Do we need another multi-page discussion about why this particular male theory is wrong?
Okay so, is this rape, or me being a dumb ass?
I met a guy (at a bar… ugh) who is a cop in a neighboring town. I invited him to my apartment after a few times speaking on the phone.
We had a few drinks, and I said I was tired and wanted to go to bed. He said he was too drunk to drive home.
I thought, as a cop, he’d be super vigilant against drinking and driving, so… no big deal. Sleep on the couch.
A few minutes into him sleeping on the couch and me being in bed, I hear a knock at my door. I say “what?” and he comes in and gets in my bed.
At first I was kinda not sure of what was going on, so I let him lay in my bed, and we cuddled a little.
Then he started trying to have sex/be intimate with me. I kept saying, “no… this is a bad idea…” etc…
He kept going.
“no… no… I don’t want to do this…”
kept going.
“No, I don’t want to do this. I don’t know you.”
kept going.
we had sex. He got up and left.
and I was stuck (and still AM stuck) in this weird, is it me or him type situation.
I didn’t realize that we could vote multiple times, so I adjust my responses to include the first four. And if I could vote twice for being sexually assaulted by a stranger, I would vote twice. And I’m not talking groping. I’m talking assault.
I used to get a ton of unwanted attention when I was thin with big breasts. This doesn’t happen so much now that I am fat and have had a breast reduction. I am consciously aware that a good part of my effort to put on weight was to get men to leave me alone.
Women, also. I’ve had a woman in a lesbian bar grab my hand and put it palm up in her crotch and not let go.
I’ve had a number of aggressive lesbians say shit to me that was way beyond appropriate and would never be accepted if a guy said it.
I’ve been sexually harrassed at work. I’ve also been subtley retaliated against at work because I rejected men.
Oh, and nuggz? Based on what you posted, him, absolutely him.
Isn’t that a weird feeling? Not quite knowing if you were raped or not? I sure understand though.
Not with a stranger! And I’m even damn careful about it with my husband - if he is reading or otherwise engaged, I have to think about if what I want him for is important enough to interrupt him.
nuggz, you said no, he kept going. It sounds like rape to me.
Agreed. That was a little similar to one of mine.
My room mate had let a friend of hers come over, and this douchebag was with him. Roommate didn’t notice that douchebag had gone into my bedroom where I was asleep. He got in my bed, and I woke up to a total stranger having sex with me. I began to struggle and protest, he finished before I could get him disengaged. He then went into the other part of the house and started bragging to his friend about it.
My roommate had the nerve to bitch me out about it, as if if were my fault. 
I was too embarassed to do anything about it.
Another time, a guy I thought I could trust (a friend’s husband) got in my bed while I was sleeping and did the same thing. He was a big guy and I couldn’t stop him. Again I was too embarrassed to tell anybody.
Those were two I’ve never told, although obviously three other people knew about the first one and my sister found out about the second one.
Probably not prosecutable rape. But no consent.
That’s the deal. Relatively few women are raped in a manner that’s really prosecutable. Plenty of women wake up to find “their friend” on top of them or with a makeout session where boundaries are not respected and before they know it they are raped - but they don’t call it rape. After all, they did invite him over, have a few drinks, let him get their shirt off, were having a jolly old time before…
Then conversations happen between girlfriends and what comes out is that of ten of my girlfriends in a room, seven of us had sex that we had not consented to. None of us had ever reported it because none of it was something we felt prosecutable or because it happened when we were very young.
Similar to one of mine, also. Cinco de Mayo party at my house. I decided to get drunker than I’ve ever been. Why not? I’m at home with friends. Except for the two guys my roommate invited that I didn’t know.
The next morning I awake to a dick in my mouth. I, too, was too embarrassed to say anything about it. Which, of course, is* bullshit*. Why am I made to feel embarrassed? I am in my own home! And regardless, some stranger put his dick in me when I was passed out! To this day, I have no idea if he actually raped me or not during the night.
