“in that it’s not typically the case that you imagine your doctor to be a medicine-dispensing robot with no human qualities”
And it is typically the case that I imagine a woman to be sex-dispensing robot with no human qualities?
You say that some, nor nearly all, of pornography crosses the line between only caring about one facet of a person (that is, at a particular time) and disavowing all other aspects of their personhood. How do you get that it crosses that line? How does showing a picture of a woman naked in a sexually suggestive pose (say, prone on a bed) automatically means that all other aspects of her personhood are being disavowed?
So, if I’m a bisexual man and I look at gay porn, I can keep thinking that men have other aspects to them besides sex and that they are not just receptacles for my sexual desires. But if I then start watching pornography involving women, then I think that women do not have other aspects to them and are only receptacles for my sexual desires, right?
You also say “Playboy/Hustler/Penthouse - expressly only about the sensibilities of men, despite involving women, thus objectifying women who are not seen as anything other than receptacles for male sexual desire”
Do you think that if a particular magazine/book/video is expressly only about the sensibilities of a gender, despite involving the other gender, it objectifies it in the sense of “Disavowing all other aspects of their personhood”?
If some media, like Harlequin romances, romantic comedies etc, are expressly about the sensibilities of women despite involving men, are men objectified? Are they reduced to receptacles of female romantic desire?
I’ve been watching porn my whole life and I have never, ever felt this way. I’m sure there is porn that exists that would be this way, but this is like the old “a feminist can’t choose to be a housewife without being called a non-feminist” complaint.
BTW if any successful women would like a househusband…
Feminism is no more monolothic than any other social or political movement (and perhaps less so than most). I am a straight, male, feminist who does enjoy pornography, sometimes with my wife but more often solo. I do try to avoid ponography driven from markets where performers are treated poorly, but really I have no sure way to know for the majority of things that might cross my path.
To me, what the Iranian women are doing does seem to be a fefinist act. It is an attempt to assert their own authority over their bodies and sexual identity. Comparing it to other instances in which women’s aked images are presented to me smacks of a consequentialist approach to ethics, which is one I have never found compelling.
Oh, for Pete’s sake! You are talking about harmless erotic trash talk that almost all people engage in during sex! By your reasoning, a woman in orgasm who bites the man’s shoulder is trying to canabalize him!
Have you ever really had hot sex? Do you not realize that comments like “hurt me with your massive meat rod!” “drown me in cum!” “use me how you like” play a specific role in sexual pleasure? Do you not realize that these are just banter that helps a lot of men and women overcome their shyness and sexual repression and that raises the excitement level of the partners?
Do you think that men are such stupid brutes that they will literally believe that the woman wants to be hurt by their “massive meat rod”? Do you think that men are stupid enough to believe that their average erect penis is a “massive meat rod” capable of hurting a woman? Do you think men are stupid enough to think their ejaculation has a sufficient liquid to drown a person?
The whole point of these comments is to create an air of wild, untamed erotic pleasure that helps both partners overcome inhibition and enjoy sex.
Do you seriously think men will then conclude that the woman literally wants to be used in any way the man likes in her normal interactions with men?
Did you know that as a gay man, I have said or been told pretty much identical things by other men in bed? Oddly, I have never lost respect for men.
Tell you what. The next time you are having hot sex, tell your partner “Oh baby, I want to express my erotic desire for you in a manner that does not objectify you, demean you, or denigrate your entire gender.” and see how much that turns on your partner.
I don’t need to “think” that “men” are, I KNOW men who deliberately choose pornography that objectifies women and portrays literally hurting them with otherwise-normal hetero penetrative sex as a good thing. There are entire popular genres of porn and porn sites dedicated to abnormally large penises. There are entire popular genres of porn and porn sites dedicated to apparently reluctant apparently barely legal actresses. Some of the biggest, most successful porn producers use these models exclusively. Hell, the popular thing lately has been anal sex sufficiently rough that the anal sphincter doesn’t return to its “closed” status for some time–not to put too fine a point on it, I’ve never seen that happen under ordinary anal sex conditions. There is an actual difference between that type of portrayal and the use of similar language in non-exploitative contexts.
I know the difference between that and BDSM, too, to kill another typical strawman.
If you cannot tell the difference between the use of hyperbolic language in a consensual sex act between two actual people, and the deliberate use of said hyperbolic language in a pornographic film to evoke a scintilla of non-consensuality, then I don’t think you even WANT to understand this discussion.
It’s not about the specifics of the literal words of the message, it’s about the context and subtext.
