This question came up at lunch today:
At what point does a woman become a crossdresser/transvestite? (There should be two different answers because they’re two different things)
c-man
An interesting question that I think has more to do with our cultural biases than anything else. It is now perfectly acceptable for a woman to do just about anything that once was the territory of men. For a woman to be considered a crossdresser I guess she would probably have to affix a moustache and call herself Bruce. Anything short of that in the way of xlothing wouldn’t raise all that many eyebrows at all I should think.
Well, I can give you some historical background on “girl heroes,” as ladies of the stage were called. Before the 1920s, it was unheard of for a woman to wear pants, so it was very titillating for them to do so. Vesta Tilley, Vesta Victoria and even Bea Lillie in her early days made livings dressed up in tuxes singing songs like “Champagne Charlie.” Many 19th century actresses also wore tights onstage, to give the audience a thrilling glimpse of gams.
Then in the 1930s, women like Katharine Hepburn, Marlene Dietrich and Amelia Earhart began wearing mens’ clothing on the streets.
Now, a woman would be a transvestite if she tries to “pass”
as a man. The shading is gray—what is the difference between a butch lesbian like k.d. lang and a pre-operative transsexual like Brandon Teena? I guess what makes a woman a transvestite, nowadays, is just as much what’s in her head as on her body.
By pre-operative you mean Brandon Teena was seeing a counselor, taking hormones, and had a date to go under the knife?
Marc
There’s an interesting lesbian subculture of “drag kings”: lesbians who perform as men. they wear men’s clothing, wear mustaches and beards, and are the mirror image of drag queens.
In our culture, there have been women who wore men’s clothing, like Marlene Dietrich and Greta Garbo. Women in tuxedos are viewed as sophisticated; men in cocktail frocks are viewed as queens.
MGibson—I didn’t follow the story all that closely, but from what I understand Brandon was indeed going to have surgery after he could save the huge amount of money it would have required. After which, of course, he would have been just a guy dressed as a guy. It’s that in-between phase that got him killed . . .
I hate to sound like a bigot but I don’t think it was specifically his sexual identity crises that got him killed. He deceived those around him, including the girls he dated, into thinking he was a man. Some of his friends found out and decided they didn’t like it. So they assaulted and raped in order to exact vengence. And before anyone jumps on me I’m not saying it was ok or in any way justified to do that to him. I’m just saying it was more then being in an “in-between” phase that got him in trouble. The murder was primarily motivated by Brandon going and telling the police what had happened.
Now the original article I read about this was a few years back so I might be missing a few facts. But I don’t recall it mentioning that Teena Brandon was seeing a counselor, taking hormones, or preparing to undergo any sex change operation. Although she herself said during her police interview that she was undergoing a “sexual identity crisis” and I don’t imagine anyone would use that term without having seen someone at least a few times.
Marc
In order to qualify for surgery, Brandon would have had to live as a man 24/7, for one or two years. He would have HAD to lie to his friends and people he dated; what else could he do? Say, “Oh, I’m living as a guy but I’m still physically female?” That just would have gotten him killed sooner.
He was in a no-win situation. In order to get surgery, he had to “live a lie.” Doing that got him killed before he could have the surgery that would have allowed him to STOP lying.
It is wrong for someone in Brandon Teena’s situation to enter into a physical relationship without making the other party fully aware. It is not ok to deceieve those you are entering a sexual relationship with. And I challenge you to find a medical professional who says it is ok for a pre-op transexual to deceive the person they are dating. Bottom line is Brandon did a bad thing. And for the sake of clarity no that didn’t justify what happened to him. (Yes, I repeat that often because I don’t want anyone to get the wrong idea.)
So far as I know Brandon Teena was not undergoing any sort of hormone therapy or psychological therapy during the period of time all of this occured. Does anyone else know for sure?
Marc
Eve wrote:
Not according to the movie Boys Don’t Cry, he wasn’t. (Near the end, in one tender scene with his now-made-aware-of-his-plumbing girlfriend, the movie also implied that Brandon was not genitally dysphoric, in that he accepted his girlfriend pleasuring him down below. I don’t know how accurate the movie is in either of these regards.)
What makes a woman a cd/tv is the same as what makes a man one; an element of sexual arrousal gained by dressing in the other sex’s clothes. (most women who wear trousers, I assume, do not experience this)
If she felt like a man trapped in the body of a woman however, we would be obliged to call her transexual/transgendered. It is a matter of some confusion though as most cd/tv/tg’s are themselves unsure of their gender identity; considering themselves to either occupy a central point on the gender spectrum, or to oscillate from one position to another (hence the medical term gender dysphoria).
