Women push for public breastfeeding policy at Starbucks, stage "nurse-in"

The BBQ Pit
261

I can give a firsthand account of bottles/pacifiers in hospitals. I had an emergency c-section. While I was in recovery, they gave my son a bottle of water because he was crying. :rolleyes: They also gave us pacifiers to take home with us (although they didn’t ever try to give him one).
I also had two doctors tell me I had to supplement with formula because he was slightly jaundiced and needed to get his excretion system working more.
When all of this caused us to have problems breastfeeding (he latched on fine but screamed bloody murder when it took more than a millisecond to get the goods, to the point where he wouldn’t even get near my breasts), I called the hospital to find a lactation consultant. They said they didn’t know of one but gave me a number to the breastfeeding teacher at the hospital. I called her (several times) and she never returned my calls. I called the local LeLeche League (their number was in the paper) and never received a return call.
I ended up pumping for about two months and feeding my son breastmilk from a bottle and supplementing with formula.

So, yeah, everyone I met talks a good game about “breast is best” and there is quite a lot of pressure for a woman to breastfeed, but minimal support. I feel like the message is you’re a bad mother and an inadequate woman if you don’t breastfeed, but don’t inconvenience or offend anyone with your gross bodily functions. Oh, and you’re on your own if it doesn’t all just magically happen for you and your baby.

262

I think breastfeeding should be encouraged (and not in a sick way), just my humble (nonhuman as Otto pointed out) O

263

Same here, I didn’t even have a good supply when “the real thing” was attached to my breast :smiley:

On a bright note though, I never had to worry about ruining shirts, and weaning was a breeze.

264

Officially, breastfeeding is encouraged. Everybody talks it up. Even the cans of formula say “breast is best”. But the reality is, there’s a learning curve for both mother and child…I mean, kids are born knowing they want to suckle (with a few exceptions), but quite often their technique needs help. Plus, if mom is new at it, and especially if she’s recovering from cesarean surgery or a traumatic vaginal delivery…geez, it can be tough.

I know with #4, even though I knew what I was doing, I still wound up with injured nipples by day 2 and a crack at the base of one by day 4. It took 35 days to heal that crack, and let me tell you that the IBCLC ‘board certified lactation consultants’ were less help to me than the ladies at the usenet group who had been there and done that…personally. There were feedings (many many) that took every bit of courage I had to face the Gaping Maw, knowing how bad latch-on would hurt. BUT I had this advantage: I knew I could do it. I had done it before. I knew what a good latch looked and felt like, I knew how to tell when baby was transferring milk properly, and I knew when there was a problem requiring actual medical attention (mastitis, etc - which I also got on day 4). Most of all, I knew that the pain was transitory, and that I could survive it, and that it would (eventually) get better. But I had a lot of advantages there, not to mention a very supportive, sympathetic husband. And I wanted it very badly. That factors in also.

But let me tell you what ‘support’ is not: It’s not: “Breast is best, but your baby is too big/too small/not in the 90th percentile/only gaining 1/2 oz a day/not sleeping through the night at 6 weeks, so supplement with formula”.

It is not “Gee, honey, whatever you want, that’s great by me.” Because at 4 in the morning, when you’re so tired you can’t see straight and you can’t get the blinking baby to latch on and she’s screaming and you’re crying and your husband is snarling at having been woken up again…that bottle of ready-to-feed formula the hospital sent home with you, or your mom brought over ‘just in case’…looks pretty good.

For *some * babies, and *some * moms, all it takes is just one bottle. One bottle to make the baby unwilling to work for his supper at the breast. One bottle to send mom’s supply (which responds to demand) into a downward spiral.

Support, true support, is multifaceted: it’s real people who will call back and just listen, and encourage, and go in person and look at a baby’s latch and help correct it. It’s advice about herbs and foods that help increase the milk supply, and maybe the suggestion of a sling to carry baby so mom can nurse hands-free for a little while. It’s reassurance that yes, it’s within the range of normal for a 4 months old to suddenly refuse the breast, and here’s what you can try to get them to nurse; that it’s normal for babies to chomp sometimes, and here are ways to teach them not to. It’s fathers and partners who will get up in the middle of the night and bring the nursing mom a glass of water and a snack, who tell her what a good job she’s doing, and who do not start bullying her to wean at some preconceived time when neither mom nor baby are ready. It’s helping a mom know when there really is a need to supplement, because that happens too. It’s even smiling at the woman who’s nursing in public, and giving her a thumbs-up for her courage.

