Feminists attack less-feminist women for not being Feminist enough.
Also, in today’s news: the sky is blue.
From their written statements, the wide majority of them are in fact against the positions of the “ultra”, busibodies, sex-negative and/or misandrist feminists. Since these groups, despite being a minority get most of the media coverage and cause a lot of ruckus, I’m not particularly surprised that younger women identify “feminism” with this particular stance, the only one they’re clearly aware of, and that they write they don’t need/want “feminism” when what they mean is that they don’t want/need the crazy integrists.
I saw only a couple who in fact advocated for traditional gender roles and could possibly be termed “anti-feminists”, but probably not even them, since presumably that’s based on their preference, not on the idea that women in general should stay subservient.
Some also seem to think that the job is done, and that there’s no need for any kind of feminism anymore in the western world, which I find dubious.
With very rare exeptions, the only significant group of actually antifeminist women in the western world seem to belong to some ultra-traditionalist religions or cults.
I think CCAF starts with the presumption that the opinions it’s mocking are inherently stupid because it doesn’t make any attempt to tackle the substance of them. It’s basically saying “Haha! Look at these dumb cats. They don’t get feminism either. They think it’s food!!” To me, it’s not much different from taking someone’s opinion and just repeating it back to them in a silly voice.
Then again, that’s just what I get from it. If your mileage varies, fair enough.
Many of the very visible ultras that I was mentioning indeed think they can’t. A significant part of them also reject transwomen from feminism because they aren’t real women, they don’t share the true experience of having a vagina from birth (I’m not even caricaturing).
Firstly, that presumes that their opinions are inane. They don’t seem inane to me. There are several good reasons why a woman might not want to be associated with 3rd wave gender feminism.
Secondly, it’s perfectly possible for a person to sincerely hold an opinion yet keep it to himself for fear of incurring mockery. That doesn’t mean the mockery has changed their mind. It just means they don’t want to be laughed at.
Of course you don’t see people being silenced. They’re silent, after all.
I’m not talking about LinusK. I’m talking about the women at the ‘Women Against Feminism’ blog.
I don’t think such mockery (even the silly voice stuff) requires the presumption that the opinions are stupid. People might mock in such a way just because they think it’s funny, and it can be funny IMO (when done well) whether or not the original opinions are foolish or not.
So how can you claim they are out there - and what they are thinking - if no one (including you) can see them?
And what I do clearly see is that they are continuing to voice their opinions, however inane I may think they are. And again, it clearly hasn’t silenced you, or the OP, or the other anti-feminists posting here.
They are not participating in this thread (hey, maybe I’ve effectively silenced them, using my feminist superpowers!), and we are discussing their views in general, which are shared by the OP.
But surely, you are not claiming to directly speak for these women, are you? Isn’t that “delegitimising” their right to think or speak for themselves? Anti-feminists don’t think highly of “white knighting” for feminists, so it would be hypocritical to not apply that same principle to themselves.
This is ridiculous. Yes, women can hold any opinion they want. But no, every social media campaign that happens to be by a woman isn’t some sacred thing nobody can comment on. If they say misinformed, inane or disingenous stuff, they don’t have some kind of special protection from being called out. I happen to think a good chunk of that campaign is at least deeply misinformed- feminism just isn’t against the things they are complaining about, in in some cases (like the people commenting on enjoying sex), feminism has done a lot to make the very things they are talking about possible.
Maybe I just live in a bubble, but your view of feminism seems so vastly different from mine it’s nearly incomprehensable. Most feminists I know are ordinary women with relatively ordinary opinions, who are concerned about things like work-family issues, women’s health and gender issues globally. When I was in college, I maybe met a few extremists, but they aren’t the bulk or the most visible, IMHO.
FWIW, when I was a film student, I boycotted my school’s feminist film club because they wouldn’t admit men. That’s ridiculous- some of the most important feminist filmmakers have been men, and we can’t do feminism without men.
It’s just common sense. If you’re a Young Earth Creationist in the Bible Belt, you’d likely have no qualms about advocating for Young Earth Creationism. If you’re a Young Earth Creationist at Harvard, on the other hand, you might keep it to yourself. That doesn’t mean you’re not a Young Earth Creationist. It just means you’re intimidated into keeping quiet because you don’t want others in your peer group to laugh at you. That’s how mockery can silence a person without actually changing their mind.
The same applies here. If you state an opinion, and then a tumblr mocking your opinion goes viral, you might think twice about expressing that opinion. That doesn’t mean you no longer hold it. It just means you’ve been effectively silenced.
Firstly, neither of us has any way of knowing how many young women have been dissuaded from posting their picture and their opinions on ‘Women Against Feminism’. However, given the veritable tidal wave of mockery levelled against them (of which CCAF is only a small part), I find the idea that none have to be absolutely ridiculous.
Secondly, I post here behind a pseudonym. There’s no way to identify me through my posts. The same cannot be said for the women on ‘Women Against Feminism’. They can be identified and, thanks to stuff like CCAF, they now have to pay a higher social cost for expressing this particular personal opinion.
Thirdly, I have a thick skin, and I don’t give a fuck what anyone thinks about me. If someone thinks my opinions make me an asshole, I couldn’t care less. There are plenty of people out there who don’t share this blasé attitude. Just because I’ve not been silenced doesn’t mean that no-one has.
Fourthly, if you re-read my posts, you’ll note that I go out of my way to specify exactly what it is I’m against. I’m not anti-feminist. I’m anti 3rd wave gender feminism. I’ve noticed that you have a tendency to equate the two. It’s perfectly possible to be against a certain subset of feminism without opposing feminism as a whole.
