Pity the minority of wretches who actually do have trouble interpreting unspoken communications…
If you have to err on one side or the other, which would it be?
I believe this with every fiber of my being. I think that most guys would be blown away at how true this if there was a way to have them go through a week with us.
Having said that, I feel sorry for most guys. They are most often judged by the most obnoxious of their kind, and that completely sucks.
Both sides of this issue are so adamant about proving their side that they fail to just learn a little bit about the other point of view. I’m not sure there is a solution to any of it, I just know everybody seems to be a bit exasperated by it.
Robot Arm,
It just happens so much that it’s pretty much white noise. Except really irritating white noise. No, it’s like jackhammering outside your window. You get used to it, and once in a while a building goes up that you really like and use a lot and has nice architecture, but most of the time, you want it to go away and let you get on with your life.
You’re bringing up some interesting things about attention, noticing and action. I think I’d like to clarify that a bit. In my opinion, there are two kinds of attention that are relevant to this discussion:
There is passive attention, which doesn’t require a response. This is, like, checking a guy out on the bus, or the girl in the row in front of you at the movies. Everybody does this. I think it’s fairly awesome.
There is active attention, which does require a response. This is “Do you have a husband?”, “I like your hair,” “Man, this bus is taking ages!”, “Have you lived here long?”, “Nice pants, fatty,” etc. This is trickier. Men initiate this significantly more than women. Men make publicly audible observations about women more than women make publicly audible observations about men. Men objectify women more than women objectify men. I don’t think this is the way it should be, but I do think it is the way it is.
In my personal experience, I have been the initiator of active attention with most of my romantic partners. I have chosen to be with the guys who I have noticed, not the ones who have chosen to make themselves noticeable to me. It should not be up to the man to flag his notability to a woman.
I agree that it is difficult for men, and I think this standard does a disservice to everyone. But I think the solution is to actively change the way you choose to interact with people, not to say “oh, well, that’s the way it works” and continue to press your active attention on everyone you can (men) or refuse to communicate your intentions clearly because you’re afraid you’ll be judged for them (women).
Fortunately, I think we’re moving forward as a society, if slowly, and hopefully in fifty years this conversation will be completely outdated! But, yeah, the conventions as they are pretty much suck, and the way to change that is to fix them or eliminate them, not crumple to them.
Seriously. The options are not “date rapist” or “shy autistic”, here.
I completely agree! It’s a lose-lose setup for everybody. Seriously, it’s a wonder anybody manages to get married (or laid). 
How is that an improvement on calling a woman a “tease or bitch”, exactly?
You’re the one who was creating the dichotomy between “middle-aged virgin” or “slapped 90% of the time”, not me. I vote for most men (and most women; most people!) being sensible, respectful and observant.
I suggested those as the extremes; rare, but possible. You’re the one who calls one criminal and one mentally deficient.
I don’t think men objectify women more than vice versa, but I think they do it out loud more, mostly because we’re (generally of course) expected to do the initiating, or even if we don’t initiate, the asking and when you don’t know anything about the person looks are an easily noticeable, potentially flattering thing to talk about. Most of my friends are female (or were, I haven’t seen most of them in a few months because of post-high school dispersion) but I’ll constantly hear about a guy they like and how he won’t talk to them or he’s not picking up their hints. I usually end up asking them why they don’t, you know, just DO IT THEMSELVES and they get the oddest look on their faces like a lightbulb just came on, they honestly never even realized they could DO that (though this usually applies to the asking case more than the talking to case, usually the answer to the first case is shyness).
On the catching signals side, I really do think it’s much less of an noticing problem so much as an interpreting problem. I KNOW when a girl is hitting on me (unless it’s really, really, really subtle or she said something to allow a lot of plausible alternate interpretations) but my brain convinces me they’re just being nice, or this is how they act with all their friends or something. This is partially self-esteem, yes, but I think it’s partially a society pendulum swing too. If we admit we think a girl is hitting on us we’re often considered like we’re JUST talking to the woman because she’s a potential mate and we’re looking for signals because we want to add her to our trophy collection of “things I’ve fucked.” Or maybe we’re just conceited. Either way, it’s much easier to say (and convince yourself) you didn’t notice anything and play the “clueless guy” routine and be “corrected” than it is to shake the “pig” label.