Does anyone have any statistics on male-to-female transsexuals vs. female-to-male? It seems that most things I’ve heard about the subject focus on men who believe they are really female, and almost never the other way around. I think I remember a story about a kid who appeared to be female, and was raised as a girl, later realized the truth about himself and now lives as a man, but I can’t place it well enough to even search for it. I’m sure it’s not the only such story but it was made into a book or possibly a documentary, which is why it sticks.
Rosebud—
The reason there were fewer female-to-males reported is that until recently, the surgery was too expensive and complicated, as well as not terribly satisfactory.
A friend of mine who works at a Phila. gender research institute tells me the ratio is now approaching 50/50. Which is yet another reason to believe studies saying that transsexualism is a neuro-ednocrinological birth defect and has nothing to do with sociology.
Fun Fact: The first documented transsexual surgery was performed in the late 1920s on Danish artist Einar Wegener (aka Lili Elbe). Sadly, she died of blood poisoning (no antibiotics back then!).
Rosebud, are you thinking of As Nature Made Him?
Kimstu
Looked Like A Woman But Dressed Like A Man
by Paul Sanchez
There was a girl uptown she kept her lights down low
she kept her breasts taped down so they didn’t show
she had a daytime job, she had a daytime name
but her nightlife baby was a different game
never the kind to wear a thrift store dress
she did it better in a suit and vest
she looked like a woman but dressed like a man
while I was checking her out I saw she had no purse
and though I had my doubts I knew i had done worse
she had a daytime job, she had a daytime name
But her night life baby was a different game
we kept drinking til we both got drunk
and then I started saying what I really thunk
she looked like a woman but dressed like a man
she had muscles and a crewcut, she had shoes like mine
she had a way with a pool cue, she had a pickup line
I guess we closed the joint and then she took me home
and tried to make her point with a doggy bone
I knew that running was the thing to do
but stayed and finished til I saw it through
she looked like a woman but dressed like a man
Kimstu, that’s it, thank you. The mention of the botched circumcision was the key fact that I’d forgotten. That poor kid…
Eve, thanks for the info, I hadn’t thought of it that way before.
The real Lana Tisdel has several objections to Boys Don’t Cry, one of them being that scene. She says that she did not have sex with Brandon after she found out that he was physically female.
It is impossible to know Brandon’s real plans in regards to future sex change operations, but according to the makers of the documentary The Brandon Teena Story his girlfriends apparently believed that he intended to have the operation.
Given what happened to him when he was ultimately found out, do you really think he had the option of telling Lana of his situation? Thousands of working-class gays and lesbians suffer from the same thing - they know how they want to live, they know that they stand to catch hell - or far worse - from homophobes and bigots if they’re found out, so they do their best to cover their own asses while expressing themselves in their chosen sex roles. They do what they can when they don’t have the option of getting out and going to places where they have a better chance of being understood and accepted.
As a footnote, I had the distinct pleasure of meeting Brandon Sexton III, the actor who played Tom in Boys Don’t Cry at the ISO’s summer conference this weekend, where he hosted a talk on the movie and a follow-up discussion on gay and lesbian liberation. He’s a fellow I’m proud to call comrade, and one of the nicest people I’ve ever met.
Alas, the Gay Guy has no additional info on the tv/ts community, except a few acquaintances and personal stories.
If I come across any info I’ll be sure to post it.
Esprix
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Given what happened to him when he was ultimately found out, do you really think he had the option of telling Lana of his situation?
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Then he shouldn't have gotten involved with her. It was unfair to Lana.
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Thousands of working-class gays and lesbians suffer from the same thing - they know how they want to live, they know that they stand to catch hell - or far worse - from homophobes and bigots if they’re found out, so they do their best to cover their own asses while expressing themselves in their chosen sex roles.
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I wasn't aware that a majority of homosexuals duped others into thinking they were a sex that they weren't. In fact I'm pretty sure most of them do not.
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They do what they can when they don’t have the option of getting out and going to places where they have a better chance of being understood and accepted.
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But they don’t deceive the person they’re trying to have a relationship with.
I don’t think homosexuality is wrong and I fully support their right to marriage and all other civil benefits. However I don’t think it is ok for anyone to deceive someone to get them into a relationship.
Marc