It depends on context, though, Quartz. At the pub, or at a party, or somewhere similar, of course it’s fine to make a comment. On the train as I’m going home from work? While I’m out at the supermarket? When I’m walking the dog in the evening? When I’m lying on the beach on my own? Actually, I do think that’s not okay. It does make me feel very uncomfortable and nervous, particularly on the train or somewhere else where I can’t easily get away. And it’s not usually just one comment, then men leave you alone - it’s repeated comments, increasingly aggressive in tone, demanding responses. And if you (generic you) are the exception, well, we don’t know that when you start commenting.
And that’s why a lot of women who’ve been assaulted never really feel totally at ease in a lot of the situations being mentioned, especially if the assault came from an acquaintance.
Well, in many workplaces it isn’t OK to do, but barring anything like that, it can depend on how it’s done. And no, I don’t mean “be a hot guy.” Give her some space, be polite, try to have at least established eye contact with her that seems to have been positive. If she’s got her face buried in her book/iPod/laptop it’s probably for a reason that matters to her. Don’t do it when you’re the only people around. And realize that no matter how much of a decent human being you are, some women might not feel comfortable about it anyway. Blame the “hey baby…” douches or the previous relationship she still isn’t over or the construction workers who catcall about her tits, that kind of stuff.
Going off nicole’s comment - I know that magazine articles and the like say to take any opportunity to try to make a connection, but these are the same magazines that offer hot sex tips, great and totally healthy and foolproof diet plans, and the best chocolate cake recipe ever. A lot of these things aren’t worth the paper they’re printed on.
I cannot count how many times as a young teenager I’ve had guys expose themeselves to me and my friends. It happened 4-5 times a year. Walking to softball practice, hanging at the beach, at stoplights, in front of my house. I’ve had strangers follow me home from a stoplight late at night. One perv parked ran down the block to my house and hopped the fence into my backyard. It was a white pickup with dually wheels and cab light on top he was stocky short and blonde. My Mom tried to chase him down but he got away in his truck, the cops were called but they could do nothing. I’ll never forget that and I never felt safe at home again, paranoid really. Around the same time I arrowly escaped being pulled into a wooded lot by guy whose face i later saw on the evening news in connection with a disapearance of another girl.
I attributed it to living in S Fla, a transient area where the weirdos go to escape the northern winters.
Around me by my mid-20s, yep. Not that its wrong, or inappropriate, just that as a strangers you would have always gotten the cold shoulder. I wouldn’t have classed you as dangerous or intrusive - unless you persisted. I didn’t date men I met browsing the bookshelves at Barnes and Noble or in an elevator. I dated people I’d be introduced to, who I shared mutual friends with, or who I knew from organizations.
Or maybe because many of them ARE lying? Since when did women become moral paragons? Why should men trust women any more than you want women to trust men? If it’s OK to treat all men as potential rapists, it’s at least as reasonable to treat women all as potential liars.
See how unpleasant it is to be treated like scum when you aren’t?
Why does it matter to you if some men think that women are all liars? Or sluts, or stupid, or whichever slander gets under your skin the most. People care what other people they need to deal with think of them.
You are trying to claim that men shouldn’t care how they are regarded by women, while complaining about how women are regarded by men. Hypocrisy.
Or I can be tossed in prison or beaten up due to a false accusation of rape, sprayed with mace, or just shot by a woman who is thinking in these “men are all potential rapists” terms. Or even in classic “men are all rapists, and that’s all that they are” terms. If I treated all women the way women are being told to treat men in this thread, I’d be regarded as a raving paranoid and sexist. Somehow it’s never sexist when a woman does it.
I don’t think its trust on that level. I trust men. I trust them to work with. I interact with them continually. I have men friends. I buy things from men, do business with men, arrange playdates for my daughter with the fathers of her friends. I married a wonderful one.
There is one specific area in which my trust has to be earned through hoops that a casual stranger would not wish to go through.