(incidentally, I guarantee if I say that exact thing to my wife, she’ll take it exactly as intended and jump my bones anyway–because it’s about subtext.)
You’ve got a fairly uncommon outlook in my experience–granted, there’s not that many guys who I can/will talk about specifics of porn preferences with, but most of them can point to mainstream porn that’s just a bit too iffy for their personal comfort.
I’ve been watching porn my whole life, too, and there’s a distinct difference between “Hustler” and “Abby Winters”, to give two examples. The latter is generally acceptable to feminists, the former is generally not.
Could be, I guess… but it seems more of a distinction without a difference. Even porn connoisseurs will accept that their favorite actresses probably have opinions on all sorts of subjects, they just don’t give a damn. By the same token, I’m sure my doctor could go on at length about his favorite movies, TV shows and culinary bits and pieces. But I honestly don’t give a damn.
(Speaking of which, I manged to lose your recipe for pierogies due to an external hard drive failure. If you could possibly PM it to me, I will not objectify you, scout’s honor )
Having dated a good bit during my time, all in all, I can speak to the fact that some women really, really, really dig that sorta stuff. While it’s safe to assume, I think, that <100% of porn starlets who engage in it really love it, again I think it’s overstepping bounds to tell an adult what work they can or cannot voluntarily engage in for compensation.
I watch porn to be titillated, and sure, there’s plenty of porn that fails in that capacity for me. But this seems a different standard than one which would qualify objectification of women. If I had to choose an industry which was based on the objectification of women, it would be the mainstream film industry, or advertising, not porn. Porn would be pretty low on the list.
I wonder how much of this is a cultural/community difference, realistically. I remember a thread several years back wherein the OP mentioned a guy who casually remarked “I’d rape her” of a passerby. With the caveat that I don’t think many of them would literally act on it, in some of the circles I have to interact with I’ve heard similar sentiments *voiced *from as many as 25% or so of the males–that female sexuality is something that exists for men to take and take advantage of, and that’s what women are useful for.
Among my actual friends, I see a lot more reactions as in this thread–the idea is so foreign that they have trouble comprehending that anyone would think that way.
You got it.
Agreed, having dated some BDSM ladies myself. In the right context, there’s nothing wrong with any of those statements–but I see them come up in an vanilla/not-expressly-BDSM porn context, with the woman making pained facial expressions.
No, the* result *of feminism is that women are free to make their own choices, but actual feminism is thinking about how your choices affect womankind and the future ability for women to make their own choices.
Ah, but Sarah didn’t say freedom, she said feminism. There is a certain brand of feminism which is not particularly concerned with freedom, in the same way that marxists or anarchists will go on about freedom while also wanting to deny workers the possibility of entering into an employment contract and other consensual arrangements.
It’s no wonder that one of the most prominent anti-porn feminists, Catharine MacKinnon, is also a marxist.
See, I don’t think we’re at the point where we can do that, unfortunately.
And, you know, I think it’s great that women can make their own choices, god knows I’ve benefited from the freedom we’ve achieved so far. But, I don’t agree with the idea that every choice a woman makes is automatically a feminist one by virtue of the fact that a woman is making it.
Oh, I think lots of people believe that. I mean, really, isn’t that what Little Nemo is saying? If feminism is about making your own choices, then the fact that you’re making choices is inherently feminist, no matter what they are.
I’ve thought tons about this lately because I got laid off from work and was trying to decide if I would become a stay-at-home mom. You hear all the time now that it’s all about women making the choice that’s best for them, but when women choose to stay home, is that a feminist choice? Is it ultimately making it easier or harder for other women to make the choice THEY want to make. Anyone can choose to stay home, but are we making it harder for women who want careers to do that if they choose? I think we are, and while everyone has to make their own decision, I don’t think deciding to stay at home is feminist.
I don’t particularly have a problem with people deciding what’s best for them is more important than what’s best for womankind, but I think it’s a poor definition of feminism.
And maybe we never will be, but at this point in the game, anyone who thinks that all women are demeaned by one stripper but every man should be judged on his own merit is not someone who we could get on our team if we just do a little better. Fuck them, they’re to be pointed and laughed at and denied sex, not courted.
Why should it be? It’s fine to make choices that benefit you personally.
Ha ha, I don’t deny that. But I do have concern about the things that affect how we are likely to be perceived in the workplace. Like I said in my last post, do our choices hurt the chances of other women to get ahead? You know, sometimes we have to worry about those people, cause they might be assholes, but we don’t always hold the power we’d like in every situation.
Sure it is, but I think it’s also important to consider the wider effects of the choices we make.
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