Women and sexual assault.

In My Humble Opinion
121

Your whole post was well said, Jimmy, but these bits were particularly clear, I thought.

You, as a man approaching a girl, may well know that you don’t mean anything more than just being friendly, or even wanting to ask her out for a drink or something. But she doesn’t know that. And she doesn’t know how you’re going to react if she turns you down. So she might well be nervous, or annoyed, or all kinds of reactions - if you’re prepared to take her reaction seriously, understand that it’s probably not personal, and not push her to change her mind and talk to you because you don’t mean any harm, you’re not part of the problem.

(Also the extent to which it’s ok to approach strangers varies depending on location, I think - in London, people would assume you’re insane for talking to strangers on public transport. In small villages, maybe not so much.)

122

Honestly, it’s probably more about where and when, than how. Approaching people in a bar, or when you’re in a class together or something, not a problem, as long as you don’t start drooling over her and groping her without saying even hi.

Coming up to someone who’s just minding their own business, getting on with their life, waiting for friends, buying coffee, whatever - there really isn’t a good way of doing this, it’s always going to be intrusive. Taking “no” for an answer without pushing, making sure you don’t physically pen the woman in without thinking about it, those mitigate the effect, but it’s still not likely to be welcome.

123

I think the big thing is to just do things to imply that you understand that the other person has boundaries, needs and feelings of their own and show you will not trample over them. If someone gets signs that you do not care or respect their boundaries or wants over minor things (talking over them, interrupting them, not listening, not picking up on hints, etc) they can assume that behavior will carry over to other stuff too.

I don’t know. As a guy it can get frustrating, hurtful and embarrassing because if you put 100 different women in a room, there will be diversity in their opinions of what is acceptable or not. It sucks to know that one womans definition of a situation that leads to a nice conversation is another woman’s definition of a situation with a perceived potential rapist.

In college I remember once approaching a woman while she was putting her sweatshirt on over her t-shirt to leave a store and go outside. She didn’t mind and we talked for several minutes. To another woman, I would’ve been a potential rapist. I’m sure some of the women on this board will read that situation and think I was a potential rapist if I did that to them. But the woman I did it to didn’t mind and seemed happy that I was talking to her.

But for the most part if you listen to the other person when they talk, read their body language and voice tone, can pick up on hints (positive and negative) and respond to those rather than steamrolling the other person, for the most part you should be fine.

124

Good points Wesley. I agree that 100 different women will give 100 different opinions, that’s why I advised my sons to always proceed with caution.

125

Actually, I was looking for that option since it describes a few experiences I’ve had and the wording on some of the others was a bit odd (“made to feel uncomfortable in a sexual situation”? Um, well, no, but made to feel uncomfortable/threatened in a sexual WAY in an otherwise non-sexual situation, yes)

My cousin and I were once surrounded in some woods behind our school by a group of 5 or 6 boys our age or a bit older (12 or 13, we were) and what had begun as a bullying situation quickly turned into a potential gang rape. No doubt in my mind, to this day, that we would have both been raped and/or beaten had my older male cousin (16 at the time) not come looking for us and burst onto the scene, scattering the thugs and rescuing us.

I don’t really count the number of times I was groped, pursued, the recipient of obscene phone calls and stalking by boys my own age who DIDN’T corner me in the woods with sticks and rocks and threaten to rape me, though maybe I should. :rolleyes: I tend to put that down to horny boys with poor social skills, not “assault”.

One of them, the 13 yr old son of a boyfriend of my mom’s, had a MAD lust on me and whenever we spent time together (as we often did due to the relationship between our parents) he was all over me, literally and figuratively.

Another, a 15 yr old classmate who lived around the corner from me, stalked me, called me at night for months doing the heavy breathing shit, tried to corner me in dark alleys and corners, etc…But again, I never felt assualted or threatened, just annoyed. :stuck_out_tongue:

When I was 16, an older (mid-20’s) male friend of my mother’s boyfriend hired me to housesit for him while he was out of town. Except he didn’t GO out of town…he got me to his house and spent the night trying to fuck me. He finally took my repeated “No’s” for an answer and went to bed, leaving me to sleep on the couch. Then came back at 3 am or so and gave it another go, to no avail. I sent him back to bed. (FTR, never touched me, just verbally tried to get me to go to bed with him). A very polite “almost rapist”. Had he not been so polite (or scared of going to jail, perhaps) it could have ended much differently. The next morning, he made me breakfast and drove me home. I never told my mother and he never made any further efforts.

