Women at Augusta National

Great Debates
61

It is not a technicality.

The fact that the Masters is one of the four majors is not a PGA concept. Two of the other majors, the US Open and The Open (the British Open), are not PGA events (the US Open is a USGA event).

None of these events are on the PGA tournament schedule.

There are many weeks in which there are no PGA events. It simply makes economic sense, since the best players in the world will be at the Masters, and no other event (PGA or otherwise) could compete for coverage necessary to justify the economics.

It is not a de facto event for the PGA - it predates the PGA. The PGA has absolutely no influence over how the event is held.

While lawyers could argue that it is a PGA event, I can hardly see how they could make the case. For crying out loud, they allow non-PGA members to compete in it! Show me any other PGA event that does that, and I’ll reconsider your point.

62

If I’m not mistaken (and I’m not) Annika is not a PGA member and she’ll be competing at the Colonial.

Almost every PGA event has some non-PGA members (amateurs, sponser’s exemptions, etc.) competing.

As for economic sense, what about this weekend with the Match Play (with the top PGA members) and the “regular” event.

I’ve never said the Masters was a PGA event, I just said that it might as well be. Kind of like that old saying: walks like a duck, quacks like a duck…

63

Nicklaus, Palmer, Casper, Player and other players past their prime are not taking a spot away from a more qualified players at the Masters.

The Masters is an invitational tournament and as such their field in the neighborhood of 100 players. Most PGA Tour golf tournaments have 144 man fields so the Masters could accomodate up to 44 more players. But those players have not played well enough to earn an invitation.

64

Whatever they want to.

That’s the whole point – Augusta Membership is held out to be the privilege of successful, powerful, prestigious members of the business community of the area. There was a time when such a descriptor only applied to men and therefore men were the only ones who needed a membership and if their little wives wanted to come in the afternoons to play a little round of golf with their lady friends while hubby was off earning the money to keep them well-heeled, well, they could allow that so long as the ladies didn’t make a nuisance of themselves.

Such days are long gone.

Whether or not business deals are discussed there (does anybody really believe that they’re not) Augusta wants to hold on to the reputation that its built throughout the years that anybody who is anybody important is (or could be) an Augusta member. That’s very obviously no longer the case and to suggest so is to insult every woman (and any other minority without representation in the membership ranks) who is an important member of the business community. It’s condescending to say the least. The way in which Augusta has dug in its heels comes across as nothing so much as:

“Well, it’s all fine and good that you’ve fought your way up to become the senior partner at a law firm with $26 million in annual billings and 7 Fortune 500 companies as clients, sweetheart, but you’re not nearly as important as the male head of your tax department – your subordinate – to us here at Augusta. Why don’t you go join some other club and leave us men be?”

They want to claim to be the finest and most prestigious golf club in the country. They may have the finest course but the gap in their rhetoric about their membershp and the obvious – if not bylaw mandated –
prejudice in their membership procees complete negates their claims to prestige as a club. If Augusta stopped with all of their self-hype (as opposed to course hype, I’ll grant them that) then I doubt Martha Burk, et al, would be nearly as strident about the issue.

They’ve made their anachronistic, illogically prejudiced bed, though, and they’re going to have to lie in it or burn it, their choice.

(As a female executive who has seen herself passed over for or begrudgingly offered “privileges” freely given male subordinates, I’ll be there to applaud when the inferno inevitably occurs.)

65

John Mace, Annika is a member of the PGA - and the LPGA Tour specifically (so you are mistaken).

The only non-PGA members at PGA events have qualified to participate, they just have not yet earned their tour status. Anyone can join the USGA, but you have to qualify to join the PGA.

For example, ANYONE can enter the US Open (not the final tournament, they still have to qualify, but not through any of the PGA’s qualifying standards). Hence, the word “open”.

And let me correct an error in my previous post - the Masters does not predate the PGA.

So, no, it doesn’t walk like a duck, or quack like a duck. I’ll agree it looks like a duck. But that standard doesn’t allow us to call a wooden decoy an actual duck.

There are multiple PGA Tours, and hence, multiple PGA Tour events each weekend. But the Masters ain’t one of them.

tlw, while I agree with your point, I don’t agree with some of the comments you use to get there. Augusta National does not hold out their membership as “the privilege of successful, powerful, prestigious members of the business community of the area.” In fact, they don’t “hold out” their membership - they keep it private. There are many (male) successful, powerful prestigious members of the business community of the area that are never invited to join.

They don’t self-hype Augusta National. You probably would never have heard of it, if not for the Masters. The Masters is a tournament that Augusta National hosts. The Masters has all the prestige, and they do hype the tournament.