The impact of this lack of trust is that if you wanted to date me (impossible, since I’ve been long married) is that I would not accept an invitation or have a conversation with you as a random stranger. If we met under different terms (were introduced) you’d need to put up with several dates of me being weird while you earned my trust and I learned enough about you to determine you were trustworthy. Not that you’d have economic impact, or have to fear I was going to turn you into the cops for some imagined slight.
Yeah, I didn’t date a lot. And you know what, that was fine.
And its it sexist of me - you bet. I treat strange men differently than I do strange women. That’s the definition of sexist. But, honestly, not that different - I’m not terribly likely to respond positively to some woman I don’t know in a grocery store suggesting we go out for coffee either. Or meeting on an airplane and suggesting since we will both be in Boston for a business trip, we should do dinner.
I must admit that I had more problems with unneeded comments and attempts to get in my pants in college from those who were “further up the social ladder” via status as a football player or member of one of the more “high status” fraternities than I ever did with the “regular guys”-- for some reason, the increased status sometimes gives a guy his own personal “douchebag license” where he thinks it’s okay to say inappropriate things or attempt to command other individuals to follow his will. Mind you, I never got to a point where any of them could have assaulted me, but I did get asked on more than one occasion how much it’d cost to get me in bed, along with the “starving man looking at a steak” stare. It definitely helped me hone my disapproving stare as an effective reaction to unwanted comments/behavior.
As others have said, it’s all about context, and that seems to be a point that many men (and women) don’t get. I don’t mind being flirted with in the right context, but really, I don’t want to be bothered with someone telling me they’re attracted to me when I’m at work, and if I give a polite refusal or change the subject, that’s their cue to not bring it up again. Sure, it’s flattering to be told that you’re pretty, but a lot of our reaction as women is built upon the context in which the person is being told so, and also how the person approaches them.
As for talking to strangers, I’m a friendly person, but there is a distinct wall I put up between myself and any stranger, regardless of gender. While I’m friendly enough, I will still make a point of making sure that it’s noted that I have boundaries when certain topics come up-- if you’re a stranger, I’m not likely to talk about my sex life, religious beliefs or politics with you, and will generally talk away from the subject at first. If that’s not effective, I will become more blunt about not being interested in discussing it; if I come across as a bitch, so be it-- I’m not known for my tactfulness or subtlety by anyone who’s close to me. It’s less an issue of trust and more an issue of maintaining a sense of privacy in my case; I don’t trust anyone implicitly until I get to know them better, and I don’t see a valid argument being made that I should. This doesn’t, however, mean that I’m not going to at least make a minimal effort at politeness, even when I’m being approached in a rude manner.
You know, if I’m riding a train or bus or sitting in a park it’s a public place. If you say hello or whatever I’m not gong to get offended. I’m not on a hair trigger. If I really don’t want to be disturbed I’ll go somewhere that’s not public.
Here’s the thing - if you say hello and I answer back, smile, and make a comment that is an invitation to engage in conversation.
If you say hello and I answer back, smile, then go back to whatever I was doing that means I’d rather not engage in conversation.
If we’re having a conversation and I say “I have to go”, get up, and start walking then the conversation is over. You are not to follow me, inquire about my business, or in any way attempt to continue to interaction.
I’m actually pretty friendly and willing to talk to strangers in public. There is nothing wrong with saying hello. The problem comes in when some persistent jackass INSISTS on continuing contact past the point I do not want to. I’ve had men pursuing me down El platforms, I’ve had men attempt to follow me home. I was once was walking home from the grocery store and after repeated refusals of his offer to carry the stuff for me he attempted to take the bags from my hands over my protests. OK, THAT is creepy behavior - one strategy for rapists to get to their victim is to offer such help as a means to get inside the lady’s home, where he can then slam the door and rape/rob/whatever. (A week later the cops caught a local rapist who was using exactly that strategy - I have no way to know if that “helpful” stranger was the man himself, but I have to wonder).