So I guess 2 “almost rapes” is my tally thus far. And of course, probably an average amount of lecherous looks, workplace harrasment, unsolicited/unwelcome sexual comments and/or advances, and stalkers.

I count myself lucky. I know several women who have been sexual abused as a child by family members or strangers (one who was raped at 14 by a family friend), or who were raped as adults (one at knifepoint in a grocery store parking lot in her car by a stranger).

So while I don’t consider every unwanted advance a form of rape (that really diminishes the actual crime, imo) neither do I discount the sort of sexual assaults I’ve experienced as “no big deal”.

At the least, my experiences made me vary cautious of men in general. I only had a few dates before I met the wonderful man I was with for 23 yrs. and now that I am a widow facing the prospect of eventually dating/interacting in sexual situations with men again, I have that same caution and find it hard to trust that men are not going to be 1. a nutjob stalker 2. a potential rapist 3. both.
I am more cautious than maybe I should be, but even when I logically know that I am being so, it is difficult to overcome that gut instinct. I guess that could be considered a symptom of “sexual abuse/assault”, huh? :confused:

126

Yeah, I’ve been hearing about it from metafandom on Livejournal. I just realized my post was kind of confusing, because the criminal trials I was talking about weren’t anything to do with the ‘kerfuffle’ itself but rather a discussion about victim blaming that split off from ‘kerfuffle’-related discussions.

127

It’s important to remember that the respondents to this thread are hardly a representative sample of the population. How unrepresentative they are is hard to say, rape statistics are notoriously controversial, but it isn’t actually the case that every woman you meet has these stories. Also, think about the dynamics of a thread like this. If you don’t have a story, you don’t have anything to post, do you? And, if your story isn’t “major,” you probably only post once, right?

This isn’t a criticism of the topic at hand. I see the same dynamic pretty much every “share your experiences with X” thread whether X be a computer company or a major life event.

128

The issue of what constitutes “creepy” vs a benign or even welcome expression of interest/appreciation is, admitedly, highly subjective. But I’ll offer my personal opinion.

Strangers on the street making cat-calls or other lewd comments…Creepy (and RUDE).

Elderly gentleman who notices your legs and comments, “NICE”, oddly enough, NOT creepy. (actual encounter, and it could have gone either way, but in this case, was not creepy)

Weird neighbor who comes to the pool and watches me swim and makes comments like, “You’re really pretty.” and “You have nice legs.” WAY creepy.

Guy on the train who stares at you (with special focus on your breasts) for 20 minutes as you read and/or makes sexually explicit comments…creepy.

Guy on the train who glances at you, maybe makes eye contact and smiles then looks away or makes conversation…hmmm. A nice, flattering little buzz.

Co-worker or boss who makes sexually loaded comments or inapproproriate contact…creepy.

Co-worker who expresses an interest in a polite way and makes eye (as opposed to TIT) contact…not so creepy.

It really has nothing to do with looks/appearance, imo. And it can be a very subtle thing, a thin line between ok and NOT ok. It has much more to do with the energy and the intent involved. Yeah, the polite guy on the train or at work probably wants to fuck me just like the creepy guys, but he goes about it in a much more respectful, appropriate way than the creeps do. :smiley:

129

Or to be told that if I say I take my time in trusting someone, and don’t immediately leap into bed with anyone, that I not only have “trust issues,” but that I’m faking them because I want attention.

Yeah, that pissed me off.

130

Darlin’, women have sex drives too. Some women even have very high sex drives.

What we’re saying is that being intimidated, threatened, harassed, or otherwise not having our boundaries respected is a real mood-killer (to say the least).

131

What makes the respondents so unrepresentative of the general population? And right now, 23 respondents are saying that they’ve never had any experiences like the ones outlined in the polls. So it’s not accurate that this thread is demonstrating that “every woman has these stories”. But if you are hypothesizing that the sample statistics are significantly skewed from the population mean, I would respectfully disagree. Like you say, it’s difficult to get accurate statistics, but I would say that the results here are holding true with my own anecdotal experience from talking with my girlfriends. For instance, if you subtract the number of respondents who did not participate in the survey and redo the math, 17.39% of respondents report have been raped. And according to at least one study, the percentage of American women who were the victims of rape or attempted rape was…17.6%.

