And for those who try to argue that only x% of men are rapists or criminals, it’s irrelevant since none of have metatags that label is as “rapist”, or “asshole when drunk” or “likeable, goofy, rom-com guy”. So women don’t know who the fuck we are. And, women should be allowed to go about their business without being pestered, and potentially threatened, by every dick on two legs.
And I’m a guy btw.
For the record, I am fully aware of the difference between a compliment and a catcall. But part of the conversation in this thread has talked about compliments, and I wanted to be transparent, rather than just say “Catcalls are stupid.” The compliment thing is the more interesting conversation to me, since it isn’t as obviously bad.
It seems to me that not everyone agrees with you. @Cat_Whisperer responded negatively to @Dinsdale’s where he would compliment a shirt or shoes he liked to people he already knew in the office, a setting where people are expected to know and talk to each other. Apparently it could make the relationship awkward because you’d now wonder if I wanted something else out of you.
In particular, the shoes compliment was definitely one I was told was both safe and likely to lead to further conversation. Basically, if you care enough to have nice shoes, it likely would be a hobby. And I remember the excited conversations I would sometimes get after said compliments, as they were happy someone noticed. Same when I pointed out I really liked the color stripe someone put in their hair. Or, yes, when their shirt was genuinely interesting.
I even see people taking @Dinsdale’s compliments and treating them like he was talking about catcalling, so I’m not 100% sure everyone in the thread sees them as distinct. I do–one is from a distance and crude and objectifying, the other is specifically meant to be nice and friendly, while actually having a conversation, even if only a brief one.
And here’s hoping I’m not messing up by bringing any of this up.
Schrodinger’s Rapist
My mother (born in the 30s) used to tell me that when she was young she liked it when men whistled at her, and she didn’t understand why I disliked it. They were just whistling, not making crude comments, of course. I doubt anyone has ever liked being the butt of crude comments.
I never liked having strangers tell me I was hot, etc. I mostly avoided it by the time I was 20, though. I’m not sure how – I was an attractive young woman, in the way that most healthy young women are attractive. Perhaps it helped that I tended to walk and dress like a man.
Actual compliments are fine, sometimes even from strangers. When I put a stripe in my hair I was happy to have people comment favorably on it. I sometimes compliment strangers. In the elevator at work, if a woman is wearing a really nice piece of jewelry I might say something, for instance. And I certainly didn’t avoid complimenting people I knew – for instance, if a guy I knew wore an interesting tie, I’d probably compliment him on it when I said “hi” in the hallway.
Of course I don’t comment on people’s appearance at actual work interactions. I mean, if what I notice is your necklace or tie while you are presenting, one of us is doing something wrong.
The office is a professional setting and the context is work. People do, of course, talk about things other than work while at work; but unless the conversation had turned to shoes in general, I would think commenting on somebody’s shoes in the office to be odd enough to seem skeezy.
Did you compliment mens’ shoes in the office, also?
Honestly, it’d depend on the shoes. At my old job all of my immediate coworkers were men and a new pair of shoes always triggered a lengthy discussion. That being said, the focus was on the shoes themselves and I can’t recall the discussion every veering into how said shoes looked on the person wearing them. Furthermore, if I sensed that the wearer was uncomfortable with the topic, I’d drop the subject without comment and move on with my day. I think your point still stands, though.
Really? I have paid compliments on my coworkers’ shoes and other articles of clothing before, and I don’t think I’ve done it in a skeevy way. I have a coworker who wears my favorite colors frequently, and he has a couple of outfits that I can’t help but to gush over. I have another male coworker who has developed a dapper style in his post-divorce years, and sometimes I’ll pay him a compliment on his shoes or his tie whenever they catch my eye.
There’s a skeevy way to pay a compliment and there’s a non-skeevy way. “You sure are working those pants, honey!” is skeevy in the workplace. “I like the color of those pants” isn’t. “Those shoes are so sexy” is skeevy. “I love boots like those. Where’d you get them?” is not. I probably wouldn’t want a rando guy to compliment on me on my pants, even if he just remarked on the color. But I wouldn’t mind if another woman did, even if she said something super personal like, “Those pants go well with your figure.” It’s all about context for me.
There are some coworkers who could pay me a compliment on my appearance in the most innocent fashion and I’d feel a certain way about it because they have a track record of saying inappropriate things. But most folks are just making conversation and not trying to make a pass. I’d like to think that the two male coworkers I compliment regularly know me well enough to know I’m not trying to push up on them. One is considerably older than me and the other is gay.