But I do.
I don’t have PTSD, in fact, I’m very comfortable around men in general. I’m currently working in construction and have yet to work on a crew with another woman. I flew airplanes for years, which meant I was normally around men, often with no other women in sight. I played in bagpipe bands for years, again, very male dominated. I love men, I love talking with men, it would be tragic if I had no male contact in my life. I’m a tomboy, I like to do boy stuff, not girl stuff, and that means I’m always around men.
Yet - every single day I worry about… let’s not say “rape”, let’s say “assault of any sort”.
The brutal fact is that I am a small woman. I am rather strong for my size, and still in good shape, but most men are taller, heavier, and certainly stronger than I am. In a “fair fight” I’m going to lose (that’s why I don’t fight fair). Going out to my car in the morning I’m scanning the yard and driveway for potential threats. Going to the grocery store, pumping gas, meeting a new guy on the work crew… every time I am scanning for threats and evaluating body language and behavior. This is not an hour-long obsessive glare, it’s a quick scan… but it’s always there.
MOST of the time, the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY OF THE TIME, I decide the man in front of me is OK… because most men really are decent human beings. In fact, I am grateful to some very decent men who either warned me about men I should be wary of, or who intervened on my behalf when things started to get wonky. Absolutely I value all the good men in my life, whether my relatives, my husband, my friends, my co-workers, or just a pleasant gentleman I pass on my way home.
But I am always a little wary. That’s part of being a woman - in the back of your mind you always have the awareness that merely because you’re female you are a target for some people. See, the problem is that one or two men in a hundred that tar the reputation of the rest. I’ve met thousands of men in my lifetime. I’ve met a lot bad men. I’ve had to physically defend myself and fortunately I was able to do so. I am trying to avoid needing to use those skills again.
I emphasize again - I am not a shrinking violet. I get out there in the world and do things. In fact, I had a job at one point that required nearly daily contact with convicted felons. But understand that one a certain level the fear is always there. The fear does not stop me from getting out there and doing things, but that does not mean it is gone, only that I am in control of it rather than it in control of me.
It’s not just rape - I’ve had men grabbed stuff out of my hands during robberies (or at least try to - the guy who snagged my bagpipes had no clue how heavy that case was and dropped it as he started to run away). Thieves don’t want to get hurt. They’ll tend to pick the small, weak looking targets. Well, I’m short and don’t look particularly strong.
Sure, 59 out of 60 guys are no threat… the problem is I know a LOT more than just 60 men! I have, unquestionably, met rapists, muggers, and murderers. Sometimes I was aware of their tendencies, sometimes not. Until I know you’re not that one in 60 yes, I’m going to be wary.
Regrettably, statistics show that women’s evaluation of male threat level are not always accurate. Hence date rape, rape by men known to the women.
I like to assume men are trustworthy, too - but I’m wary until I see some evidence of what they’re really like. I can’t afford to be otherwise.
I’m not criticizing you for looking out for your safety. However, do you feel you have the ability to correctly detect threats? I’m not offended if women are looking out for their safety and it makes them wary around me or anyone else. But that doesn’t mean I feel their detection skills are all that great either.
This is a hard subject to discuss for fear things will be taken wrong, but what bothers me is when some women seem to feel they have a third eye that lets them detect sexual threats after a few minutes when they really don’t. All they are detecting is social skills. Truly dangerous people know how to get around those detectors. Ted Bundy got dozens of women to get into his car as an example. Or you can have a Jekyll/Hyde situation where a personality can change.
A lot of these stories going around are stories of acquaintances and friends committing sexual assaults. If people ‘knew’ who was a threat and who wasn’t, these things wouldn’t happen.
So my point is you really can’t tell. If people could tell with a high degree of accuracy who is a threat and who isn’t, you wouldn’t have so many date and acquaintance rape stories. You really can’t know. I’m not saying its wrong to be wary, I’m saying I don’t really believe people know who is a threat and who isn’t.
