Women Against Feminism

Great Debates
101

No. I’m not saying feminists should refrain from mockery. I’m stating that the consequences of that mockery, whether you like it or not, are that there will inevitably be some women intimidated into being silent about their dislike of 3rd wave gender feminism. Mock all you like, but at least have the decency to OWN the damage you’re doing.

Oh, Jesus Christ. What do you think they’re against? Suffrage? Abortion rights? Workplace protections? Maternity leave? Again, it’s common sense!. They don’t have to specify 3rd Wave Gender Feminism. It’s bloody obvious.

Okay, firstly, putting the word ‘opinions’ in scare quotes doesn’t magically make these women’s opinions somehow not opinions. Secondly, there are loads of constructive challenges on ‘Women Against Feminism’. Here’s just one example:

"I don’t need or want feminism because a label is only a word, and becomes that which those who use it portray it as. The word “feminist” has become tainted and poisonous. We say no to surrounding ourselves with that, and it’s amazing how, in that regard, feminists don’t think “no means no”.
<snip>
Your regurgitated strawman arguments of “I guess you don’t like the right to vote or drive or choose” are old, outdated, and invalid, as is your constant assumption that I, nor anyone else against feminism, doesn’t know its definition; that doing so would, magically change our minds.
<snip>
We call ourselves Egalitarians because we believe in encompassing all people, regardless of sex or who one thinks is “more oppressed”.

Now, there’s plenty of room for disagreement here, obviously. But, regardless of whether this woman has succeeded or failed, you can’t deny that her post was intended as a constructive challenge.

Just read the page. There are so many more like this.

I just think the idea of 3rd wave gender feminists telling women to “Shut up” because they don’t like what they have to say about 3rd wave gender feminism is depressing, ironic, and every bit as anti-feminist as anything LinusK has posted. And I think the way that CCAF chooses to do it - that is, without trying to engage, or address any of these women’s complaints in any way - is dangerously close to “Aww, don’t you worry your pretty little heads about it girls”, especially since it’s coming from a privileged cis-gender male.

You’re right. I used the wrong word. I apologise. Their opinions are definitely more important than ours. Why? Because the subject of this thread is their opinions. They are the ultimate authority on what they think and why, not us. When 3rd wave gender feminists go out of their way to portray these women as a bunch of half-bright little ditzes who’ve no idea what 3rd wave gender feminism really is, or dishonestly try to conflate their criticism of 3rd wave gender feminism with criticism of the entire feminist movement from its inception to the present day (y’know, like you’re always doing) they’re pretending to be mind readers and completely discounting all the real world experience which may have led these women to this conclusion. How very feminist.

You’re talking about two different groups of women! The first group are the women who have sent their pictures in or are going to send their pictures in, and the second group are the women who would have sent their pictures in but now won’t because of the increased social cost for doing so thanks to sites like CCAF and others. Of course, when it comes to opponents of 3rd wave gender feminism, Futrelle and CCAF are at the mild end of the spectrum. At the other end you’ve got stuff like this:

*"I once had a feminist tell me I was “a disgusting little girl” who “didn’t understand feminism” because I like to receive compliments from men.

I had another feminist tell me I was stupid and rude for implying that not all white people are bad and telling them I have black friends."*

“I once had a feminist tell me that I was ‘cis white scum’ for not agreeing that women should be allowed to go out topless. She proceeded to tell me to kill myself.”

“I once had a feminist tell me I was an ungrateful she-cow for not needing feminism. (I live in America, we’re very well off here)”

You can find many more examples (oh, so many more) at: http://ioncehadafeministtellme.tumblr.com/

Strawman. I never said the women on ‘Women Against Feminism’ should be immune from mockery. I merely said that, whether you want to admit it or not, this mockery has a chilling effect on the discourse of women who oppose 3rd wave gender feminism, and that those who mock these women need to own up to that.

You have no grounds on which to assess these women’s levels of life experience. Some of them, judging by their posts, have clearly been through an awful lot, probably more than either of us.

I don’t plan on participating in any more anti-3rd wave gender feminism threads. If they’re all as tedious and unproductive as this one, what’s the point?

102

Given the number of posts at ioncehadafeministtellme and tumblrinaction, I’m really interested about your social circle. When it’s trivial to find hundreds of examples of feminists behaving badly, claiming that they are a tiny minority to a vast majority seems to require a sample size of thousands.

Plus, there’s that whole thing about telling people “Hey, that thing you’re complaining about a problem with a strong gender component has never happened to me and no one I know complains about it, so obviously it’s not really an issue.” I mean, I’m a man and I don’t, e.g., catcall, nor do any of my male friends that I know of, but not only am I not in a position to observe this, my social circle isn’t a representative sample of the male population.

103

I’m part of a wide circle of late-20s/early-30s women in the international relations community in DC. We hold regular events where gender and career is the primary discussion.