Certainly it is possible to give compliments and have the receiver appreciate it. That happens all the time, but it’s often because there is already some kind of established relationship where it’s clearly understood the compliment is appropriate. But with a stranger, it’s going to be much harder for the giver to know if the compliment will be welcome. Someone who is savvy on picking up on non-verbal clues and body language may be able to deduce that the receiver would appreciate a comment, but most people who throw out comments don’t have that skill. In fact, I would guess that they are the types who are very bad at reading social clues and don’t pick up on the fact that the receiver does not appreciate the complement.
The times when it might be appropriate to give a stranger a complement is when it is for something really unique about them. Saying “nice shirt” is just a random statement posing as a complement to start a conversation. But saying something like “Nice shirt! That’s an authentic Ramones t-shirt from their '74 debut at the CBGB!” is true complement. It’s a statement recognizing something unique and remarkable and there is genuine appreciation for what is being complemented. It’s not something said with ulterior motives of self-validation or trying to pick up the person.
Shoes? I doubt it. But I’ve complimented men on their ties, shirts, and sweaters. Hopefully i did it in a non-skeevy way.e
There’s a line between appropriate and inappropriate interactions between people who are not otherwise aquinted. If I speak polite words to people, in passing, in public, as I go about my business its not something that I’m “doing to them” by any social sandard that I’m aware of, not here in the land of hat tipping anyways. “Cool boots” in that context isn’t some underhanded attempt to objectify. Its me recognizing some cool boots I saw outloud. I dont need any special permissions to do so and the burden is on me to do so in a socially appropriate manner.
How things like this are intended, as well as how they are received are equally subjective and often don’t follow as certainly as one might expect.
I found your interpretation of the post to which you were specifically replying to be unreasonable. Catcalling is not ok. Speaking words to other people in public is heavily context dependent, and heavily subjective to boot. Which seemed to be the point.
You are correct. Thank you.
(Not necessarily aimed at anything CW) One thing I really appreciate about the Dope, is the ability to receive perspectives completely different from what I experience IRL. It is initially shocking - but ultimately refreshing - to go about my life knowing that I am consistently among the most liberal folk in a pretty liberal crowd, ad to come here and be called a “dinosaur.” 
I wonder what proportion of women share the view some expressed in this thread - which impressed me as somewhat extreme - of viewing any unsolicited social interaction as a potential threat, and being incapable of/unwilling to ascertain whether an utterance is innocuous.
I’m willing to believe that the consensus expressed by women here is representative of women in general.
I wonder what proportion of women share the view some expressed in this thread - which impressed me as somewhat extreme - of viewing any unsolicited social interaction as a potential threat, and being incapable of/unwilling to ascertain whether an utterance is innocuous.
Some of the views have been extreme, IMHO. But the high derp factor on the internet invites the formulation of extreme-sounding rules.
By “high derp factor”, I mean the high number of internet denizens who can’t be trusted with more nuanced rules because they have poor social skills. Like, I don’t think complimenting a woman on her clothing choices is always inappropriate. Many of the guys I work with have paid me compliments along those lines and I almost always appreciate it. But as I said upthread, there’s a good way to pay a compliment and a bad way. It’s not just the words you use that matter, but a whole lot of other stuff that can’t be easily enumerated…stuff that super-derps might even think is unfair (like how a woman can get away with saying something that a man can’t). So it’s just easier to say “don’t compliment”. You can’t go wrong by following this rule. You can go wrong if you don’t.
Let me reiterate what several others have said. There are several layers to unsolicited “utterances”.
Potential threat. This can mean a physical threat and/or an emotional threat (the man seeing a smile or positive response as an “in” and then pestering/following/stalking). Neither of those possibilities are remote.
Annoyance. Unsolicited “utterances” and stares and being hit on are part and parcel of daily life for an attractive woman. It becomes seriously annoying that men feel it’s their right to intrude on your life just because they like the way you look.
Women are not a monolith, so the frequency and tenor of “utterances” they receive are going to vary, as are their responses to them. As a whole, though, women are intensely socialized to believe that attracting a man is their most important purpose, and that angering a man is bad. This leads to what appears to be positive responses to catcalls and the like. As a younger woman, there was a certain satisfaction, sometimes, to eliciting that response, because I’d been trained to believe that was my highest calling, and that being pretty was somehow synonymous with my worth.
Ultimately, though, both of those items lead to an unwillingness to engage at all, which then leads to sad, put-upon men to wail about “mean” women.
You’re quite welcome. 
First, we’re not talking about any “unsolicited social interaction,” we’re talking about personal comments. Saying, “Nice weather we’re having” to a co-worker is completely fine. Saying, “Nice blouse” is a personal comment.