Now, my firstborn got sent to my room with a pacifier shoved in her mouth, which she had been given to - I suspect - shut her up, when they were trying to “let me sleep” even though I’d asked them to bring her to me when she got hungry. (My twins went to NICU and their story is different. You can bet my youngest never left my hospital room, I wasn’t letting her out of my sight.) Since I know that my firstborn’s latch got bad if she had a pacifier very often, I wonder now if our initial experience would have been better if she had not been given that pacifier, which I told them not to give her. I don’t know. I have had those horror nights with the 3 week old baby screaming and all that…and thrush on top of it…and the idiot doctor giving me bad advice. But I was lucky: my perseverence was able to pay off. Many women do not succeed despite the same level of perseverence. And some are persuaded not to persevere, even though they say they want to, by well-meaning friends/family/medical personnel.

And of course, some women never want to breastfeed, or try it and find it too much a challenge, and to those I say: please just say so. Please don’t make the excuses: Oh, my breasts were too big/too small, my nipples were the wrong shape, my milk didn’t come in by day 2 so I just switched to formula, I have to go back to work in 8 weeks, I couldn’t survive without my sleep…these are excuses, but other women hear them and believe them, and think they’re truths. And these “truths” undermine women who want to do it, and want to succeed. If you want to feed formula? Do. It’s an adequate source of nutrition for most babies. But realise the impact of your words. Hell, it’s like telling pregnant women how horrible labor will be. It does them no favors, and sets them up for fear and negative expectations.

I had difficult, challenging initial breastfeeding experiences which, with effort and patience and perseverence I was able to overcome. I went on to have very satisfactory nursing experiences, and am still very pleased to be feeding my 12 month old daughter. I will feed her until she chooses to wean. I think most women can have this story, or even a better story…with adequate support. Our culture doesn’t generally provide that, but that’s something many of us are working on…more subtly than the OP’s woman with her nurse-in.

265

But Chotii, those “excuses” are truths for those women - they aren’t “excuses” at all, they are reasons. And, when you are a bottlefeeding mom, they turn out to be supportive reasons to bottlefeed. You know you aren’t the only person who is out there who decided that formula would be better after struggling with lack of sleep and post natal depression, a late milk engourgment, a baby who wouldn’t latch, a less than fully supportive spouse or a horrible case of mastitis. You become glad to hear stories of people who decided to bottlefed and had happy, healthy, normally adjusted children (because, of course, formula is evil and you have become convinced that you are a horrible mom because you’ve been seduced by formula).

Thank Og that babies do fine on formula (really, sincerely, I didn’t have a choice with my son) and that it is available as a choice for women who want it. Maybe that makes it too seductive - but if its true babies do fine on formula, what is the problem - its a mom’s decision what to feed her kid and her rationale is hers - just as it is her decision to breastfeed at four for whatever reason she chooses.

266

Most babies do fine. Of course that’s true. Now, it’s also true that just one bottle can indeed have far-reaching, negative medical effects on a baby and parents have a right (and in my opinion a responsibility) to know about this before they make their sometimes-casual and sometimes very very necessary, choice.

Do I say this to make women feel guilty? Hell no. Every woman makes the choices she has to make. But they’ve still got to know. That way, if they determine their circumstances make such choices desirable, they can keep their eyes open for possible problems arising from that choice.

There’s a difference between feeling regret (“I wanted to, I tried, I did my best, but I couldn’t make it work”) and guilt (“I made a choice without putting effort into other available but more difficult choices, and my child suffered medical problems because of it.”) I think it would be a damned shame if some inexperienced new mother, taking her friend’s or mother’s advice about how easy formula is, and how it’s not worth it to persevere through difficulties…switched to formula and her child suffered for it.

Fortunately, humans are amazingly resilient. And yes, formula certainly does provide adequate nutrition for most children. So yes…most of the time, parents can choose it, and everybody will be just fine.

267

My son latched right away, it was as if he was SO in tune he was just there. That was never a problem. It was pretty obvious from the fact that I never truly engorged or leaked that there just wasn’t a real good supply. Hed feed several times a day, but about the third or fourth time there just wasn’t enough there yet. It was obvious from both the lack of engorgement and his anger when nothing was there. He had NO problems whatsoever switching from bottle to breast and back, and made it quite clear he preferred breast, but a bottle would do in a pinch.

you know, this is pretty presumptuous and insulting, though I’m sure you don’t mean it to be. There are other reasons than “some women just don’t want to” that cause a woman not to be able to breast feed. I wanted to very much with my daughter, and tried for 4 days, she latched just fine, I had the help of several nurses (that was back when they kept us in the hospital for 4 or more days after birth), there just was nothing there. Nothing. no engorgement, no milk, it just never came in. The same thing had happened to my mom when she was a young mother. So that a woman says that she wasn’t able to doesn’t mean that she really didn’t want to and was just making excuses.