They really, really, could care less if you or anyone else thinks the club is prestigious. And that is their point. But again, I agree with you, their right to be stupid.

66

Of course, tlw, neither you, nor Martha Burk, have a single shred of evidence that a woman was ‘passed over’ for anything at Augusta, do you? I have yet to hear the name of a single woman that had any claim to a membership and was denied. Memberships are by invitation, can any woman show she should have been invited, but wasn’t?

BTW, I think AZCowboy is being exceedingly generous by suggesting that Burk has any objective other than garnering publicity the NCWO. There are far bigger fish to fry WRT numbers or overall effect on women, but no fish bigger WRT publicity.

67

AZ,
Sponsor’s exemptions do not have to be PGA members. IIRC one of the current members (maybe Mickelson?) won on such an exemption while still in college. I am sure if he was a member of a pro organization the NCAA would’ve kicked him out. They kick out athletes for having agents, much less belonging to a pro organization in their sport.

Bill Murray plays the Pebble Beach pro-am. Is he trying for a tour card?

Also, I think the PGA and LPGA are separate. Is she going to protest the fact women are allowed to play PGA events, but men are barred by rule from playing LPGA?

Anyone who is anyone is a member? Not Bill Gates

68

tlw:

Cite? When has Augusta ever said that anybody who is anybody important could be a member? Because, in fact, they can’t.

Augusta has only about 300 members. The average age is 72! Even for rich, powerful friends of current members, it is still very hard to get in. And the only way in is to be invited by a current member.

Augusta is just a clubhouse for rich old men and their friends. It is not right that they should be forced to let anyone join just because they are “anybody important.” It’s their clubhouse, let them play with their friends. I used to have a treehouse in my backyard with a few of my friends, and if someone told me I had to let people I didn’t even know join the club I would not have agreed. The difference is, my few friends and I were actually a larger percentage of the neighborhood than the Augusta membership is a percentage of the country.

69

Wow – Thank you tlw for one of the best explanations of this issue that I’ve seen yet. I’m saving it to use in discussions with some of the people who just don’t get it.

One point that hasn’t yet been made in this thread is that much of the discrimation in this country has worked not through laws, but through “gentleman’s agreements”. Certainly, there have been discriminatory laws against women and minorities, but there has also been the simple “we don’t serve your kind here” attitude. No Jews staying at this hotel? No blacks living in this neighborhood? No gay people employed by this company? No women members of this club? Why no, of course we don’t have a rule restricting it – it just doesn’t happen. In particular, in the case of a private, invitation-only club, there is no need to have a bylaw restricting membership to men. All they need is the attitude of Hootie Johnson and the other members of Augusta National.

Of course Hootie is welcome to fight this fight to the bitter end. But he is wrong, and the longer he clings to a morally wrong position, the more contempt he will bring upon himself and his organization. All Martha Burk did was write a letter. It was Hootie’s response which launched the media circus, the editorials, and the national discussion.

70

SpoilerVirgin, if only it were that simple.

Those who accuse Hootie of being anything other than honorable, probably don’t know him.

If you wish to contine espousing ignorance, feel free. If you would like to learn a little about Hootie, read this.

And in fairness, if you would like to know more about Martha Burk, you can read this.

If you want a balanced view of this issue overall, read both.

But until you will support the elimination of freedom to associate with whomever you choose, you would serve us all better in keeping your uninformed opinion to yourself.

Your righteous indignation could be put to better use on some issue that might actually help women, or any other minority, than this one.

Martha’s (inevitable) win here is nothing more than window dressing. Her tactics are disreputable (coercion almost to the point of extortion).

71

I didn’t say Hootie was not honorable. I said he was wrong, and I still believe that. That’s hardly espousing ignorance. For the record, I am a serious, passionate fan of the PGA Tour and the Masters. I am better informed about this particular controversy than almost any other issue discussed in GD. I have, in fact read many, many articles about both Hootie Johnson and Martha Burk. For good measure, I just read the two that you linked.

Of course people have the freedom to associate with whomever they wish. For instance, those members of Augusta National who believe that their discrimatory policies are wrong have the right to resign, so as not to associate themselves with those policies. Those corporations who believe that Augusta National is wrong have the right not to be associated with them through sponsorship of the Masters. Hootie and his buddies are welcome to have their private little club. They just can’t expect the rest of the world not to comment.

Martha Burk’s “tactics” involved writing a letter. Hootie bears the responsibility for the media circus, as explained in this quote from one of the articles you linked.

72

SpoilerVirgin, what got my goat in your post was this:

Because Hootie is not wrong or immoral. Stupid, stubborn, shortsighted - perhaps. But legally, ethically, his position is solid. Not the best at public relations perhaps.