A big one lately has been negotiation skills when it comes to salaries, and trying to crack how we can get better at us. A few of us are new mothers, and we have been discussing how to avoid the “mommy track” when our workplaces keep trying to steer us that way. We’ve been following the “Women Can’t Have it All” article chain pretty closely, and having some good debates on it.

Other than that, it’s lots of advice on kids, some about dealing with stuff like splitting up household chores, and feminist takes on books or articles we’ve read.

Most more mature feminists are not out there making Tumblr campaigns, because we are knee deep in work, kids and life. Tumblr doesn’t represent life.

104

This is not what feminism is about as I understand it, though I accept the possibility that some feminists feel differently and actually may hold those views. I oppose anyone who tars feminism as a whole by assigning such views to feminism as a whole as opposed to some corner of it.

105

Being against wives of the 1% setting the standards for motherhood is not at all being against motherhood.

106

And you know thousands of people, well enough to detail their political opinions and style of posting on the Internet?

Again, no one’s saying that all feminists are like those aggregated on the terrible feminist aggregator sites, and no one reasonable is claiming that they’re even close to a majority. Where we seem to disagree is to what extent their numerical representation is in between “statistically-significant minority” and “rounding error”, and you need to survey a statistically-significant and representative sample of feminists to do that, or come up with a really large sample of non-terrible feminists.

We do agree on this, right? Or do I get to generalize from my experiences in tech as to how reasonable you are for worrying about bad behavior from companies related to sex-based discrimination?

107

If you want to correct “irritating netspeak,” then do it outside the quotation box. Do not violate board rules simply to express a pert peeve.

[ /Moderating ]

108

Feminism as you know it maybe, but the kind of feminism these women are confronted to and ranting against fits very well most of the statements written on these signs.

Most women would define themselves as feminists for the reasons you mentioned. But they aren’t activists. They’re just women who support equality between genders and don’t give it much of a thought besides that. There are some activists of course, sitting in comitees, writing scholarly articles, supporting some legal case or another, but they aren’t, in fact, very visible. A serious paper might interview one of them once in a while, but that’s about it. On the other hand, if you see feminist blogs (not just blogs written by some random woman who mentioned somewhere that she’s feminist), for instance, the majority of them are maintained by college-age frothing at the mouth anti-patriarchy “social warriors”. That the kind of visible people the “anti-feminist” women on this site are writing about. And it might be the only kind of “feminism” they’re familiar with.

It might have changed. I hadn’t noticed this florishing of extremist feminism until quite recently. And the web isn’t necessarily representative of people you meet in real life anyway.

You’re lacking the context. She’s refering to the abolitionist feminists who hope for the complete dissapearance of “sex work”. Besides lecturing prostitutes from their high horses, they push for laws and implementation of them that would punish harshly prostitutes and other sex workers’ clients, providers (like web site owners, renters,…), etc… (not punishing the sex workers themselves, they’re deemed victims. Sometimes rape victims since their activity is considered by some as inherently rape or sexual assault).

Besides potentially reducing the potential pool of customers and making more difficult to get in touch with them, it forces sex work into clandestinity (for instance, no way to get a verifiable phone number or to meet the client in a relatively safe place if he’s at risk to be sent to jail for years for searching for sex services or meeting the sex worker, and the place owner runs the same risk). These laws if or when implemented force prostitutes to work less openly and more dangerously. The feminists we’re talkin about are totally deaf to these arguments (and have hardly any interest in the opinion of sex workers in general unless they present themselves as reformed former sex work victims). That’s what this woman was refering to.

109

Sure, but if the majority of messages that they have written are themselves feminist (e.g., “I can fight my own battles”, “I can think for myself”, “I’m happy to have chosen to be a housewife”, etc.), then it’s not really an anti-feminism movement.

I’d go with, perhaps, anti-feminazi movement (to take from Rush Limbaugh). But that’s a movement against particular people, not against feminism.

110

I think a lot would depend on whether or not she considers her individual preferences as just that, HER INDIVIDUAL preferences (specific to her only) and not requirements or living parameters for every woman in the universe.

111

Some of the strongest feminist I know are the mothers’ of sons who work very hard to raise them as decent young men and not future date rapists. Hatred of the nuclear family has little to do with feminism and a millenniums old tradition in support of the extended family (the more stable and successful family model). In deed some forms of Mommy feminism are major supporters of the nuclear family.

112

I agree with much of what you say. But even though feminism is minority position, it exercises outsize influence on family law, criminal law, and the educational system - especially, though not only - college campuses. It also has a very definite effect on culture, although you might need to take a step back to see it.

113

It’s very influential, thankfully, and I can’t think of any significant influences from feminism on any of these categories that have been negative.