Some more do’s and don’t’s:
I understand men like to look at boobies. That’s normal and I don’t mind a discreet glance. However, when you are speaking to me look at the face, not the tits. It’s amazing how many men screw this up. There’s been some talk of construction workers wolf-whistling at women, making comments, etc. Well, I work with construction workers (ten and a half hours yesterday, in fact) and yes, they notice I have tits, I’ve seen them enjoying the view, if I take off an overshirt on a hot day I’ll get the occasional comment but I don’t mind it because the guys on the crew look me in the face when speaking to me, and the kidding stops when we’re actually working. With new guys I’ll hold back on my comments for a bit and won’t flirt until I am certain they’re OK with that and won’t take it the wrong way. I’m well aware there are men who aren’t comfortable with that. They are, after all, human beings with feelings.
**Don’t be obvious when checking my left hand for rings. **I am not obligated to display my marital status for your benefit. As it happens, my current profession is not very compatible with wearing any form of jewelry on the hands or wrists so I don’t, for safety reasons. Even before that, I didn’t wear a wedding ring. Lack of a ring does not mean it’s open season on the woman in front of you. It is not deceptive. A woman without a ring may not be interested in dating anyone at the time. She might be lesbian. She might be married. She might be a married lesbian. She might have a boyfriend. It’s not a reliable indicator.
If you want to know if I’m available ask me. I don’t bite. I will give you a direct and honest answer. A remarkable number of women will give you an honest answer to this question. The problem, of course, is that men do not always like our answer, or try to get us to change it. A smart-ass comment like “Well, just how married are you?” puts you on Creep List for me. If I say bluntly “I am not available” take my word for it and do not attempt to change my mind. I understand you’re looking for a girlfriend, I wish you luck with that, but I’m trying to save you time and energy by not wasting your efforts on me. I really do want you do pursue an available woman and for the two of you to be happy together.
Do some women say “Not available” to strangers when, in fact, they ARE available? Yep, they sure do. What they mean, of course, is that they are not available to Mr. Stranger. So, in that sense, no, they’re not available. Think of it as restricted availability.
It’s funny, though - there have always been men in my life who are, in some ways, more afraid of my being raped than I am. My husband, for one, seems to worry about it more than I do sometimes but then he’s got a wife who goes off and does things in male-dominated situations so perhaps that’s the reason. The general contractor I work for in construction has no problem hiring women to work for him, and when he does he is very conscientious about our safety and security (he worries about the men, too - we don’t always work in the safest places). At a couple of the airports I used to frequent I had a couple male friends who llikewise kept an eye out on me (I also have no doubt that if I had been single about five of them would have pursued me, asked me out on dates, etc.)
OK, I understand the decent men feel butthurt because quite a few women view them with suspicion. You’re right, it’s not fair that some women view all men as potential rapists. It’s not fair that some men regard women as sex toys to be used and discarded instead of living human beings. I think we can all agree life isn’t fair. I am well aware that there are many decent, upstanding, moral men who absolutely would not rape me. There are men who will step in and defend a woman in a bad situation. It’s one of the things I love about men, that they can be all protective and knight-in-shining-armor. The problem is, as someone noted, that the factory-installed danger-detector is not reliable. I am well aware that there are men like Ted Bundy out there that are smooth enough operators that they can get past a woman’s defenses and I can’t rely on my radar to detect them. I am well aware that I am MOST likely to be raped by someone I know and thought I could trust. That puts me in a difficult position, now doesn’t it?
Despite the risk and danger, though, I still talk to men, still meet me, still want men in my life. It’s because of all the decent men I’ve known that I do this. They’ve made such a positive impression on me that I keep taking that risk because I view it as an acceptable risk to get the benefit of knowing good men.
The flipside to all this are the women who use men, who lure them into situations and rob them, who take advantage of them and inflict horrible emotional pain. Often they inflict horrible financial pain as well. Sometimes legal pain as well. (It’s not an exact comparison, but it’s the closest parallel I can think of at the moment) Men can’t detect those women reliably, either, and I can understand where a man burned by one of those harpies will then regard all other women he meets with suspicion. I don’t take it personally. I get pissed at the women who poison the well that way, not at the man who is hurting. Perhaps those of you pissed at this situation should get angry at the men who, although a minority, poison the well for all men by hurting women.