They are, however, the subject of this thread. Arguably, their opinions are more important than the opinions of any one poster here. Secondly, as I’ve already said, there’s no social cost to being anti 3rd wave gender feminism here, because no-one knows what we look like, no-one knows our real names, and no-one can track us down. The women on ‘Women Against Feminism’ can’t say the same. They’re much easier to silence.
I’m not claiming to speak directly for them. I’m simply pointing out the blindingly obvious fact that taking the piss out of people for the views that they hold makes them less likely to state them, but not necessarily less likely to hold them. This is just a simple fact of human nature. It’s how it works with everything.
It is. And if you don’t agree that women should be able to choose to have their unborn child dismembered in their womb for the crime of being inconvenient, you pretty much don’t get to be a feminist even if you’re a chick.
There is so much hypocrisy and logic fail here.
You are effectively saying that feminists should refrain from mocking a tmblr blog that tries to delegitimise feminism with strawman selfies, because these anti-feminists might feel too intimidated and uncomfortable by the mocking to continue mocking feminists.
They are not specifying third wave feminism, and they are not providing constructive challenges to feminism, but you think it is unfair that their “opinions” are not taken seriously.
And then, you think it is “arguable” that their opinions are “more important” than any poster here? So what’s the point of posting if you disagree? You are advocating witnessing, which is what the OP intends with all these anti-feminists “debates”.
No one is forcing these women to post opinions on the internet without anonymity. That is their choice. Do you really believe it’s “just common sense” that women willing to do that will be intimidated into silence by a silly cat tmblr? Really? If so, that’s really too bad, because no one has the right to not be mocked for their public statements, anonymous or not.
I’m glad you have a thick skin, because I have to say I think your opinions in this thread are inane, and beyond rational discourse.
BTW, I also disagree with a lot of third wave feminism issues and tactics (which you would know if you had read any of the previous anti-feminist threads), but I wouldn’t expect them to take me seriously if I posted scrawled non sequitur and strawman selfies as a critique.
These are young girls, who obviously have little experience facing the challenges of adulthood, and I cut them some slack for that. I have no idea what your excuse is, and I don’t care to get into it with you any further here. Maybe I’ll catch you in the next anti-feminist thread. They’re like buses on this MB; another one should be along any minute.
Well, if you don’t care to continue this conversation then there’s no point in me dissecting this mess of a rebuttal. Suffice it to say that you’ve completely misrepresented both my arguments and the opinions of a great many of the women who posted to ‘Women Against Feminism’.
I went and read some of these. I think my favorite was along the lines of
“I’m not a feminist because feminists believe sex workers like me deserve to be raped and killed for being collaborationists with the patriarchy”
Bwah? Bwaaaaaaaah? If that’s what feminists believe, I guess they are pretty horrible.
The rest were divided up into “I like being a stay-at-home mom” (which, again, feminists are okay with. They just want you to have that be a choice rather than your only option), things along the lines of not liking victimization (which I think is a reasonable debate), and lots of things talking about hairy armpits and “period-stained pants.”
I liked the one about how cool it is to give up her dream and just serve her man. Who apparently respects her, But doesn’t give a damn about her deferred dream. Go girl!
At least some of the women on that Tumblr page must like this horrible “poem”:
by unknown and posted by Nancy Campbell from Above Rubies – I Want A Man
As for The one who shares my life;
It was my choice to be his wife!
And for our jobs, if I could choose,
I wouldn’t want to wear his shoes.
No, I won’t sign the lib’s petition
To do away with wife’s submission,
I’d be a fool to boss my spouse,
I want a man and not a mouse!
I do not have to prove my might
For we are equal in God’s sight,
But we’re to function differently,
God made us that way purposely.
He’s my provider, what a gem,
And I’m a helper fit for him.
To live the role God planned for me
This makes me completely free!A few days before, someone I know told me that she’s anti-feminist. She is a stay at home mother of two, with a husband that makes ~$150k. She has degrees (including a PhD) from some of the most elite colleges. She said that being a mom is the greatest thing in her life and feminism told her that she didn’t have to be a mom. If she had pursued career instead of motherhood she would have missed out. So she thought that feminism had nothing to offer to her.
I pointed out that feminism means women don’t have to choose between having a career and being a mom. That most mothers don’t have a choice because they can’t afford to not work. I did not bring up the many ways in which she would be screwed if anything happens to her marriage or husband, but for some feminism-induced policies (e.g. being able to own property in her own name, being entitled to child support, having an more equal opportunity to be educated – I myself was denied support for higher education by my parents in favor of my brother’s).
I did point out that for the many millions of parents who work, feminism pushes for policies on maternity and paternity leaves, lactation rooms and such, that make being a parent much easier.
In other words, some women are anti-feminist because of their privileged position. It is true that for a small segment of women (mostly white and upper middle class or higher, and/or conventionally attractive and young), some parts of traditional gender roles work in their favor.
That’s of course hyperboling, but yes many feminists believe prostitution (& porn) should be banned. And some feminists believe it should be banned not to protect prostitutes, but because it hurts female equality in general.
And yes, many feminists have had a very disdainful attitude towards stay at home moms – and motherhood in general. Quite odd really, since bearing children is of course a very and uniquely womanly thing to be able to do.
Yes many feminists have gone overboard hailing hairy armpits and such, and I guess the other refers to the Period Girl who ran the London Marathon without a tampon. Yes her reasons were based in feminism.
I’m a feminist and I don’t feel this way about any of these issues. Nor do the vast majority of any feminist I’ve ever spoken to, heard from, or read about, I’m pretty sure.
Ok, that’s great for you. But it is factually incorrect to state that feminism is not about that or no feminist hold such views. For some feminists this is what feminism is about. And presumable that is the kind of feminism these woman are against - and so are you apparently. They’re not against suffrage, or allowing women to hold property or such things. Nobody in the western world – outside a few nutjobs – hold such views anymore.