Knee-jerk shaming language irrelevant to the argument.
That’s cheap to say online, since making that claim doesn’t actually cost you any opportunity to meet attractive men. In reality everyone is more open to approaches from, and will make more allowances for the behavior of, attractive people of the opposite sex. Trivially, men likewise tolerate a wider range of behavior from attractive women that they would characterize as overly forward coming from an unattractive one. Now of course there are limits - an out and out bitch would get rejected fast, just as a truly creepy guy would be regarded as creepy regardless of his charm. But they’ll get a lot more leeway than a plain Jane or a dumpy Joe.
Now I’m not saying that these preferences are evil or even unusual. But we should recognize that they are simply that - selfish preferences rooted in Darwinian behavior - not ironclad rules of conduct. We should try to satisfy the preferences of strangers whenever it is convenient to us, but we should not regard them as some sort of strong moral rule.
Yeah, I’ve read that. I think Kate Harding has…issues, put it lightly. But there’s a certain kind of online feminist, I’ve noticed, who goes around looking for things like…I don’t know, line drawings as evidence that we’re in a “rape culture.”
I mean, I’ve been sexually assaulted once but I don’t go around like we’re in a war zone. I’ve NEVER done the “If I don’t call you by 3 PM, you go to the police” thing. If anyone suggested it to me, I think I’d just laugh. Honestly, if I’m approached by a guy, I don’t really think, “OMG, he’s BOTHERING me.”
When I used to comment on Jezebel, I remember women talking about how every day is a battlefield for a woman and how frightening it is to be a woman and I was all, “Uh, I don’t feel that way,” and most of them seemed to think I was very ignorant. But I think buying into that mentality is the real “oppression.” Rape or assault by a stranger is rarer than that by a person you know. (Of course, the reaction to that was that they don’t trust statistics–they trust their own experiences.)
I also can’t help thinking that if you go through the world thinking that a guy approaching a woman is some kind of Schroedinger’s Rapist that maybe you’re seeing things through a screen that’s going to color your experiences. Not that it’ll get you raped but just that you’re going to interpret innocuous experiences as “Rape culture!” and “patriarchy!” and all that fun stuff.
But you essentially saying I’m lying about the way I feel when men hit on me is perfectly ok? You don’t have to believe me - quite clearly you have no intention of doing so - but it is true, nonetheless. Hitting on someone who clearly isn’t interested and not taking no for an answer is intimidating and inappropriate, no matter how attractive you are.
This thread highlights how common sexual assault and rape are - these things are not just done by unattractive people, and when women react to men as if they were a threat, we don’t do it based on how attractive they are, but how much of a physical threat they could pose if they decide they don’t want to take no for an answer. At least, I do, and I have no reason to believe I’m unique in this.
I think you’re missing something. A common thread here is this " I told him no and he kept adavancing". I don’t care how good-looking you are, please do not bulldoze over me. Do you see that?
Also, I wish you would not trivialize the discussion by saying “supposed rules”. This isn’t about some make-believe womens’ “rulz to live by”. This is women trying to express how some behaviors make them feel threatened. Looks are immaterial. Some of the most egregious behaviour I’ve had to put up with was from fraternity boys at the university I went to. Some of them were damn handsome.
Why is it that you’re so resistant to the idea that the most common female experience is a different one from for instance your own? You’ve just been told precisely the opposite of what you’re claiming is the truth – that it’s more about the shattering of the little personal bubble we all walk around in (or attempt to walk around in) much of the time than it is about the attractiveness of the person doing the shattering. Yet you’re insisting again that you’ve got the clinically accurate perspective.
How the hell do you know? How many times a day/week/month do you get accosted in public with remarks upon your sexual characteristics? The answer to that is zero, or something very close to it. How many times after an initial advance upon you was rebuffed has a person continued to follow you and insist that you talk a while, or insult you, or crowd you a little more? The answer to that is zero. So you can state with some conviction that obviously, while you might object to it from an ugly person, you’d be thrilled if it happened and it was a really attractive person. Because it never happens, and things that never happen aren’t really that intrusive. For women, lots of women, it happens all the time. It is a different experience.
And they are here saying that, when it happens, it’s invasive because it’s invasive, not if/because it doesn’t get them all hot and bothered. What do you know about it that you can contradict that? You think your presumed understanding of biology and psychology trumps the actual human experiences of as many women as you’d like to interview on the subject?
Sure. As an example, here’s a bit from Lynn Bodoni upthread:
Note the imperative tone. Her statement was made not as “this is how I prefer social interactions to go,” but rather “These are the rules, and if you violate them you are a lesser [creepy] person,” trying to be as morally weighty as, say, not telling lies, or not stealing.
What I’m pointing out is that these ideas about boundaries are not in fact as morally legitimate as the prohibition against stealing, but are drawn by individual preference, and at different distances by different women in this thread. And while in this thread they are stated as “this is what you should do”, in real life it’s more about who you are - and these “rules” are applied in highly selective fashion.
So what I’m saying is that these preferences are just that: preferences. And while it’s nice to honor preferences (say, not blasting music out of your headphones loud enough for others to hear), it’s not some sort of moral imperative not to talk to strangers on the bus, as some folks on this thread are claiming it to be.