Obviously, this is not perfect statistical alignment because 1. this poll is not scientific 2. it’s not limited to Americans and 3. the questions aren’t actually the same. But they’re similar enough that we can make an unscientific assumption that the results this poll is getting are not wildly out of alignment with the population as a whole. In my opinion.

132

I voted. I have never been raped, due to a large number of factors, but I did check the first four boxes. I am sure every woman I have ever met in my life could check at least one of the first few.

133

To the men in this thread who get huffy about being treated as a potential rapist/attacker: Your feelings are not more important than my safety.

134

That’s your choice to make. It’s also their choice to make to dislike and disrespect you for treating them like potential criminals when they’ve done nothing. Treat men like scum when they’ve done nothing, and they aren’t going to like you very much.

135

I’d say it’s one of the biggest boner killers of all. If you’re on your way to meet a date or to go home to your husband and some stranger presses against you on the subway or tells you you he wants to masturbate to your hot tits, you may laugh it off but you may feel like shit. All night. And it’s hard to feel sexy when you’re feeling ashamed of your body and its potential to bring about creepy, dirty comments from asshole strangers (however irrational a reaction that may be). So these bonerkillers are bad for everyone.

136

Surely you can be cautious about someone without treating them like scum.

137

Every time I talk about my own experiences in the context of ‘‘women’s issues,’’ some guy inevitably comes along and says, ‘‘Well you realize you’re in a tiny, tiny minority of people who have had this experience, right?’’

My question is, how do YOU know? Do you think it’s something women volunteer in normal social interactions? ‘‘Hi, nice to meet you, by the way, I was raped by my uncle when I was 12.’’ Chances are even if your own mother has had such an experience, you don’t know about it and she would lie if you asked. Of the abuse victims I know, they didn’t even tell their families much less report the incident. And my family only found out by ‘‘accident’’ – I was told I had full confidentiality with a therapist because I was legally an adult, I told her what happened and she later found out she had to report it. As soon as the shit hit the fan, I was promptly blamed, ostracized and disowned. Is it any wonder we keep our mouths shut?

A sample of the women I know:

Raped by her teenage brother at knifepoint when she was 11, fourteen times. She had full family support, he was imprisoned, but in her confusion she ended up molesting her little sister, which was NOT reported. And now, as an adult, her family has succeeded in convincing her to forgive and forget.

Molested at a public pool when she was 8. Not reported.

Molested by fellow friend in 3rd or 4th grade who was herself a victim of abuse of her father. Not reported.

Molested by one of her mother’s one-night stands when she was 7; her mother still does not know 30 years later because daughter wants to ‘‘spare her the guilt.’’ Also molested (repeated forced penetration with a kitchen implement) by older brother between ages of 3-5. Nobody found out until she was 12, when he confessed. He also confessed to molesting a number of neighborhood children. Not reported.

17 year old vocally out lesbian raped at a party while sleeping on the sofa in her own home. Perpetrator was a ‘‘friend of a friend,’’ though since it was dark and she was drunk, she mistakenly held a grudge–in absolute silence–against the wrong guy. Only until she confronted him did a friend set her straight about the identity of the rapist (who had confessed.) She is now 19 with PTSD and OCD, dealing with it for the first time. Not reported.

Molested at 5 years old by grandmother’s boyfriend. Molested at 12 by her father following parents’ divorce. Later was raped at 17 while passed out drunk, by her boyfriend, who got her pregnant. She married the rapist and gave birth to the kid, and AFAIK only two people on the planet know the circumstances of the conception, and only one of them believes her. Not reported.

And then there is me.

I could go on and on and on and on and on, but if you don’t get it by now you probably won’t.

138

Two things women are not likely to tell random men they meet: Whether they have been sexually assaulted and whether they have had an abortion.

You know women who have experienced these things. You may not know you know them, but you do.

139

So true. Matter of fact, these are two things which women are not likely to tell anyone. Right off the top of my head, I can think of three sexual assaults I’ve experienced which I’ve never told anyone about.

140

I can think of two that I’ve never told anyone about.

I’ll tell them now.

When I was a little girl my uncle would wait till I was going up some stairs and then quickly reach up and grab my crotch.

When I was 16 I went on a date and we ended up going for a walk in the woods. We found an abandoned cabin and we started kissing. When I said I didn’t want to do anymore, he ripped my pants off and forced himself on me. I’ve never known what to call it because I did start making out with him and I second guess just how I said “no”. To this day I still don’t know if I didn’t mean it when I said “no”.