, grabbed my friend, and said we needed to go. FWIW, my friend and I are both in our mid twenties, the men on the balcony mostly seemed to be in their 30s and 40s, though there were a few I’d peg around our age.
That’s not counting the countless guys who felt me up while dancing with me throughout the night (as soon as that happens, I push them off of me and walk away), the 5 or 6 times my ass got smacked or grabbed, and the one time a guy snapped my thong while dancing with me. That’s one night.
I’m not a particularly gorgeous girl or anything and this shit happens to me all the time. Should I stop going out? Should I only wear pantsuits or burkas because a bunch of scum bags can’t keep their hands to themselves? Certainly I take steps to protect myself, but I’m not going to censor my entire life and live in constant fear. The reality is though: lots and lots of shit happens to women on the day to day. I get grabbed. Strangers make totally inappropriate comments about my body. Hell, I was at a Halloween party this year with a bunch of professional adults and some creeper kept trying to take pictures up my fucking skirt.
So, basically, I have no issue believing this woman’s account of what happened. It hardly seems so out of my reality that it’s shocking.
It isn’t and it doesn’t.
I’d have the same doubts about his story, if he related in the same manner, as I do about the story in the blog in the OP.
No witnesses + no evidence + one side of a story = reasonable to doubt said story.
Gosh, what was I thinking not getting that guy who started to whip out his dick’s 5 friends to write up affidavits about what he did? I’ll be sure to keep a notary with me at the club from now on. Thank you!
I should be able to leave piles of cash in my unlocked car. I should be able to leave my house unlocked. But if I do those things, I can’t be too shocked when my car is broken into and my house is robbed. I have to have some understanding of human behavior.
This guy had no right to assult her just like a burgler doesn’t have the right to clean out my unlocked house. But that doesn’t mean she didn’t act irresponsibly.
It’s a sad fact of life that a woman can’t openly flirt, sit in laps, and drink a lot in an unsafe environment. If she does those things, it’s just a matter of time before she’s attacked in someway. She should be able to do those things just like I should be able to leave money in my unlocked car, but that is a fantasy desire of a perfect world. In the real world, if you make yourself vulnerable, you will be taken advantage of. The law is there to protect you after the fact, but it won’t necessarily prevent the attack in the first place.
Guess the taliban is right - we better get our burka’s on & never leave the house again. Being female is too much temptation for me to handle.
I notice that you didn’t start a blog post with his full name, either. And if you did, why should a total stranger believe your story, without even hearing his story?
Or is it that a woman’s story should always be believed, no matter what? Because that’s the implicit message that many in this thread have.
No critical analysis, no evidence needed, not even corroboration from anyone else, is that it? Just always believe everything a woman says?
:dubious:
So, let’s me clear here: you’re saying it was my fault that a group of 6 men groped me, pulled down my dress, and attempted to expose themselves to me because I was wearing a tight dress and had been drinking? Oh, and the ass grabbers and thong snapper, that was my fault for daring to dance in public, yes? What about the guy who held me down on the street and forcibly kissed me when I was 14 and jogging around my block in sweat pants? Was it my fault for trying to condition for the frosh soph tennis team at 4 pm in a suburban neighborhood? I should have taken security with me, right?
I actually didn’t catch their names, since I was so afraid that I was about to be sexually assaulted by a group of men that I ran away as fast as I could. If I had their names, I’d have no qualms about posting them here, there, or anywhere though. And while I don’t expect everyone to believe me, I know that there are many women (many more than men, I imagine) who experience the same things I do day in and day out-- they’d believe me, just like I believe the blogger in the OP.
No. It’s your fault you were in a place with 6 men who are that type of person.
Meant to edit to add this: since when has hanging out with a group of COWORKERS been deemed an unsafe environment? Isn’t that what we, as women, are supposed to do- stay in large groups of people we know when drinking, so as not to be taken advantage of? Maybe women shouldn’t be allowed to drink at all, lest men be forced to keep their dicks in their pants when titties bounce through the room.
So I should not have gone to New Orleans or Bourbon Street where there were oodles of people of all ages, sexes, and surely creeds? Alright, fair enough. I was asking for it. I was probably asking for it when I was 14, too.
Oh, wait. Here’s the point: this shit happens to women all the time. I can be in sweatpants and looking filthy at the grocery store, I can be wearing pasties and a thong at a club in Vegas. If you’ve never experienced it, you can never understand. This has happened to me regularly since I was 13 years old and has not slowed even though I’m now about to be 25. So yeah, I believe that this lady’s coworker felt her up, because it’s not that big of a stretch.
Please tell me the approved activities and travel locations that insure I wont be deservedly raped.
Those guys who did that are 100% at fault. They are 100% responsible for acting in that manner. But you can’t go through life acting like those guys don’t exist. They do exist and if you dress and act like you did, those guys will eventually accost you.
Just like you should be able to have fun on Burbon Street, I should be able to push a wheelbarrow full of cash down that same street unmolested. I don’t do that because I know there’s a very good chance I will be beaten or killed. I may be able to safely walk past 1000 people, but I know there’s that 1001st person who is going to give me trouble. If I came here with a story about how I was mugged, I doubt people would say I played no part in what happened.
Wooo! We are in Vague City now.
*bolding mine.
How is it that I acted exactly? Also, how should I dress so as not to have that happen again? I’ll anxiously await examples. Also, hey- if you’ve got any studies that compare what rape victims wear, that’d be awesome too. Actually wait, nevermind- I’m sure women in burkas never get raped ever. I believe you :).