Obviously this is a somewhat polarized, broad brush approach to the issue, but it’s what I’ve generally noticed without writing a book on the concept.
Yes, and I said that the extremes you posited aren’t the case, so there’s no excuse for acting as if it is. You’re the one who keeps talking about “the alternative”, as though there are only two ways to act and no middle ground, and saying things like
which is a false dichotomy, and when you’re called on that, say
The answer is, you don’t have to. You can act like an adult. I act this way and I expect the men in my life to do so as well.
How nice it must be to never make mistakes.
Are you having a terrible day, or is this your normal reaction? Why does everything have to be a fight?
Not a good day, but I’ve had worse.
I started with a point about the OP, and the question of miscommunication. Guys don’t notice every subtle thing that women women would like us to. And many of us assume too much because the consequences are worse if we assume too little. That’s not a popular point to make; I don’t like it much myself. But I speak from experience, and it’s not from being slapped too often.
…is this going to turn into a “women only like assholes and don’t appreciate Nice Guys like me” thread? I hate those.
Not a bit. But when someone calls me a “shy autistic” I tend to take it personally.
You owe me an apology.
And women often don’t notice subtle things men expect us to either. And women don’t always notice the subtle things other women expect us to. And even when the communication isn’t subtle and its verbal, sometimes we STILL manage to misinterpret it. That’s life for those of us who aren’t Deanna Troi.
If its that freakin’ important to her, she will tell you. Yes, that means that this isn’t some early 20th century male female “he does the asking” world where women are forced to be passive objects and men are required to take the active role. Yes, that also means that if someone hasn’t come up to you recently and said “I want to jump your bones” its because it hasn’t been that important to anyone you’ve met to do so.
(My subtle signal to my husband that I wanted to date him was “How come you have never asked me out?” He took the hint.)
Ne? I’m not seeing that direction coming out at all, in fact this thread has been record-settingly, remarkably on topic for the most part.
No, you’re right, actually, I need to practice what I preach and stay on topic. This:
made me worry that it was going there, but forward!
That’s a really interesting point, and I hadn’t considered that aspect of the male dilemma before. Of course, high school has its own weird rules (at least, it did when I was there :smack:), but it seems like this is fundamentally the basic “good guy” problem, of “how do I show I’m actively interested, but that I’m not like those aggressive creepy jerks who are actively interested?” The ultimate solution would be “weed out the aggressive creepy jerks,” but that’s not really practical for the here and now. I’m glad that you’re aware of those issues, because I bet a lot of guys your age aren’t, but I don’t know how to go about fixing them.
Although FWIW, and this is way tangential, I think your having a lot of female friends (a) is a good signifier of the general decline of sexism and (b) will stand you personally very well in the future! Most guys who I hear complaining about not being able to get a date are really complaining about being unable to relate to women as people – so you’ve already won half the battle. 
From what you’ve posted here, you remind me of my little brother (okay, younger brother), who also had mostly female friends in high school, and is now a sophomore at college with still mostly-female friends and more confidence and ease with girls than nearly all of his male friends. I think it really is all about comfort and confidence with the opposite sex, no matter who you are.
??? I didn’t call you a shy autistic. I was exaggerating the extremes you were using to show that they are irrelevant. I didn’t apply them to anyone in this thread. I said explicity that they didn’t apply to the majority of men. That’s the entire point I was making. I think you’re projecting.
Where on earth or in this thread did she call *you *anything. Why do *you * blame someone else for *your *identification with the label “shy autistic” when you never said the example was based on your own behaviour.
If it isn’t based on your own behaviour, then she didn’t call you anything. If you didn’t state that it was all about you, then she couldn’t know you’d take it personally.
Not directly; you said it about middle-aged virgins.
She said it about men who, as described by YOU, have no ability to recognize or understand non-verbal communication. That’s a symptom of autism. You can look it up.
Developmentally normal men are not forced to choose between “assum[ing] there are no signals” and “assum[ing] that everything’s a signal”. If anyone owes anyone an apology it should be you apologizing to the millions and millions of men who manage to do a reasonable job of normal social interaction.
And frankly, I think it’s repulsive that you feel a rapist is better off than a virgin.