To be fair, I tend to be a little on the ‘‘overly trusting’’ side. I have gotten myself into some very uncomfortable situations because of it – like the time I innocently invited a neighbor I had met once before into my home while I was alone. He was over six feet tall and ripped, and he started making comments about my body and appearance. Not the smartest decision I ever made.
But when I realized how much potential danger I had put myself in, I did learn from it. I don’t invite anyone into my home when I’m alone any more.
Every time the issue of rape and sexual assault comes up in other threads, someone inevitably comes in and talks about how the whole thing ‘‘could have been prevented.’’ What’s the matter, why are you getting so defensive, ladies, all I’m saying is, there are precautions that can be taken!
Now there are women discussing ways they take such precautions and there are people saying that taking such precautions is sexist and wrong.
So which is it, Der Trihs? Should we trust men or not trust them? Should we feel safe dressing up and drinking at parties or not? Should we walk down the street alone or not? If you were ruler of the world, tell me, please, how you would you mandate women guard against rape without being offensive and ‘‘treating men like scum?’’
I think some women tend to be overly paranoid when it comes to this sort of thing, but I think you’re overreacting too. I haven’t seen any claim that all men are rapists but a lot of you seem to be jumping to the conclusion that this is what’s being stated. You seem to think being right about this is more important than honoring womens’ experiences of sexual assault, sexual abuse, and rape.
Think about this. The very least generalization we can make about this thread is that most of the women participating have been raped, sexually assaulted, or sexually abused. By my own statistic, roughly 80% of women who have had these experiences will go on to develop PTSD, at least at some point.
So conservatively, if 60% of the women in this thread have had or do have PTSD, how likely do you think they are to be a little on the cautious side? If you’re sitting in your car at a stoplight, and your car backfires just as a war veteran passes by, and he looks at you in terror, are you going to take it fucking personally or are you going to use some common sense and recognize that some innocuous thing about that moment combined with some element from his past led to an irrational fear of you? Are you going to have sympathy or scorn?*
*Pretend he was drafted. Pretend he was forced into the army at gunpoint. Whatever it takes for you to feel sympathy for war veterans, pretend that.
Before this thread I would have probably argued with you on this point. I have felt for a while that a significant minority of vocal Doper men had a somewhat… antiquated perspective on this issue, but I never imagined it ran this deep. It really scares me, to be honest. Doper men are the best and the brightest, and (I would like to think) the most socially enlightened, and this is what we get. Denial, dismissal, criticism and blame. A thread designed for women to share their experiences of trauma has turned into putting them on trial for their feelings.
(I recognize there are many good guys here, and I appreciate you speaking up, because it’s obvious women aren’t given any credibility on this subject, and what we really need are more men willing to be vocal about this problem. You guys may not realize it, but those of you who honor our experiences are the true white knights. It’s a very sexy character trait.)
Most men don’t get this. Men I like and respect and have trusted with the information take a long time to get this. And they start with the whole “well, that isn’t fair (to me).” Because it isn’t. But eventually, they recognize it isn’t fair to ANYONE. That the jerkish actions of a few create this wall that both sides are stepping gingerly around.
And, I think that most men look at this and realize that at some time some woman has probably been threatened by them - not that they intended it. But they came on too strong. They persisted after a no (that may have turned into a yes because SOMETIMES women do protest and change their minds all on their own, no coercion required). And when they start understanding the prevalence…that’s a scary thing - for men and for women.
I strongly agree with this. I have seen a lot of women say a guy is ‘‘creepy’’ (which generally has the connotation of ''perv/potential sex offender) just because he seems to lack social skills. I am kind of weird in this regard – I tend to like guys with poor social skills, they seem less pushy and intrusive to me, and I’ve always been a bit of a wallflower myself. However, I have made that mistake too…
When I was a freshman in college I had a male acquaintance who would always stop by my room, and he gave me the ‘‘creepy’’ vibe big-time. He was always dropping by my door and writing weird, incoherent messages on my dry-erase board. He had NO concept of personal space, and would come into my room uninvited and sit next to me on my dorm bed. He seemed well-meaning, but I spent half the time with him wishing he would get the hell out of my face.