Edit: and this is about random approaches as in the scenario outlined by Lynn Bodoni, please stop dragging rape and assault into it in order to stir up emotions.
In my world, it’s as much of a moral imperative as anything can be not to make people uncomfortable deliberately, just because you feel like it. My right to do something to someone else doesn’t trump their right to feel safe and secure while they’re out living their lives. I’m not sure I’d like to live in your world.
This thread is about rape and assault. In an effort to explain how common it is, and to provide some context to the threat women can feel that straight men pose. Perhaps you’re thinking of another thread where you wanted to invalidate the actual experience of everyone else speaking…
I’ve found the basic concept of ‘Schrodiger’s Rapist’ from this piece very helpful in explaining to guys that while YOU are a wonderful human being who would never, ever sexually assault someone, I have to treat you as though you’re a possible rapist until I know otherwise, and why that woman on the bus is ignoring you.
FWIW, I’ve been the recipient of the attentions of a flasher at a bus stop, and been felt up by a random stranger as about 40 people jammed into a tiny bus shelter during an insane hailstorm, packing together very closely. Obviously this means that I ought not to wait for buses, or I’m asking for it.
It’s funny. He’s perfectly demonstrating the very attitude most of us are talking about. Refusing to accept women at their word, refusing to acknowledge boundaries, refusing to step back when asked. It’s all about his perceptions, his wants, his standards.
And moreover, this idea that what determines sexual assault is the person and not the conduct is counter-productive and highly self-fulfilling, especially combined with traditional notions of what rape is and what it is not. A handsome man is more likely to get away with rape because of that perception, which outcome makes it easier for certain people to commit rape in the future.
Because did this man, with his six figure salary, those teeth, and those shoes, really need to resort to rape? Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, it just doesn’t add up.
Thank you. Okay, first of all I think she isn’t being imperative in her post there. Of course we all read intent into these posts and sometimes I get it wrong too. I think she was trying to be helpful to the person who asked the question.
From a social interaction standpoint, I think it’s well known that a person shows interest with eye contact and smiling. We all should know that if we don’t get that from a person then they aren’t interested. I think the moral weight in the posts of this thread come from “you’re invading my space and you won’t stop” which I do think is very rude behavior. If the person crowding me and refusing to stop is bigger/stronger than I am then it is threatening, or bullying behavior, which is morally wrong IMO.
Here I think you do sound bitter. Each person has the right to set their own boundaries, their own personal space or “bubble”. Whatever reasoning they use to choose that is none of our business. You do sound like “good looking guys get further into the bubble” in a complaining way but maybe I’m reading that wrong. Is that the meaning you meant to convey?
Well this thread was about sexual assault, so that’s what I’m discussing. Random people on the bus who talk to me or who won’t talk to you aren’t the meat of this discussion.
Exactly. And it feeds an unwarranted bitterness. Those shallow bitches. If I were Brad Pitt they would be falling all over me. I’m not doing anything wrong. Those boundaries are artificial. Those are just feminazi rules meant to oppress men. You women don’t really know what you want. No means yes.
I’ve been reading some of the discussion about this kerfuffle, and one of the things that chilled me the most was the fact that this process of victim-blaming goes as far as the criminal trials of the assaulters.
athelas - have a look at the poll results. While twice as many people report rape by someone they thought they could trust as report rape by a stranger, more people report being harassed by strangers than by familiar people. And it’s a large number too. You will have to accept that this is something that happens and it happens to women who are behaving reasonably and minding their own business. When I’m sitting on a bus or train alone, I definitely don’t want people to approach me or bother me, regardless of whether they’re men or women. I’m just trying to get somewhere, not make new friends. The problem isn’t that all women are afraid of rape or assault, it’s that if a man doesn’t want people to bother him on the bus this is just because he doesn’t want to be bothered. If a woman doesn’t, it’s because she’s being judgmental, or unreasonable, or a crazy feminist, or paranoid.
No. Two of the situations where I was at risk for being date raped (described above) involved very handsome guys - not only handsome but the type of guy women are supposed to fall over themselves for. One was pre-med going to an Ivy League school with wealthy parents. God, I liked him. He was everything I was interested it - except respectful of my boundaries - handsome, smart, well read, cultured. I’d accepted a date with him and was really excited about it. But my idea of a first date does not involve me putting my mouth on a man’s penis.
Can’t remember what the other guy was majoring in, but he was also very handsome.
Just because a girl gets wet, does not mean she actually WANTS to have sex. And if she is saying NO, that means NO, even if her eyes say “yes.”
Ha! I’m not surprised someone knows what I’m talking about. “Kerfuffle” isn’t really a strong enough word for what happened. “Online shrieking match and subsequent brawl” might be closer. I think everyone in fandom has heard about it by now.
I’m not intentionally being obfuscatory. If you want to read what happened, there’s a write-up at Unfunny Business, but it is VERY long and VERY complicated and this post I just linked to has almost 800 comments.
You’re right. I was getting more and more angry about what he was saying and this calmed me down. He is the type of person we’re talking about, the kind who just don’t get it.
I also suspect that he is an unattractive man who has been turned down by many women and this is how he makes it be their fault. I mean who in their right mind would go into a thread, where people have told about their most painful experiences, and blame them and their “wrong” attitudes.