None of the eye witnesses thought it was anything out of the ordinary. Even if they spotted the systemic misogyny, there’s little point in reacting if her own father doesn’t care to.
Like identifying bad parenting, you see it, but unless it’s blatantly criminal, you just walk by and ‘tsk, poor kid!’ In your head.
Does either ‘catcalling’ or ‘wolf whistling’ denote anything on the ragged fringes of respectful to anyone?
Would you be cool with gay men wolf whistling your 13yr old son right before your eyes? Would you remain quiet? Would you tell him it’s a compliment? Would you want him to feel it’s a compliment?
You seem to think what constitutes sexual objectification is up to debate. It isn’t. Whistling at a woman is a clear sign the whistler is objectifying them. What’s up for debate is whether this is offensive behavior.
I know a woman who has no problem being sexually objectified. She loves being objectified. I fear what’s going to happen to her psychologically when she is no longer sexually objectified because it feeds her soul.
This doesn’t mean shit about how I feel about it. Or another woman.
Your daughter was 13 fucking years old. Of course she’s not going to be bothered over being a sexual object. She had no frame of reference to enable her to evaluate that experience. Guess what? That’s why grooming works so well. You can make a kid do all kinds of inappropriate, unhealthy things because a kid has no way of knowing they are being taken advantage of. Kids don’t know that good-feeling things aren’t necessarily good for them.
What is offensive is definitely in the eye of the beholder, but that doesn’t mean we can’t judge the appropriateness of something. Whistling at someone is just like anything else. Take dead baby jokes. I can tell a dead baby joke around some people and get laughter out of them. Other people might not be bothered by jokes like that, even if they don’t find them funny. But should I tell dead baby jokes regardless who my audience is, no matter the context? Hell no. Because there’s a high probability that someone will be offended if I behave like that. Whistling at a woman on the street is the same thing. Just because there are some women who love that kind of thing doesn’t mean the women who are bothered are crazy or unreasonable. It just means that people respond to sexual objectification differently. A guy who whistles at a random woman is basically saying they don’t care what kind of woman she is. He’s gonna whistle whether she likes it or not. How is that not offensive?
The whole statement deserves an ovation, but I wanted to address what is above.
It often doesn’t end well. I’m watching a couple girlfriends deal with this as they hit their 50s. We really didn’t teach women (and probably still don’t - though God knows I tried with my youngest) to get enough value from their inner selves. Too often we see ourselves as valuable only in relation to others - our attractiveness, who we married, motherhood, even our careers…then you get to the point in life where you are invisible rather than attractive, your kids leave home, etc…and you don’t have an inner self to fall back on.
That’s the other disturbing thing about “because I’m pretty enough.” In a woman’s life she is going to spend more time in more situations not being “pretty enough” - its really important that you learn that pretty shouldn’t matter in how you are treated or in how you treat others (which isn’t the same thing as doesn’t matter - too often it does, but internalize the “shouldn’t matter”).
And in internalizing that pretty shouldn’t matter, those “compliments” aren’t really something that are looked for from strangers. They aren’t helping us shore up our inner selves.
Guys, don’t whistle at strange women. Tell other guys to cut it the fuck out when they whistle at strange women. And if a strange guy whistles at your THIRTEEN year old daughter, kick their fucking ass and don’t let your daughter learn that she is only “worthy” of being demeaned in such a way because she is “pretty enough.” Because someday she will be sitting across from a therapist who starts to point out how she learned it was OK to let men treat her like shit.
The woman I’m worried about is my older sister. She’s going through this big time. She’s recently divorced, her kids are grown and pushing back on her in various ways, so she’s got these issues to deal with. But she’s also dealing with the fact that she’s a 20-something stuck in a 50-something’s body. She is used to basking in the male gaze and enjoying all the benefits that flow from that, and now the flow is drying up. Identity crisis!
We couldn’t be more different from one another. She loves being catcalled. She loves being hollered at by the scrub sitting in the passenger seat of his best friend’s car. She’d be overjoyed being called “beautiful” in the workplace. I find all of this highly problematic.
My sister is envious of me right now because she’s going through an identity crisis that I will never have to deal with. But I’ve spent much of my life envying her and her exciting life, so it all balances out.
This is truly one of the saddest things I’ve read in the last week. WHY didn’t you tell her that her value comes from inside, not from what some creeper on the street thinks about her fuckableness looks? You failed as a father and a human when she need you to tell her this. And you seem to think she was paid a compliment.
One—probably the best—possible interpretation of the incident is that the daughter is self-aware and worldly-wise enough to already know all of this, and responded as she did in a winking way that really meant something like “What schmucks!”
But yeah, there are other possibilities that are far more disturbing.
As the father of a 15 year girl who is very much taking on her mother’s attributes this is something that concerns me. What would I do? what should I do in such a situation?
It isn’t a scenario that has ever come up, my natural protectiveness will of course kick-in but what to do for the best? Would my daughter even prefer that I challenge it?
I’d like to think that I could challenge the behaviour without it escalating into violence, I think it can be in most cases and should be but at the same time if the feeling of the adults is that this situation is on a knife-edge then it could plausibly be argued that getting the hell out of there is the least worst option.
I don’t know enough about the situation to aim any criticism at your parents (not just your dad of course) but I can confidently state that not talking about it…at all…was probably an error (one of many that all parents make and I certainly do I’m sure) I think I can confidently state that after the incident I would explain what I did and why.
I have already taken the opportunity on many occasions to be clear with my kids regarding what I expect in terms of kind, thoughtful and respectful behaviour from them towards others. My son in particular is fully aware of exactly what I consider that behaviour entails with regards to women and my daughter is a full part of that conversation as well.
All fine words of course but as Mike Tyson said, “everyone has a plan until you hit them in the face” and I do worry that my response might fall short.