Second, women are capable of and willing to ascertain whether an utterance is innocuous. “Nice blouse” can be completely innocuous. Then next week, my co-worker says, “Nice pants.” Then the week after that he “accidentally” brushes my breast when reaching for a pen at my desk. Trust me when I say that I wish every “innocuous” comment men give to women was truly innocuous; some are, and some aren’t. I can’t tell which one it is until I see the pattern emerging, and I’ve seen it often enough that my guard goes up as soon as the pattern starts. If you don’t start with the personal comments, I don’t have to start wondering if the same stupid old pattern is starting up again.
As for the proportions of women’s opinions on these things, that’s hard to say. Women aren’t a monolithic block any more than any group is. I’m in my fifties, and that is definitely colouring my opinions in this thread - I’m sick to death of all of this kind of bullshit that I’ve been experiencing since I grew breasts. I think it’s safe to say the majority of women don’t like being objectified.
The other danger with looking at percentages is a tendency to disregard the opinions people don’t want to hear because part of a group doesn’t agree with the majority of the group. “See? monstro’s sister doesn’t care about catcalls, so it isn’t that bad!” (Which is not to criticize her - I hate them, and they upset me; I wish I could shrug them off like that.)
This is an extremely complex topic, played out almost completely in the shades of grey. Probably the most important take-away from these discussions is for men to listen to and believe women instead of getting defensive, and for men to understand that what they see and hear about is very much the tip of the iceberg of what women are actually experiencing.
[quote=“Cat_Whisperer, post:156, topic:916937”]…
I’m sick to death of all of this kind of bullshit that I’ve been experiencing since I grew breasts. …
[/quote]
I started this thread in response to my surprise and displeasure over hearing my daughter’s experiences. I was somewhat dismayed when some respondents impressed me as criticizing my attempts at innocuous pleasantries, and presenting themselves as unable to discern between innocuous pleasantries, and creepy behavior.
Believe me, my tendency is to pretty much ignore everyone I encounter, anticipating that they will be ignorant, rude, etc. But I think that it would make for a pretty unpleasant society if everyone acted that way. So I try to - at the very least - smile and be pleasant. (NO - I’m not telling women they would be prettier if they smile. I’m observing that if I smile, that improves MY mood, and my anecdotal experience is that is I smile, some percentage of passersby will smile as well. Who knows - perhaps at the same time a greater number of women will scurry past feeling threatened by my smile.)
Time, place, and manner all are relevant. I think it unfortunate if you lump every guy who says “nice blouse” in with the asshole(s) who escalated to copping a feel. I am not disputing your experience. Just as I’ve never catcalled a woman, I’ve never grabbed a breast or butt (well, outside of mutually agreeable situations.)
That suggests a quite different conversation. I’m often surprised when women dress in a manner this dinosaur would consider more revealing and “provocative” than a situation calls for. Such as sheer blouses and visible lingerie in professional work situations.
I’m not saying any woman deserves to be mistreated because of their choice of attire. But I often think it disingenuous for someone to dress in a manner that any sentient being would realize is likely to engender certain responses, and then act shocked and offended when such response is obtained. Same applies to people with visible body modifications, young people dressing like thugs… Hell, if I dress like a slob and go shopping, I shouldn’t be shocked if I’m treated as something other than a prosperous potential customer.
But, I oughtn’t hijack my own thread (any more than it already has been.)
That’s a huge insult to all women.
If you don’t understand why women should not have to “ascertain whether an utterance is innocuous,” then you simply cannot understand a women’s perspective on this.
If a woman tells a man he is attractive, does the man have to “ascertain” whether her motives are innocuous? The idea strikes most people as ridiculous. But the idea that women have to mentally vet every man who speaks to them, because of the non-zero chance that she could be raped or murdered by him, is not ridiculous to anyone.
Cripes, in more innocent times, the idea that men were cads still abounded. There used to be an Urban Legend that men lied to women in the form of going through mock weddings just to get them into bed, to the extent that jurisdictions actually passed laws stating that if either party to a marriage believed it to be legal at the time, it was legal, and there was even a movie starring Lillian Gish with the UL as it’s basis (Way Down East, and it’s actually a pretty good movie, in spite of some uncredited theft from Tess of the D’Urbervilles).
@RivkahChaya, did you mean to attribute that quote to me? Because I didn’t say that. I believe that was @Dinsdale.
I readily acknowledge that women’s perspective on such things is different than men’s. But no - I don’t think it unreasonable to expect women to exercise some minimal common sense in public. You seem to differ.
Sorry.