Not sure what you were going for there :dubious: , but my statement does not exclude the existence of patriarchy and rape culture. I am less knowledgeable in the other topics you mentioned.
I don’t understand the disdain for the use of the word patriarchy. Here is a dictionary definition and wikipedia entry. I do believe it exists, and it is precisely the way a society is structured that prevents or denies women and men the capacity to chose what they want to do with their lives. You may not want to call that system patriarchy for whatever reason I don’t understand, but it is this that prevents you, a man, from pursuing some things you may be interested. It is not a fair system for most men or women.
I generally agree. I don’t think feminism is especially for or about moms, though.
To go old-school on you for a moment:
"No woman should be authorized to stay at home and raise her children. Society should be totally different. Women should not have that choice, precisely because if there is such a choice, too many women will make that one."
Simone de Beauvoir, author of The Second Sex
*“We can’t destroy the inequities between men and women until we destroy marriage.”
Robin Morgan, co-founder, the Women’s Media Center.
*“The nuclear family must be destroyed . … Whatever its ultimate meaning, the break-up of families now is an objectively revolutionary process.” *
Linda Gordon, author of Woman’s Body, Woman’s Right
The surest way to turn a feminist into an ex-feminist is if she has a son.
To be honest, if you think all of these young women’s reasons for rejecting 3rd wave gender feminism are non-sequiturs, you really need to speak to more 3rd wave gender feminists.
On an intellectual level, 3rd wave gender feminism is remarkable for its reliance on shoddy arguments and intellectual dishonesty. And on a personal level, its practitioners are remarkable for their abusiveness.
Now, it should come as no surprise that the examples cited in that link don’t make much reference to the works of Mary Wollstonecraft or Simone De Beauvoir. That doesn’t mean they have nothing to do with feminism, specifically the 3rd wave, as it is practised by very large number of people (particularly young people) in the West today, and I can’t blame anyone for not wanting to associate themselves with it.
I don’t agree 100% (Total agreement is not possible for any mass movement or ideology) but overall I think your comments are incredibly valid. Just wanted to second their endorsement.
That’s a big part of feminism, certainly, as I understand it. That’s certainly one of the main reasons I’m a feminist, because I want women to have the freedom to choose what’s best for them, body-wise, family-wise, career-wise, and society-wise.
In your countless threads on this topic, you always bring up slut walks. What, exactly, do you have against slut walks? They began after a Toronto police officer said women should “stop dressing like sluts” to prevent rape.
Do you think that was an appropriate thing to say?
Now they occur internationally, and focus on the relevant issues in that area. In India, for example, they address female infanticide and forced marriage.
Silencing and delegitimising female voices like that is every bit as anti-feminist as the statements made by the young women in LinusK’s cite. It’s even more galling because ‘Confused Cats Against Feminism’ was created by a man.
Depends on your perspective. I know some female feminists who have no problem with men calling themselves feminists. Other female feminists I know think that feminism was created by women for women, and that men who call themselves feminists are invading a space that isn’t meant for them and in which their voices are unneeded (and often unwelcome). These women think that men have no right to call themselves feminists and should call themselves “feminist allies” instead.
Either way, taking the piss out of women who don’t want to be associated with 3rd wave gender feminism is a silencing tactic designed to delegitimise female voices, and it’s every bit as anti-feminist as the statements made by the young women on LinusK’s cite. If ‘Confused Cats Against Feminism’ had been created by a feminist woman, that would be bad enough. The fact that it was created by David Futrelle, a white, middle-class, cisgender male, just adds insult to injury.
Most of the ones I could read were not talking about roles per se. Once more, they’re starting with incorrect assumptions of what feminism is. Interesting you mention qualities instead of roles, as I don’t consider what some of them wrote as “qualities”, and having someone telling me they are raises :dubious: from me.
They seem to be attacking straw men, they’re not attacking the principles of it. In fact, some start with “I’m not a feminist because…”, and then write something that is totally aligned with feminism. It is slightly pointed out in one of the more recent one, which admits that there is a difference between US and other parts of the world. The reason feminism in the US may be different from other places is because some places are still fighting for rights and outcomes that women in the US got decades ago. This does not make all feminism outdated, it just means that in different places the focus of what is important will shift.
Seems just like mockery designed to make people laugh to me – don’t know how it’s designed to silence anyone (in fact, I’m not sure how any mockery is designed to silence anyone).
Again, it’s both. The young women of ‘Women Against Feminism’ are giving their reasons for wanting to disassociate themselves from 3rd wave gender feminism, and they are speaking only for themselves. They have every right to that opinion. Rather than constructively challenge these opinions, ‘Confused Cats Against Feminism’ starts from the presumption that these opinions are inherently stupid. This delegitimises their personal opinions by presuming that they are beyond the scope of rational discourse.
If a woman chooses to distance herself from 3rd wave gender feminism, that’s her choice. It’s not anyone’s place to delegitimise a woman’s personal opinions about feminism. For an allegedly feminist cis-gender male to do it, despite the fact that 3rd wave gender feminism axiomatically situates him in a position of relative privilege to these women, is just flagrant punching down. This abuse of power makes it more difficult for these women to express their honest opinions about 3rd wave gender feminism.
Thus, ‘Confused Cats Against Feminism’ is both silencing and delegitimising.
This is your interpretation of the cats thing, but it’s not the only one. My interpretation is quite different – I see it as a combination of something like “much of the criticism of feminism [not necessarily this particular criticism] is nonsensical straw-manning” and “cats talking about feminism is funny”.
I’m fine with all this – I don’t see how the cats stuff does any of this.
I still don’t see it. I think the point of departure is in the first paragraph, in the “starts with the presumption…” bit.
The only way mockery would “shut them up” is if it causes them to realize their opinions are inane.
There are plenty of opinions on the internet, and plenty of responses mocking those opinions, and I don’t see anyone being silenced by it unless they willingly change their views.
It hasn’t silenced you, has it?
On preview, to reply to your last post:
Please. Countless “constructive challenges” were given in the countless previous threads the OP started on this subject. They were ignored (or by your standards, “delegitimised”?). You’re late to the party, my friend.