It hurt a great deal to not be able to produce when my daughter was a baby, and I’m sure a lot of women who tried and failed feel bad enough about that without being accused of “making excuses” for it. For me, and for many women it’s NOT for lack of trying, nor was it them “making excuses”.

268

Or, once again "what Dangerosa said. Again, I have two kids. One who is knocking at the door of 25, and one who is around the corner from 14.

The oldest was bottle fed and was 95 percentile for height, walked at 10 months, potty trained at a year, and was tested as gifted in 5th grade. She’s also gorgeous and works as a cosmotologist and part time as a model (I have NO idea where she got that, if she didn’t have my dimples I’d swear it was possible they switched the babies:D).

The 14 year old was breast fed, was 95 percentile for height, walked at 10 and a half months, potty trained at two years, and was also tested as gifted in 5th grade. He’s cute as a button, and while he was a quiet odd little baby, he’s very quick on the draw nowadays and argues so well, we think he’s probably going to be a lawyer.

Yes, breastfeeding is great, it’s an awesome (in the original sense of the word), incredible bonding experience. But it’s not the Holy Grail of motherhood, not doing it isn’t a sign of “not trying hard enough”, and a lot of pretty fantastic kids come from bottlefed homes too.

269

Of COURSE there are reasons. Some women have anaplastic breasts, some have had breast reduction surgery, some have pieces of retained placenta that prevents the milk from coming in, some must take medications that are absolutely proscribed during breastfeeding…and of course there are less obvious reasons. I know there are reasons. I have been careful to say so. I know there are women who sustain nipple injury so devastatingly painful that to continue is more than they can bear. And there are certainly women who require unbroken or minimally-broken sleep to be able to function and remain healthy. I’m not sure where anybody got the idea that I think otherwise. I know about these things. Added together, they comprise a significant percentage of mothers.

But I would not say ‘some women make excuses rather than say the truth, which is that they just don’t want to’, unless I had observed such situations first-hand - when in fact everything was going fine: baby was latching and nursing and taking plenty of milk, there is no pain or infection or any other problem…but mom just decided it was more convenient to give formula. It happens. And when it happens, I wish such moms would say, “I find it more convenient for myself to give formula” rather than pass on misinformation about breastfeeding. That is what I protest.

You know, there’s a reason I don’t care for the LLL propaganda. They make it sound like breastfeeding is easy, or ought to be easy, from day 1; that every mother ought to feel this glowing delight when her baby nurses, etc. It’s not true. Sometimes it’s a real struggle, and each woman must decide for herself whether the struggle is worth her energy - what her breaking-point is. I can’t determine that for anyone but myself. But this is why I make a point of telling people who ask, ‘yes, we had difficulties in the beginning, BUT with support, we overcame them, and continued on happily afterward’. I think it gives people a more realistic concept of what they may face, with hope (not guarantee) that they may succeed.

And I always, always tell people, “The first rule is, feed the baby.” And, “for most babies, formula is an adequate source of balanced nutrition.” Because it’s true. What I cannot say is “There is no difference, they’re equal choices” because that’s not true. What is true beyond any question is that supplementary formula is a heck of a lot better than a baby getting an inadequate amount of breastmilk, and it’s a no-brainer when there’s no breastmilk to be had: if baby does not receive breastmilk, he MUST receive a commercial formula in sufficient quantity, mixed accurately with clean, potable water. Homemade formulas are inferior, inadequate, and carry serious risks.

(Now someone who went to great lengths to mix her own homemade formula will start telling me I’m making her feel guilty. Just wait.)

270

Okay, yes, that makes sense then, sorry LLL flashback I guess :smiley:

I guess you could count me in as one who “perservered”. Even though I was unable with my daughter, I tried again 12 years later and succeeded.

271

After reading what you said before and what you just said… it’s clear now what you meant but the part above makes it seem like these aren’t good reasons. At least the breasts too big, nipples wrong shape and going back to work and needing sleep thing. Those can be very good reasons and as a successful breastfeeder saying it’s ‘an excuse’ appears on the surface to be criticizing the fact that that’s why it wouldn’t work for them.

With the following explanation it makes more sense, and I’d certainly hope women tell others honestly why they did what they did.