And if they shouldn’t go through life assuming women like me don’t exist- if you accost me, I will take action, up to and including writing about what you did in a public place so that your family, friends and coworkers know what kind of person you are. If more women did this, perhaps less men would do that.
I think the “taliban” comment was right on. You realize these are the exact same arguments, right? They are saying a woman can’t go out in a restaurant unescorted because someone will lose control and rape them. You are saying the exact same thing, but about a bar or a hotel party. Who gets to draw the line about what a woman can reasonable do without “expecting” to get sexually assaulted? Is there a limit to how much women should curtail their lives? Should I drop my night classes? Turn down a job in an all-male office? Skip the happy hour “networking socials” that create career contacts? Do men have any obligation at all not to sexually assault me?
What if this was some other form of targeted violence? If lynching was still in fashion, would be be telling black people “Well, what could you expect for talking to a white woman?” Someone got raped in my college town, and they put out a city-wide alert recommending that women not go out alone at night. If a racist was shooting black people, would they ever dream of telling them “Well, stay in your homes if you are black?”
I’m not saying you did anything immoral or wrong. But you are a hot girl dressed in a hot outfit walking down a street filled with drunk guys. I really wish that bad people didn’t exist and you could freely walk down the street, but it’s just not like that. Bad people exist. I’m sorry that’s true. Being a hot girl in a hot outfit makes you a target. Being surrounded by wall-to-wall guys means it’s that much easier for the bad guy to find you. Bad people don’t care about what’s wrong and right–they just do what they want.
Like in my wheelbarrow of cash example, I’m doing nothing wrong. But it’s irresponsible for me to do something like that with the expectation that nothing bad will happen. I should have bodyguards around me to keep me safe. I would say you would need to do the same thing. A hot single girl on packed Burbon Street is 100% going to have problems. A hot girl with several trusted guys with her is probably going to be okay.
I’m very sorry you had that terrible experience and I think those guys should be thrown on jail. But I also hope you never innocently go into that situation again because the outcome will likely be the same. Go have fun, but you need to evaulate the situation and take steps to make sure you are safe.
I understand your point, but what can I do? If I’m a hot girl, should I just not go in public? Should I not go out at night? What about taking night classes, is that ok? What about the gym in the evenings? If I am a hot girl (which is awfully nice of you to say), I certainly can’t change that. Well, I mean, unless I toss some acid on my face, Taliban style.
Ok, so maybe I should be a hot girl in frumpy clothes. Fine. But where’s the line? Men say shit to me even when I’m wearing baggy sweatpants and a tshirt at the gym. Please don’t think the only time this stuff happens to women is at the club (where it’s at least more expected)-- I’ve been harassed at the grocery store, the bus stop, the bank, the gym, at school, at the coffee shop, on and on over the years. If I’m alone and walking, I’m a target. There’s literally nothing I can do except for. . . not go in public alone.
It’s up to you to evaluate the situation and dress appropriately for how you want to be treated. If you show up to happy hour in business casual clothes, there will likely be nothing to worry about. But if you show up in a skimpy bikini, you are going to have unwanted attention. I 100% think you should be able to wear what you want, but I think you’d be irresponsible to think that you can dress however you want and not have any repercussions.
It’s the same with I should be able to leave my car stuffed with cash, but it’s irresponsible to think I won’t get robbed.
Petition to become a member of a species that reproduces asexually, maybe. 
…what do you base this on?
The blog post is not just about doubting her story. You are correct that there is no proof - therefore no reason to believe her, but there is also no reason to doubt her either.
Since you say you would doubt the man who was punched equally, and you say this is just about doubt - perhaps the rest of my post doesn’t apply to you.
For those who are blaming her - read all of his “I wonder” list, and you will see examples of nearly every other post here.
There is a chance that she has lied about the whole incident, and for Florian - if she has lied - he can file a libel suit.
I’m far more inclined to believe her considering what women go through on a regular basis, especially what goes on in the IT industry.
A friend from the conference was not a witness but did see her afterward. There has not been an outcry of fellow Apache Conference attendees with evidence to the contrary either.
I think it is far more likely she is telling the truth - the tech world is a very sexist world.
Here is a list of only some incidents:
Other women have had similar things happen, both in the tech world & out.
It is not impossible, not unlikely, and not even all that rare that women get assaulted.
Now to get back to the “I wonder” list…
Would a man punched in the face be blamed? Would his drinking come in to question? Would his clothing come in to question?
I really doubt it!
There are men - because of their discomfort with female sexuality and their patriarchal madonna/whore complexes - a woman is blamed when she is victimized.
There are men here who are blaming her for drinking, blaming her for being at a party, blaming her for her behaviour in general in being a flirtatious female!
If she was assaulted, her behaviour should never be blamed, just like the men, she should be permitted to have a few drinks, she should be permitted to wear what she likes & she should be permitted to flirt! She should be allowed to go to a conference party too!
The conference after party is an essential part of any conference - 90% of the networking occurs afterwards - what if she didn’t go? It would be seen as highly irregular and she would be seen as not being a participant. She would miss out on most of the networking. In general - it would be very bad form not to take part in the afterparty!
All this talk of whether her actions of having a few drinks & wearing a short skirt & even being at the party as the reason and an excuse for the man of what happened is VERY wrong - this sort of judging of the victim was supposed to have died out in the 1970’s!