But if this is true:

Then she was not honest in her letter. The letter read, in part:

Clearly, a thinly veiled threat.

Now, you have suggested in this thread that Hootie started all this with his response. This statement in Martha’s original letter was clearly a threat to take her grievances public.

Funny you didn’t also quote this for balance, from one of the articles I linked above:

Now, while I think Hootie’s position is shortsighted, it is not wrong or immoral.

73

O.K., I think we’re hanging on the confusion between two different questions:

  1. Should Hootie be allowed to keep women out of Augusta National?

  2. Should Hootie keep women out of Augusta National?

My answer to question #1 is yes. My answer to question #2 is no. It is on the basis of that second question that I say that Hootie is wrong.

We also have completely different readings of the passage you quote from Martha Burk’s letter. I see no threat. She says that if the issue isn’t resolved now, it will remain unresolved. Nowhere does she say that she will take any particular action if the issue remains unresolved, and I have no problem believing that, given the large number of significantly more important issues facing women, this matter would have gone no further had Hootie not made his inflammatory statements to the media.

As far as I’m concerned, Hootie was offered honey, and he chose to respond with a flamethrower.

74

Just to clarify: yes, Phil Mickelson won a PGA Tour event while he was still at Arizona State. Every so often an amateur wins a PGA event. It’s no big deal. They just don’t get any prize money.

As for Bill Murray, the Pebble Beach Pro-Am is really two different tournaments in one: the PGA event, and the Pro-Am. Bill Murray’s score (minus handicap) only counts in the Pro-Am, not the tour event. It’s also entirely possible for Bill’s playing partner to miss the cut in the Tour event but stick around anyway since they are still in contention in the Pro-Am.

One last thing: there did used to be a PGA tournament the same week as the Masters. It was called the Deposit Guaranty Classic (IIRC), had probably the smallest purse of the year, and was played mostly by guys who were looking for the 2-year exemption that came with winning it (just like any other tour event). It’s been phased out because sponsorship and interest in it simply dried up.

75

SpoilerVirgin, regarding the letter, I think you are being quite gracious. She did great until the “so that this is not an issue when the tournament is staged next year.” It reminds me of some old ganster movie, where Guido extorts money from the honest business owner, and then offhandedly asks how the family is. Why does she presume that it would be an issue, it never has been before?

Thanks, ElwoodCuse, for the clarifications provided.

76

Right - I just used him as an example that non-PGA members do play in events. Come to think of it, aren’t the winners of the US and British Amateurs automatically invited?

This isn’t a threat? Was she supposed to say “Let a woman in, or Iwill lead a boycott of your sponsors?” If she just wanted a member, why bring up sponsors at all?

77

A common opinion here seems to be “they ought to let women in, but it’s their right not to.”

IMHO, it’s actually a good thing that there are some places in the world where people can go to be around only members of the same sex. Guys can act alot differently when they’re just around other guys than they can when there’s womenfolk about. Sometimes it’s good to have a break from the opposite sex. I presume women have similiar sentiments and would like to have places to go to be around only women. The issue is nothing like race. Having, for instance, a men-only poker night has none of the sinister motivations of excluding black people from a gathering.

So not only does Augusta have a right to exclude women, I think that gender segregated private clubs are a valuable thing to have around. And since the PGA itself is de facto segregated (as an organization, that woman playing a single event is something else) I don’t see any problem with a gender segregated organization having a gender segregated private club host its flagship event.

I’d have a little sympathy to the women opposing this if we were still back in the 60’s when all important business was taken care of at places like this, when private clubs were the only place for the powerful to network. But now, when women make up a signigicant percentage of this nation’s mid-to-upper level executives, I don’t think there’s such a disadvantage to women created by these clubs. Heck, a couple of my potential connections for getting a job out of law school or an internship this summer are women, people who I couldn’t have met at a male-only club. So the career advancement issues just aren’t there any more regarding these clubs.

78

B-B-But…if we can’t blame the ol’ boy network, who can we blame?

This is kinda like men wondering what women do in the bathroom together. We’ll never know unless we can see for ourselves, but we’re not allowed to so we assume the worst.

Imagine our disappointment when we find out that they’re just peeing or shooting the stuff while waiting in line. Same thing here. The first woman walks into Augusta and says “Now, let’s talk business like you guys always do”, and they say “Nah, let’s watch the game and smoke cigars and fart and drink gin and tonics like we always do”.

It’s really no big friggin’ deal. It’s just men being men, so far as I’m concerned, and if they want to piss on a tree and eat raw red meat around a campfire without women around, bully for them. They were invited, they pay for the privilege, let 'em do whatever.