I made a comment about the weird vibe I got from him to a friend of his/acquaintance of mine, and she promptly told him. He felt AWFUL. He wrote a big long e-mail about how much respect he had for me and how he had NO IDEA I felt he was intruding on my personal space and asked that in the future I would be very explicit about what I was comfortable with, or not.
Four years later, I married him.
There IS a pervasive belief among women, perpetuated by other women, the media, society and internet culture, that sex offenders look and act weird. But the reality is a lot of them don’t. You can’t tell. Many child molesters and rapists seem like normal, sometimes very charming and attractive people. Some of them are stand-up citizens. There’s no way of knowing.
And I detest this stereotype, because it is that very stereotype – that you can ‘‘tell’’ a pedophile or rapist – that leads to families and friends in denial when someone is victimized.
But there is a big difference between ‘‘creepy/social diaster vibe’’ and ‘‘consistently disrespects your boundaries.’’ Some very socially adept, charming men with many friends show consistent disregard for the personal boundaries of others. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to think, ‘‘Hey, this guy keeps touching me when I explicitly have told him not to, so I’d probably better not ever be alone with him.’’ I think women here are talking about that kind of guy.
I loathe the term “butthurt” and think it’s particularly inappropriate in a thread about sexual degradation. I understand you’re angry, but that word is simply uncalled for and disgusting in any context. Perhaps I misunderstand it, but I read it as implying that the hurtee should have just lied back and took it, or that they secretly wanted it but are now bitching about it, or that the hurtee should just submit and not complain, or realize their place. Yuck.
(bolding mine)
This is not a sensible statement. Just because someone’s spidey sense is not 100% foolproof doesn’t mean it’s unreliable in an absolute sense. Sometimes the bad guys slip through the cracks due to all kinds of reasons. That doesn’t mean it’s folly to be on guard for certain signs of creepiness and act accordingly. That’s just common sense.
Guys that appear clueless or insensitive to body language and social boundaries do not automatically constitute a threat. But these are cues for wariness. A guy who will persist in touching a woman or asking her out or leering at her hungrily only until she gets so fed up that she has to scream obsensities at him before he backs off may not necessarly be a rapist. But a woman is not going to waste time on him trying to figure that out. Rightfully or wrongfully, she will judge him to be a suspect case. The question is, can you really blame her?
In a natural selection point of view, I think of it this way: men who are good communicators (both as receivers and senders) have an advantage over those that are not, and rightfully so. It’s against a woman’s best interest to be around a man who can’t tell when she’s receptive or when she’s the complete opposite. Because at a minimum he’s going to be nuisiance. At worse, he will be a physical threat.
WORD… I think its time to teach young men something called “context”. I’ve observed it so many times before. Woman walking home on a campus from the library… so why does she seem soo aloof so nervous when a nice guy in the back seat of a CAR FULL OF GUYS is trying to rap to her? Its context… you see a pretty lady she see’s six guys she doesn’t know making comments about her. to her…
Walking up on a lady in a parking garage… why did she jump… what the hell is the matter with her. Guys need to get over it… If some five foot 1 95lbs frequently white lady doesn’t want to get on an elevator with my 6’4 245lbs black shaved head self… I DON’T TAKE IT PERSONALLY!! She needs to make good decisions to keep herself in a wise and safe decision. Personally I’m teaching my 11 year old princess to think the hell with some guys feelings. and to KEEP HERSELF SAFE. So boohoo you are hurt because you feel she’s LUMPED you in with the bad men. Get over it… the FIRST responsibility everyone has is to make the kind of decisions to keep themselves in an advantageous situation!
TO the men as well… don’t take that shortcut through the dark lot late at night… common sense and an appreciation of what that other person may have gone through.
I distinguish between socially awkward and creepiness.
I’m close friends with a guy who is socially awkward when comes to women that he is attracted to (and that includes me). He has never given me creepy vibes, and I’m not just saying that because I like him. Because even before I started liking him, he never pinged my creep-o-meter. He doesn’t do things that creeps do.
