I want to emphasize that I am not trying to convince the men in that thread that they were wrong, exactly. I just don’t think they realize how incredibly prevalent this sort of thing is, and I was mildly annoyed with the implication that women who are concerned with the potential of violence from men are unreasonably paranoid. Women tend not to talk about the small things that add up because we’re told to get over it, it’s not a big deal, and we’re overreacting. The big things…well, there’s a lot of shame and second-guessing. Maybe I should have dressed differently. Maybe I shouldn’t have been drunk. If I tell anyone, they’ll think I’m a slut. I mean, everyone knows that sexual violence occurs, but sometimes I think that many people - men and women both - are unaware of how common it is.
Another online community I participate in recently (as in, last week, so this is all very fresh in my mind) had a big time kerfuffle about sexual misconduct and blaming the victim, who apparently shouldn’t have been in the situation in the first place. In the wake of that, many, many women told their own stories of sexual abuse and violence. I know I was shocked. I was assaulted myself, and hardly anyone knows about it. I have kept it largely a secret for years, and it was astonishing to realize how many women have similar stories, that they have also kept secret. Almost none of them (including myself) had reported the crimes to the authorities. I’ve been feeling very on edge about this issue since this went down and I admit that I’m really laser-focused on it at the moment.
Anyway. Thank you to everyone who has shared their experiences.
I agree - and actually, I kind of hope your last point is right. That people just don’t realise how often this happens. Because otherwise, that says something about them that isn’t great, if they know and still insist we’re weird for worrying about it happening again.
I want to thank you for starting this thread - I’ve got my own messed up stories I don’t talk about, have tried to forget about, and which still affect me from time to time. It’s helpful (though awful) to see reminders that other people also deal with similar shit and that it really isn’t something about me that was the problem. And it infuriates me when women are told we’re not paying enough attention to our surroundings when we’re raped - and then we’re paranoid and offensive when we treat men as if they are potential rapists, which is the logical outcome of all the “personal safety” advice women are bombarded with. Can’t win, really.
And to whoever it was (my apologies for forgetting your name!) who suggested that women are wrong to be scared of, or even bothered by, overt male sexual interest, I hope the stories in this thread have helped to give a little context as to why people might be bothered by it. Often, men are bad at taking no for an answer, and women are frequently criticised for leading men on when things go badly. These situations start with the overt expression of sexual interest by a man. People don’t know at the beginning of a conversation how it’s going to end, so it’s not unreasonable for a woman to assume it might go the same way as previous similar conversations - which for some have had very bad endings.
I think that would be me and I apologize to anyone I may have offended by my comments. It was never my intent to imply that rape/assault doesn’t occur. I am that the experiences you have all had make you scared and bothered by overt male sexual interest.
Say I’m interested in a woman, either romantically or just sexually. What can I do or avoid doing that will eliminate or reduce the extent to which she’s scared or bothered by my showing interest?
Presume I’m socially skilled enough to not proposition her right there or do other things that are illegal (I’m adding this qualifier so we can skip over the bleedingly obvious).
Well, obviously I’m not all women - and it is worth emphasising that not all women have my long list of trust issues! Not everyone is going to be bothered by being hit on - and of those that are, sometimes it’s just going to be a straw that broke the camel’s back type thing - nothing wrong with you personally. And at my most insane, there’s nothing anyone else could have done to make it ok, because it was my head that was fucked up. So, there’s an extent to which you can’t affect the outcome because other factors that you don’t know about come into play.
I dunno, I feel weird about giving any sort of advice in these situations, because I’m sure my experience is not applicable to other people, so what bothers me probably looks utterly stupid to others, or is stating the obvious. I mean, things like making sure I wasn’t backed into a corner/against a table, etc before expressing a keen interest would help. (Yes, there are men who think this is a good idea, presumably not consciously.) Tall men standing a bit further back than they normally would - I’m 5’3, so almost everyone is taller than me, but standing right up close and looming over me can be a little intimidating. But these are fairly obvious things that I’m sure everyone does already without thinking about it.
Read this article: Schrödinger’s Rapist to start. There will be some women who are NEVER comfortable with being approached by a strange man in public. There will be some women who, when approached by a strange man who says “Wanna fuck?” will agree to it. Most women are in between, and your actions can usually tip the balance. But remember that no means no.
I feel like some of the author’s reactions are over the top, but the fantastic point that I can behind get 100% is that if men want to earn the trust of women they need to show that they listen and respect their boundaries. Buying me a drink, interrupting me or calling me when I ask you not to doesn’t mean that you are a rapist, but it does increase the probability that you’re more likely to disregard my boundaries and desires in other settings, up to and including, sexual contact.
On the other hand, the problem we have in this country isn’t really with strangers. Most sexual assaults are perpetrated by a person the victim knows and trusts. It’s for this reason I don’t tend to worry too much about a random guy on a subway.
The author’s whole argument is based on the idea that 1 in 6 women is raped. The statistics she cites says 1 in 6 women is sexually assaulted.