Yes, I’m afraid that is the case.
I doubt there has ever been a human society that wasn’t like that - at that, women are far more free in the modern “west” than in just about any other human society in history. In other words, this is about as good as it gets. I sure would like it to be better, but that’s not current reality.
You won’t find out from him - you might find out from the women you know.
DO keep your distance - slightly more than arm’s reach (your arm, not hers) when initiating contact. Let her come to you from that distance. It gives her some control over the situation, and that is reassuring to her. If you’re particularly tall, large, imposing, etc. then it’s arm’s length and a pace or two farther away
DO pay attention to her reaction - if she retreats, looks away, or in any way indicates lack of interest then she’s not interested.
If she displays any sign of fear or unease DO back off, apologize for disturbing her, and do not pester her. Sometimes, that might get you more conversation - I’ve had that reaction when startled, then went one to have a very pleasant conversation with a man who made it plain he had no intention to cause disturbing impressions and was willing to let me decide the next move, if any. Why? Because he yielded control to me and let me determine if more social interaction would take place. Of course, that won’t always happen, but it’s a way to get past inadvertent faux pas that might work.
If you see another man refusing to respect a woman’s boundaries then DO speak up and say something. Like “Hey, buddy, I don’t think she appreciated that comment” or “that was rude” or “leave her alone if she doesn’t want to be bothered” or whatever would be appropriate to the situation. I’m not saying you have to be a knight in shining armor, but don’t stand by if someone is being bullied or intimidated.
Permitted touching with a woman you just met: handshakes (though some cultures forbid any physical contact between women and men not related to them), actions that would prevent imminent injury, and that’s about it. If you’re in a crowded situation such as an elevator or subway train keep your hands away from tits, ass, and crotch and if inadvertent touch occurs due to crowded situations excuse yourself/apologize immediately and if at all possible pull away from her slightly to make it clear it was unintentional.
DO allow her control of the situation - let her ask questions, allow her adequate time for response to what you say, let her set the distance between you. You can offer to help with bags/packages/whatever, but if she says no then respect that.
Maybe women aren’t that accurate in detecting threats. The problem is, it’s better to have 100 false alarms than to fail to pick up on that one real threat, because that one real threat can get us raped and possibly killed.
I wish that we DID have a more accurate way to tell who the good guys are, and who the bad ones are. I really, really do. I wish that we could tell, just by looking at a person, or some other way, that he has no intention of assaulting or raping us. It would make things easier for about 99.99% of the population, it would only be detrimental to the tiny minority of people with bad intentions. But until we have something more foolproof than our gut instincts, then that’s what we’re going to use. Because sometimes, our gut instincts ARE accurate.
I’m sure it sucks for a guy who is a good guy, but who triggers those instincts. But it sucks worse to be assaulted or raped.
These both more or less sum up my view on the subject. I’m sorry if you’re offended that I’m (now) looking out for myself - but I’ve trusted people before and it’s worked out badly. So now, I have to start by assuming you might not be the great guy you seem to be. I might still get it wrong - I might decide you’re ok, when you’re really not - but I’ll be less likely to be raped, if only because I won’t be on my own with you until I know you well.
Ah, there’s a feeling I know well. It’s him - though it took me a very, very long time to realise that, and a lot of self-destructive shit while I was working it out. But just because alcohol had been involved earlier in the night doesn’t make it ok - you’d put him on the couch ffs, he had no reasonable expectation that you were interested in anything else, your explicit statements only reinforced that. Guy was an arsehole, it’s all him. It almost always is him, though guilt can fuck you up surprisingly well, even if it’s misplaced. (That might just be me.)
In the U.S. 99% of all rapes are committed by men, 91% of all rapes are committed against women, 25% of all women will, at some point, be on the receiving end of some nature of sexual assault and 73% of all women will be sexually harrassed. The vast majority of the 9% of rapes that are committed against men are committed in prison.