Like gaze inappropriately. Stand too close. Asking someone to go out with him repeatedly in spite of always being turned down. Finding a reason to touch all the time. Complimenting someone in explicit ways and continuing to do so even though the object of flattery is visibly embarrassed or even stone faced. The serious tone that underlies their attempt at “flirting”, which suggests that turning them down will not be a simple, no-stress affair.
These things are creepoid behaviors. One of these things isolation may not be a big deal, but multiple ones together…yeah, it’s creepy. It’s not the same as simply being clumsy with the opposite sex. Like, not knowing what to say or fidgeting nervously or not being able to maintain eye contact. Guys like this are often too awkward to initiate any physical contact, let unwanted contact. They tend not to leer either, in my experience.
I guess if you read what Der Tris has to say you might get discouraged about the level of understanding on the Dope, but on the other hand he’s a definite minority in here. And if only one guy can come to an understanding of how common the problem is and how many of the women he knows have been affected then this thread has achieved its purpose, I think. And since there have been so many clearly articulated explanations and well-put arguments, a careful reader can learn a lot from this thread. My own personal experience is that every single woman I know has had at least one unwanted sexual advance/contact/experience. Every one. I hope you guys who believe we are lying about this will read more carefully and realize that this belief is part of the problem.
And thanks to those of you who have been willing to put your experiences out there. I hope we have opened some men’s eyes a little bit.
I guess the one main think I would like men to understand is the notion of appropriateness. Those of you who ask what can you do to approach a woman, etc.: please know that is the key. Someone upthread said something like: if you realize you are in a place where the woman may not feel safe with you then don’t approach her. YEAH. And if she brushes off your approach, please quit. Not being heard is a great way for a woman to feel unsafe.
Anyway, to the OP: thanks for this.
ETA: I see Chicagojeffmade some of my points for me; note to self: type faster!
The numbers are high–but we also have lots of other things in our culture. Why not call it a murder culture or a violent culture or a dog giving birth culture? Calling it a rape culture–I don’t know, it just seems sort of strange. So does all the emphasis on things like pictures and so forth. Why is a bad line drawing of a woman with her ass in the air a symptom of rape culture? Why do we assume a woman who’s ready for sex is a rape victim? Isn’t that kind of disempowering? Or why do we assume that this woman is a gang rape victim? I see rape as an important issue–I just don’t see fashion shoots and line drawings as having anything to do with it myself personally.
You’ve got a healthy attitude about it. My hubby gets that too, he’s a 6’-5" 250# dude, and looks like a big rough redneck. He often has women shrink back from him as he approaches - it’s kind of amazing to watch. He doesn’t take offense though, and usually once he opens his mouth and starts talking, folks realize he’s harmless.
I didn’t have a chance to elaborate before, but I wanted to share a little of my story, too. I was raised extremely protected. I wasn’t ever allowed to date, or hell, even receiving phone calls from a boy, about homework, was cause for a huge blow up.
When I was fourteen and a freshman in college I was at my locker when some boy ran past me and stuck his hand between my legs and grabbed my crotch and ran. It was absolutely humiliating. I went to my next class and tried not to cry through the whole class. It was English, too, my favorite class, and I wanted to tell the teacher but I was humiliated. Why should i have been humiliated? I felt like I had done something to bring it on. Why did I? Much later I found out that that was sort of an initiation rite that (a group of guys? the guys? I never did find out who was doing it) did to every new girl.
When I was seventeen someone I should have been able to trust very closely did three inappropriate things with me. He kissed me on the mouth, open mouth, with teeth and a very wet mouth. He hugged me for way too long and too tight, not letting me go when I tried feebly to squirm. And he laid his hand on my ass a couple of times. This was a relationship where none of this was acceptable - i.e., he was a family member.
Those are the worse ones and the ones I remember the most. other than that there have been myriads of times. I remember Fred/Fahdi, the guy in college that stood entirely too close and would come up and put his hands on my shoulders and begin to massage them, and touch my back and breathe down my neck and try to look down my shirt. I remember many many of my friend’s fathers getting drunk at parties and acting lewdly towards their daughter’s friends. I distrusted drink for a lot of years and only have just begun to relax in the last five years about it. In India I’ve had men follow me down the street and around the corner.