I never suspected that “Looking out the window, reading a book, working on a computer, arms folded across chest, body away from you” mean “do not disturb”.
“But do you think about it all the time? Is preventing violent assault or murder part of your daily routine, rather than merely something you do when you venture into war zones?”
Do most women think about it all the time? Are most under the same kind of stress as people in war zones? Aren’t most victims of violent assault and murder men?
So, I shouldn’t approach if a woman is doing any activity, even looking out the window, and presume she is under the same psychological stress as people in warzones?
Personally I think that perspective is ridiculous. I have PTSD and I don’t worry about rape and sexual assault half as much time as this woman claims the average woman does. I do not think about rapists on the subway, at work, in the car, or even walking to my car in the dark. This idea that men are to be presumed guilty until proven innocent really bothers me. Even if 1 in 60 men was a rapist, then it would be irrational to assume every guy you meet is a potential threat.
I tend to assume someone is trustworthy until they prove to me that they aren’t. That doesn’t mean compromising my safety by getting alone with a complete stranger or going somewhere unfamiliar without covering my ass somehow. If someone I know reasonably well seems to ignore whatever social boundaries I’ve established, there’s no way in hell I’m going to go somewhere alone with him.
Yes, if you look at a woman, and she’s engaged in some other activity, that DOES mean “Do not disturb”. Even if she’s looking out a window, the chances are high that she’s not interested in being approached. You can glance at her now and then, and give her a friendly smile if your eyes meet. If she smiles back, then you can approach her. If she looks away, then she’s not interested. Really. Most women get approached (and propositioned) on a regular basis, whether they want to be or not. A woman who is in public is NOT necessarily looking for a date or a mate.
And no, most victims are not men. Nor are they women. I don’t know the exact numbers, but far more women get sexually assaulted than men, and that’s what we have to worry about, and that’s why we sometimes seem unfriendly. If we give ANY encouragement to certain men, they stalk and harass, in the mistaken impression that we’re interested in them. Ask just about any woman, and she can tell you of her own personal nightmare of The Man Who Could Not Accept No. Most men aren’t like this, which is why more women aren’t lesbians. But the guys who ARE like this will leave a bitter taste in one’s mouth.
But yeah, rape and sexual assault victims frequently suffer PTSD.
I missed this. Survivors of rape and sexual assault have far higher rates of PTSD than any other trauma, including combat veterans. So men being more frequently victims of violent assault isn’t really the issue. The issue is who is more frequently the victim of rape and sexual assault.
I’ve posted extensively on this in the past:
Does Early Psychological Intervention Prevent Posttraumatic Stress? by Richard McNally, Richard A. Bryant and Anke Ehlers.
There also appears to be a gendered component to PTSD:
What this means is, women are both more likely to experience rape and sexual assault and more likely to develop PTSD following a trauma than men.
Anyone who genuinely cares about this subject should probably read my full original post. It contains a great deal of insight into the psychology of trauma. People take for granted a lot of assumptions that have no basis in the literature on this subject.
So while it is unreasonable that every woman feels as if she is always in a war zone, it is not unreasonable that some women feel that they are in a war zone at least some of the time. Rape and sexual assault can be profoundly psychologically damaging. Many women know that, because we have grown up around it and with it all our lives. This is one reason some are so afraid.
As soon as I’d voted I began to think I should have also checked *I have been made to feel uncomfortable in a sexual situation by a man I thought I could trust. * However on further thought I didn’t actually have a lot of trust in that particular guy at that time.
In fact my upbringing, with a lot of veiled warnings from my mother about what men were like, led me to be very untrusting. In some ways this is something I have had to unlearn as most men IMO are not a threat. On the other hand I’m pretty sure it also protected me whilst I got my own personal shit detector on line.
You didn’t mention being married- there was no way for me to have known from your story. You’re right, it was inappropriate. But your being married and the attention being inappropriate isn’t what you cited as your reason for being upset:
So if I made a thread asking for advice on how to ask out a cute coworker that I liked you’d respond in the thread telling me “oh, she’s a woman and you just have to go there”?
There’s a complicated set of variables within this, but it all boils down to “do his actions show that he is going to respect my boundaries?” as a baseline for whether he can be trusted. I have more male friends than female friends, and one thing that I have learned as I grew up is to watch how a person interacts with me when we initially meet-- how do they interact with me, and what seems to be their major motivation for getting to know me? Some men will approach with purely sexual intent and do not respect boundaries right away; flirting does not necessarily indicate that they’re not going to respect boundaries, but questioning a negative reaction to their flirting does. It is especially indicative of questionable intent if I mention that I am not interested/not single/not wanting sexual attention from them and the flirting gets more intense, physical contact of a sexual nature commences, or the person continues to question whether I am sure of my feelings about the situation.
Exactly. I do what I can to make sure that boundaries are clear. If I back up, that means I need more personal space than the person is giving me. If I come in closer, it’s not necessarily an indication of sexual intent-- it just means I’m interested in what you’re saying or am comfortable with you. I’m a very physical person, and am prone to platonic displays of closeness with my friends; I am a hugging-touching-cuddly person with people I am very comfortable with, but I consider all of these things to be platonic displays of bonding.