The U.S. rate of rape (as a discrete subset of sexual assaults) is 4 times higher than that in Europe, and this is only speaking, of course, of reported rapes and though figures are sketchy, that’s probably only about half. The numbers are considerably worse in many parts of the world. Women in the U.S. military are actually more than five times more likely to be raped than their civilian counterparts.
No, the number of women who are raped, assaulted, on the receiving end of attempted assault and sexual harassment is evidence that we live in a rape culture. Demeaning portrayals of women in our cultural conversation, in mass media and especially in advertising (like the “line drawing” linked) are symptoms of that broken culture. Putting scare quotes around the term as you misuse it doesn’t do very much for your argument.
Bingo. See also: “Why would he have to rape someone, he’s the world heavyweight champ/has a Super Bowl ring/just won the NBA playoffs/has the #1 song on the charts, women are throwing themselves at him!”
Physical contact no, probably not for most of the women you know. Inappropriate and aggressive harassment? Probably yes, for most of the women you know. Harassment that has at times made them frightened, angry and has had a noticeable impact on their lives? Likely yes, for many of the women you know.
And that is what it means in feminist dialectic when the term rape culture is used. It means living in a society where the majority of women will be harassed – most more than once. Living in a society where an extraordinarily high number of women will be assaulted. Living in a society where a large number of rape victims won’t report their rapes to authorities, for a variety of reasons. Living in a society where women who do report their rapes, assaults and harassment become victims a second time of misogynist smears against them and their integrity and honesty, their pasts, even their mental stability. (That happened right here on this message board in a thread where a female Doper posted about being groped.)
This is the other part of rape culture. Women’s stories are not respected. We are not trusted. Women are painted as liars and exaggerators and complainers because it’s more convenient, less shattering to the status quo, less disruptive to business as usual to disbelieve that our reports are true and as broad-reaching as they are than to believe that there are as many men who disrespect women, disrespect our boundaries, disrespect our autonomy and disrespect our bodies as there are. And it’s a cyclical thing. A society in which we are not trusted is a society in which we are not respected and without that respect, some men feel free to mistreat.
You said no. He disrespected that. There is nothing “dumb ass” about saying no to something that you did not want to happen. What’s dumb ass is that he didn’t listen. You know in your heart of hearts what happened to you, nuggz, and I hope you can find some way of working that out for yourself.
Exactly. And don’t think that men who rape don’t know it. The stranger leaping out and grabbing a woman he doesn’t know and brutalizing her and threatening her with a weapon accounts for a very small percentage of rapes. Most rapes are committed by a man known to the victim and most rapes are committed after the victim has become intoxicated, often because the rapist has pushed alcohol and/or drugs on her. It is a method that the majority of rapists who admit to being rapists opt for because it works. It allows them to commit their crime and avoid prosecution after the fact because a woman who is too drunk/drugged to consent is also not viewed by prosecutors as a reliable witness to her own assault, even when there’s evidence of a struggle, even when there’s DNA.
And successful sexual assault prosecutions not only need reliable witnesses, they need sympathetic witnesses, and sadly, women who got drunk and went somewhere with a man (or let a man take them somewhere or got drunk at home alone with a man, even one they knew well and thought they could trust) aren’t sympathetic. They’re painted as slutty, trampy drunken “party girls” who probably said yes and just don’t remember or worse, who got what was coming to them and really, what did they expect anyway?
This is another part of rape culture, by the way, the pervasive notion that some women deserve to be raped (promiscuous women, sex workers), and that women become culpable for the behavior of rapists by virtue of where they go (out to bars), what they wear (short skirts, tight pants) or who they associate with (one man in the wrong place, groups of men especially where there’s alcohol).
Why does it matter to you if some women are hyperdefensive about rape? Do you feel some entitlement to be trusted by women as a default until you prove yourself to be untrustworthy? Do you feel that all men are entitled to that?