Your post has prompted a good deal of thought for me monstro, so thanks for that. She’s coming for a bike ride with me tomorrow and I think I might just let the subject bubble up in conversation and see what type of response works for her as well.
This is really true. I used to belong to this woman’s group and one of the exercises was “bragging practice” - brag about yourself to the group, brag about three things. And none of these women could do it. One evening the woman that ran the group, one of these people that’s made a career preaching empowerment - was like “I have a wonderful husband that loves me” “I have a supportive network of friends” “after I fucked up x situation,I was able to recover without falling apart completely”.
Every single “brag” from everyone -EVEN THE GROUP LEADER- was either a brag about someone other than herself, or something kind of backhanded, like bragging about how well you compensate for your many flaws. When it was my turn I was like “I’m beautiful, I’m smart and my yoga practice has helped give me an awesome toned body”, and my fellow group members looked at me like I’m from Mars.
And catcalls aren’t validation. They’re misogynistic, a rating system for random women. I got catcalled by some guy once and ignored it. But a nearby woman (this was on a crowded Manhattan sidewalk) reacted, I guess she turned around or something. And the man told her that he wasn’t talking to her, she was a fat pig. It was brutal.
What would I do? what should I do in such a situation?
I wish my parents (especially my father) had done something. I wouldn’t have wanted my father to unleash white hot rage at them, but he could have put us in front of him as we walked through the crowd. We would have felt safer, for one. But I wouldn’t have been groped if my father had been walking behind me.
But I think knowing what not to do is much more important than knowing what to do. I think if I had been bold enough to bring up what happen to my father and I had expressed all the negative feels to him, I would have wanted to hear validation and sympathy (“Of course you feel that way! What happened was scary! I was scared too!”) rather than excuse-making and invalidation (“Those guys were just being nice, in their own awkward way. Don’t be afraid of them.”) After all these years, I don’t know which kind of response my father would have given me. I love him, but he is not always the most sensitive person.
From what you say it sounds like it was more the lack of explanation or acknowledgement that left a lasting impression so I hope at least that I can guard against that.
FWIW, it is actually my son who worries about such things, he is a sensitive little soul and can’t grasp why people would be mean for no apparent reason and finds it hard to accept it (very much like me) and has needed some careful handling to guide him through some situations. The danger with that of course is the assumption that my daughter is better able to shrug it off and though I think that is true it is something I need to be wary of.
“Hey, that isn’t ok.” (I’m kidding about kicking their asses) If YOU feel safe enough to do so (and if you don’t feel safe enough to do so, imagine how your daughter feels). Then pull your daughter aside. Tell her some men are assholes. Tell her that she is beautiful, but that she is also strong. That the world will sometimes be a shitty place because of inherent sexism. That you haven’t experienced it, but that you know most women have, and that she should talk to her mom, or a teacher, or a friends mom, or any strong older woman she admires if she needs to - and that she can talk to you and you will LISTEN. That it isn’t her responsibility to be attractive to men or to make them feel better (or to not distract them in class by having shoulders or knees) - although men will often try to place that responsibility on her. And finally, every human being is worthy of respect - including her - she may not always get it (and, being human, she may not always get it), be she deserves it - and if she isn’t getting it, she should consider her options for changing that - sometimes that’s making a scene, sometimes that’s walking away.
And “hey, that isn’t ok” is a good response when you see it happen. Whatever the violation of civility is - racism, sexism, ableism.
Oh, on the responsibility of looking good for men. We’ve done this one here before, but unless you are her significant other - she is probably not dressing up for you. She’s probably doing it for herself. She might be doing it to attract men - but that doesn’t necessarily mean you - and unless you are in place where that sort of interaction happens (like a bar or a party) - that motivation is unlikely. Women generally aren’t looking for dates on the street unless that is how they make a living - and women who aren’t prostitutes don’t want to be treated like one any more than if you aren’t employed by the restaurant and just having dinner, you don’t want to go fetch beer for the next table at the restaurant. She might be doing it to impress or intimidate other women. She may be doing it as a costume, to project something that is difficult for her to project about herself in jeans and a sweatshirt without makeup. She may like the aesthetic effect.
I’m well into middle age. My nails are long and hot pink. They aren’t long and hot pink because men find it sexy. They aren’t even long and hot pink because my husband finds it sexy (nails are about the last step I’d take for him, he really doesn’t notice nails). They are long and hot pink because I enjoy looking at them long and hot pink - and August is a hot pink time of year - in another two months they will likely be long and the color of red wine. They are long and hot pink because I eat my cuticles - and keeping them long and manicured keeps me from gnawing my fingers bloody.
Going through this now, to an extent. I always have believed in my inherent worth, and thought that although people were reacting to my looks initially, that they were mostly engaged by my wit, intelligence and charm. I still think I’m fabulous, and there’s definitely a freedom that comes with that invisibility.
It’s shocking to hit your fifties and realize that you’re completely invisible, and for many men, once you fail to sexually attract them, you have no value. It’s also shocking and dismaying to realize that it matters at all to you: a strong, independent feminist.
The socialization is pervasive, and sneaky and non-stop. We need to do so much better by our daughters (and sons).
Posts like this, and monstro’s post 283, are why misogyny at the SDMB is a problem. Because if we drive away insightful, intelligent women like @Dangerosa, @monstro, and @Kimstu, we lose posts like this. And the board would be lessened thereby.
Yes, that is my instinctive reaction, I think that is the way to go. The conversations about self-worth etc. that you go on to list are…hopefully…the messages she’s been immersed in throughout her life but certainly it’d be necessary to revisit that in the aftermath of any such incident.
I still think I’m fabulous, and there’s definitely a freedom that comes with that invisibility.