I’ve had this happen, and on more than one occasion. Not necessarily in a “stuck in a crowd” situation, but a “the guy is not taking the hint and is so caught up in his own arousal that he’s ignoring my boundaries” situation. I’ve also had men grab me in a sexual manner when I didn’t want it-- whether it be caressing my neck in a sexual way/attempt to arouse, grabbing my crotch/breasts or just running their hands over my body in a way that cannot be confused for a nonsexual touch, it was unwanted and showed disrespect for the boundaries that I put forth.
There have been occasions in the past where I have had that kind of sexual contact in a consensual manner, but normally in those situations, I’m responding VERY differently to the signals being sent-- I’m flirting back, coming in closer to the person, saying things that indicate interest, and usually I’m the initiator of said sexual contact. There is a very big difference between how I behave when I am interested in a person and when I am not, and a big part of whether I consider the same behavior wanted or unwanted stems from how appropriate their reaction is to my own behavior.
For the record, I checked “I have been made to feel uncomfortable in a sexual situation by a man I thought I could trust”, “I have been made to feel uncomfortable in a sexual situation by a male stranger”, and “I have been raped by a male stranger”. I would categorize the unwanted touching in combination with unwanted flirting in the first two categories, and not under assault for my own purposes-- very rarely have I been made to feel uncomfortable by inappropriate verbal approaches without some sort of attempt at sexual touching occurring. The rape incident was probably date rape-- I was hanging out with a friend, her boyfriend and the boyfriend’s friend at the boyfriend’s friend’s house. The friend and her boyfriend left me alone with the guy, and he forced himself on me; between me being nervous and scared of the guy, I couldn’t manage to stop him and completely froze while he peeled my clothes off and penetrated me. For some reason, instead of defending myself, it was as if my mind had shut off and I wasn’t a part of my own body while it was happening. Took me about three days to get to a point where I could connect what happened with it happening to me, and it took me months to get to a point where I was starting to feel any sense of comfort around unfamiliar men again.
These days, it’s rare that I am made to feel uncomfortable when unwanted flirting occurs, and it’s usually when someone persists or takes my refusal to cooperate as a reason to continue flirting with increased intensity. Most men respect clearly drawn boundaries, and will not get to a point where they make me uncomfortable. A lot of it is based in context-- it’s not necessarily okay to hit on me while I’m at work (happens frequently enough, but is not something to make me uncomfortable), if only for the fact that the majority of interaction of that type is worker-customer and not coworker-coworker based. Why is it less okay for a person to hit on me as a customer than it is for a coworker? The major reason has to do with the fact that I’m generally in a situation where it is expected for me to be friendly with customers and turning someone down may be construed as unfriendly behavior-- really, you’re putting me in a difficult spot because my job is about giving good service, not finding a date. If I’m working with you, it’s okay to tell me you like me/are interested in a date, but really, it’s only okay once if I respond negatively. Be up front and don’t add in physical contact or overt sexual tones-- this isn’t a nightclub and just saying “hey, would you be interested in going on a date?” is sufficient. I will, however, assume that “hey, let’s go to lunch” from a coworker is platonic, as we work together and it’s assumed that we’re doing it as a “work group bonding” experience, not as a date. If you want a date, ask for a date, but accept it if he/she says no.
Actually, kind of, yes. I’m still not very good at outright telling people to fuck off, though I’ve got better at it, and I rely more than I ought to on body language. So yes, me looking out of the window, or doing anything else other than making eye contact and smiling at you - and I’m sure on this I’m not the only one - pretty much does mean “leave me alone, I’m not interested”. When I’m out in public I generally want to go and do whatever it is I’m busy doing, not have to deal with people hitting on me. Being outside while female is not an open invitation to hit on me, and when you’re the 4th person who’s come up to me that week while I’m waiting for a train home, minding my own business and reading my book, I feel like a bitch when I tell you no, and then I’m pissed off that I feel like a bitch for being perfectly reasonable. We’d all be a lot happier if people just didn’t approach me in the first place…
I’m going to crosspost from the thread linked, as it describes the viewpoints on display here as well.
All these supposed “rules” about when she’s in a leave-me-alone state are not about what the guy does, it’s about how attractive the guy is. Brad Pitt (or whoever tickles your fancy) can approach any way he likes and not get called creepy - it’s only undesirable males who are creepy.
Your bitterness is showing. This just isn’t true - attractive men are at least as likely to be hassley as “ugly” men. It’s the being approached when I’m clearly busy in the first place and not backing off when I make it clear I’m not interested that is intimidating, offensive and upsetting. The attractiveness of the person hassling me really doesn’t come into it. You think attractive men don’t rape and sexually assault women, perhaps?
It was never my intent to imply that rape/assault doesn’t occur. I am 
Do you have problems reading body language in general? Because this one is really, really basic.