Also a counter question: what if the first judgment isn’t about trying to detect a threat in the moment, but about determining if someone is worth the time and effort to get to know and take the risk with?
See, I never said anything about treating men like scum – that’s YOUR extrapolation based on no evidence. I think what hurts me the most about the male posters in this thread (and keeping in mind that some are very sympathetic and horrified at the treatment we female Dopers have received) is that, even here, on the SDMB, where everyone likes to pat themselves on the back for being so enlightened and intelligent, we still get the SAME attitudes. What happened to you is no big deal. It’s just boys being boys. It’s your fault, anyway. There’s such a self-entitled, butthurt note to your statements that it makes me ill.
I’m under no obligation to you, or any other man, or any other woman, for that matter. You don’t deserve my trust just for existing. The worst that can happen to *you *is that you feel butthurt – the worst that can happen to *me *is that I’m violently raped, murdered, forcibly impregnated, or left with an incurable STD.
The attitude that “oh, it’s just SEXUAL TENSION” really pisses me off, as well. I very much doubt the guy who attacked me with a crowbar in New Orleans wanted to ‘make babies’ with me. I have my doubts that he just wanted to take me on a date, share a smoothie with me, and hold my hand. I think that he wanted to beat my fucking skull in with his crowbar and then rob, rape, and possibly kill me.
I wish someone had told me this when I was a kid, rather than teaching me about what polite standards of behaviour for women are.
Gentlemen, we’re not being rude by not wanting to talk to you, a complete stranger. Some of us may find you threatening, no matter your intentions or how you see yourself, because of past experiences we’ve had. Your right to have a pleasant conversation does not outweigh my right to be left alone in public, and I have no duty to entertain you because you’re bored and we happen to be in the same place momentarily - I’m not your nanny, and you’re not a child anymore. If being ignored or even gasp actively snubbed by some woman you don’t know is the worst thing that happens to you in the day, think yourself lucky - and I hope this thread has given you at least a little bit of an insight into what might have been going through her mind at the time. She probably had a worse time in that conversation than you did.
It doesn’t matter to me if a woman is hyperdefensive about rape. Be as hyperdefensive as you want. I am not going to stop you. If it helps you, have at it.
When or where did I say I feel entitlement to be trusted by women on the spot, or that women were wrong for worrying about their safety? Where did I say I even cared if strange women trusted me or not? I’ve had strange women trust me and I’ve had strange women not trust me. I’ve had women I was close to trust me, and women I was close to not trust me. I’m not bitter about any of it.
Great. Not criticizing that either.
My criticism is this: I don’t agree with women who think they are great judges of character based on things like observing the social skills of strangers. Thats it. I’m not asking them to change or stop. I’m just saying I don’t agree with them. I’m not saying a woman should trust every person they see. I’m saying I don’t agree with the ones who think they have some psychic insight into the human soul based on their observation of superficial social skills. If the women who thought they had this ability actually did, there wouldn’t be so much date rape or assault among friends.
I’m not asking anyone to stop or change, just saying I don’t agree with it. Generally you can’t tell who is a threat.
Nor do I agree with the mentality that if you don’t agree with it, it is because you are being defensive or telling women to stop. I’m not doing either. If women want to be afraid of me or someone else, that is honestly not that important to me.
Be as defensive or wary as you want to be or feel you need to be. However I’m sure some of the 30+ women who got in Ted Bundy’s car got ‘rape vibes’ from the guy with aspergers syndrome instead of from Ted Bundy. I’m not asking anyone to stop or change, just saying I don’t agree with their methods. If women really had the ability to detect threats (which is probably impossible to be perfect at), then you wouldn’t have a situation where all the women here have been assaulted or almost all their friends have been assaulted.
There’s an underlying vibe here that I find very disquieting: that it’s not okay for someone who’s attracted to someone to verbally express that attraction - or worse, that people who do are classed as dangerous. I’m not talking about willy-waving or anything like that, just the attracted person making a comment. That’s wrong.