114

Wait. Patriarchy is gamed for the wealthy at the expense of everyone else - “men and women alike.”

Then… why is it called “patriarchy”?
I’m not seeing any of them saying that women should take a “step back”. Did you see it?

Because if not, I have to wonder why you’re putting words in their mouths.
You also characterize them as “young women.” This one, however, appears to be in her 60’s:

Who said women should stop going to college?

Who said that?

#1: Feminism does not equal women.

#2: There are those that think that feminism hurts women. Did you know that?

If by “ignored” you mean you use poor logic, and frequently resort to ad hominems, instead, then yes; it will be ignored.

Putting words in other people’s mouths, implying that they’re stupid, or misled, or that they hate women - these things are not true arguments. They’re attempts to shut down conversations by insulting people who disagree with you.

Well said.

115

I tread on shaky ground, because I don’t know much about them. But my impression is MRA’s don’t get it: they’ve take feminism’s claims about equality at face value, and they don’t understand the cultural role men play in society - both terrible mistakes.

116

It’s called patriarchy because the power and social structures of society were shaped by men. And even though there have been some changes, the patriarchal framework, cultural mores, and mindset still exists.

The wealthy either have power, or control the powerful, and the higher up you go on the rungs of power and influence, the more patriarchal it gets.

Of the 72 most powerful people in the world named by Forbes, only nine of them are women. About 95% of CEOs are men. Over 75% of Wall Street bankers are men. The majority of political legislative seats around the world are men. The military, defense industry, and law enforcement are dominated by men. Who’s got all the weapons? Men. Who’s got their fingers on the buttons, knows the codes to set off Armageddon? Men. Here in the US, we have yet to see a female President or Vice-President.

So yes, this system is gamed for the wealthy and powerful few, at the expense of the majority, both men and women.

But the influence of cultural patriarchy is in play as well: We are descended from ethnic cultures that are patriarchal. The three major religions are patriarchal. The majority of US women follow the patrilineal custom of taking their husband’s surname when they marry, as will their children. These are some of the things that perpetuates both the mindset and acceptance of a patriarchal society.

How can anyone think there is no such thing as patriarchy? It doesn’t mean that all men are equally powerful. It’s not about individuals, it’s a societal framework. And as it’s been said, over and over, it limits most men as well. Both the power structure and the mindset.

I said it. It was a question, a theoretical question, as in: What could these people want? And if you note the preceding paragraph I was referring to anti-feminists in general, not the tmblr women. I never claimed anyone in particular said those things.

And the vast, vast majority of those selfies are young women. I saw only two, maybe three older women, including the one you cherry picked. I didn’t imply they were stupid. Young, inexperienced, and/or ignorant does not equal stupid. But it can’t be denied that there were a lot of non sequiturs and strawman arguments on those signs.

So I’ll ask specifically: What do these women want? They say they are living life as they choose, and thinking for themselves. So what’s the problem? Some other women think differently, or hurt their feelings on the internet? They’re under attack and intimidated by a cat parody site? Why should I take this seriously?

#1 Right. Do I need to go back to your previous threads against feminism and quote how often you used women in place of feminists as a descriptor? Who was it that would have a hard time killing bugs if all the men went away? Only feminists? Are feminists the only ones making the false rape accusations or getting the child custody and support you’re always banging on about? Please.

#2 How could I not, when you start a thread about it every 15 minutes?

I put no words in anyone’s mouth. That’s your comprehension skills, which have been an ongoing issue in all your threads. You clearly have a hard time recognizing sarcasm, rhetorical questions, nuance, interpreting complex data… FFS, you’re a defense lawyer who claims sexual assault is a “particularly difficult charge to defend”, in spite of all the evidence that says otherwise. It seems like you’re willing to go to any lengths to maintain your belief that feminism is all powerful and the root of all evil.

And btw, it’s laughable for you to claim that anyone is trying to shut down your conversations, when at any given time you’ve got a thread going on about your pet topics. I only wonder what feminist related website or rape case article you’ll “just happen to come across” next, in order to start yet another thread about it.

117

What is it you think they misunderstand about the cultural role men play in society?

I would agree that they misunderstand, but I would pin practically identical misunderstandings on you.

I mean, you’re a fan of Karen Straughan, in the sense that you often refer to her stuff positively–and she is a central case of MRA beliefs. If you think she’s right about most things, then you are an MRA yourself.

118

I doubt it. More likely is that they are “confronted to and ranting against” an image of feminism they find from anti-feminist sources in their facebook or tumblr feeds or whatever.

119

Definitely not a feminist position: feminists are all over Title IX, to the extent it forces schools to redirect money from men’s sports to women, but they never advocated men competing with women. Nobody’s advocated that, because it would be stupid.

I did see a female basketball team playing a male basketball team once: it was the University’s team playing against a local High School.

120

She seems to agree.