I remember being 11 years old and being home alone (I was a latch-key kid). Someone called for my dad, and as I had been told, I told them he was in the shower. I remember the way his voice switched to oily and lewd as he said, “Well, why don’t you join him in there, then?” He knew that was my DAD.
I remember the stories my girlfriends have told. My beloved best friend from high school was raped by her dad. Another, molested by her neighbor, the babysitter. Her mom did not believe her and she had to continue being babysat by this person.
This is me. Sheltered upbringing until I was twenty and I still could not stay away from it. I never got drunk in bars, never spent time alone with men that I didn’t trust, and yet still could not stay entirely safe from them. And I’m not saying that’s the “right” way to be or anything like that, it’s just that taking precautions doesn’t really do shit.
I will continue to be cautious around men because that’s what I have learned. I’m sorry. I really am, that the world has to be this way but the fact is, it is this way.
I really think you’ve got a blind spot here, and it seems like a really common one that kind of bugs me. I don’t understand it. The dynamic you are describing, while for all I know it might be the one you really encounter every day, is not the one being discussed here.
What many people in this thread are saying, including myself (so you can address your rhetorical questions to me if you like, and then it won’t be a woman doing it) is that it is reasonable for a woman to be defensive and alert when approached by a stranger. What you are choosing to do is interpret that as a way of thinking about men or a way of treating men, specifically you, which allows you to leap to the situation where you, friendly non-rapist, smile and say hello at the stationery store, and a woman silently backs away into the crowded street, cellphone dialed and at the ready, jaw rigid with contempt, eyes shining with fear. In this imaginary scenario, you are the victim of a catastrophic injustice.
In practice, of course, the woman says hello back to you, and depending on a million other factors, might go on with her shopping, might smile and compliment you on your choice of rooster-themed correspondence, might act a little nervous, whatever. You are the victim of nothing. The consequence of the mentality you’re so offended about is as follows: she’s a little more tense than she otherwise might be, you have received nothing more or less than you deserved in response to your hello.
Maybe instead of that scenario you’d prefer to talk about Quartz’s: standing in line at the deli counter, you genially tell the lady ahead of you that there’s one particular cut of ham that you’d really like to sink your teeth into. Because she’s already pegg… er, because she’s already picked you out as a “potential rapist,” she’s probably going to think that’s a gross comment, be insulted, and depending on her particular mood and temperament she might do any of a number of things in response. If she isn’t already “thinking of you as a potential rapist,” she’s probably going to… think that’s a gross comment &c. You are not a victim as a result of her having her guard up.
Her not being receptive to your approach isn’t a wrong done to you any more than it would be if you saw me in the bookstore and complimented my choice of young adult romance, and I smiled and nodded and walked away, which I would, because I’m not here to make friends, I’m here to snag volume 94 and find out what happens to Chase and Bethany. I don’t owe you anything other than modest civility, and neither does anybody else – and nobody else in this thread is saying they’re refusing to give that, are they? They’re just saying that internally, they’re going to be cautious and maybe alarmed, because so many times they or someone they know has been assaulted, and those encounters start with a blind approach. People get hurt as a result of these encounters – you accept that, right? Like you don’t think the false reporting rate going on here is like 98%, do you?
I feel like you’re thinking of this in terms of you personally being treated badly because the deck is stacked against you – like you’re being profiled as a criminal – whereas to me it seems more like the case where you’re driving down the road and see a car backing out of a driveway ahead of you. Most people are good enough drivers that they’ll stop. They’re perfectly capable of seeing you there and not smashing into you. They have every right to back down the driveway like they’re doing. You’re still going to keep watching them pretty closely, aren’t you? You’re treating them like a potential a-backing-into-me-ist. Because you’d be a moron not to, and that’s how people get killed, by not paying attention.
This went on a little too long. What I’m wondering is, in these kinds of scenarios, with the smartassery removed, do you think you’re being mistreated? Or do you think that the real-world scenarios proceed in an entirely different way, in which case, how do they go?