I think it simply falls out as to the differences between breastfeeding and bottle feeding moms. A lot of the breastfeeding nazi’s see any reason at all for not feeding your child directly from the nectar of your body, no matter how valid, as an ‘excuse’. Nipples wrong shape can be a huge obstacle to breastfeeding. I know, because between my flat nipples and his refusing to latch… it didn’t work. And by the end giving formula was for my convenience, and for my sanity. By the time many women have explained, yet again, as to why they don’t breastfeed it can seem like they are giving an excuse, simply because they’ve said it so many times it becomes rote and defensive.

272

How is it that you’re even hearing what other women’s reasons/“excuses” are? I find it odd that women feel it necessary to say anything to you, let alone highly personal details like “Oh, my breasts were too big/too small, my nipples were the wrong shape, my milk didn’t come in by day 2 so I just switched to formula, I have to go back to work in 8 weeks, I couldn’t survive without my sleep.” Do you ask women to justify their choices to you? People don’t usually get defensive unless someone is calling on them to defend themselves.

273

Of course not. A very common experience is for a woman to be sitting, minding her own business, breastfeeding in public, and another mother nearby notices and starts up a conversation: “Oh, it’s so nice you can do that, I tried it and my milk dried up at six weeks for no reason” <or insert other explanation here, frequently indicative of poor support and misinformation>. Perhaps these women feel obligated to explain, but it wasn’t usually because somebody stomped up to them while they were bottlefeeding and said “WHY AREN’T YOU BREASTFEEDING THAT CHILD?”

274

Chotii’s right, woman do tell you incredibly personal reasons why they didn’t breastfeed. But why? - perhaps because the breastfeeding culture is so pervasive (yep, pervasive) that a mom feels she needs to justify not breastfeeding. After all not breastfeeding puts your child at increased health risks, lowers their IQ, interferes with bonding, etc., etc. With all that going for breastfeeding, not doing it begins to feel like some sort of child abuse.

By the way, when you are a bottle feeding mom, you have people come up to your out of the blue and tell you about all the risks you are putting your child through by giving them a bottle. Trust me, its very helpful :rolleyes: I never really understood why someone would go out of their way to explain to me - a white woman bottlefeeding a Korean kid - why my son was at an increased risk of obesity and illness (my favorite is the increased risk of a rare but almost always fatal form of childhood leukemia - someone telling me as a new mom that I was practically killing their kid is one of the most awkward and angriest moments of my life) because I wasn’t breastfeeding him - and yet, several people did over six months. Perhaps they assumed my husband was Asian.

275

Breastfeeding is a good idea, and like many ideas, it needs to be promoted and supported. More mothers should do it, more hospitals should promote it, more people/employers/insurers in society should make it easier and less hassle. But I don’t think the “culture” is pervasive or powerful. If it was, why would someone in starbucks give a second look? Or more persuasively, look at the numbers. Check formula sales. See the small number of women who breastfeed for as long as is recommended.

What is true, however, is that feeding is a very emotional issue, and people get passionate and/or defensive about it.

Some women who are ardently pro-breastfeeding get so wrapped up in being recognized for their great mothering that they distort the message, approach strangers to chastise them, make specious arguments exaggerating the benefits of breastfeeding, etc. And some women who choose not to breastfeed feel so guilty about it they get defensive, give TMI when explaining their decision, try to debunk what everyone knows is good research, and freak out about “breastfeeing nazis.”

I don’t think either type of woman represents reality. They’re just overreacting because feeding is an issue so close to the heart. I wish we had a climate where good information could be accepted by more people, and where women can make informed choices they don’t have to feel attacked for or guilty about, and where we aren’t starting pit threads about a one of the cleanest, natural, mammalian bodily functions out there.

276

FWIW, I have personally heard LLL leaders tell women that they have given their children something wonderful by breastfeeding x amount of time (6 weeks, or whatever), and if the relationship is not working, and the attempted fixes are not working, they shouldn’t feel bad about it.

On the other hand, lots of women encounter challenges or problems or have concerns that might seem to mean they can’t breastfeed, but when someone with a good level of knowledge asks them the right questions and assesses the situation, it turns out breastfeeding is possible.

For instance, I frequent a breastfeeding board, and every week there is a new woman who is terribly worried she isn’t making enough milk, because she doesn’t get a lot when she pumps (pumping is no indication of what the baby gets). This can often lead to supplementing, which can cause actual supply problems. So if they get good advice, they continue breastfeeding, but if they get no advice or bad advice, they may stop because they “didn’t have enough milk.”

Another example - my MIL was told that because her kids were gassy (all kids are gassy) they were allergic to her breastmilk, and to give them formula (which is known to be more allergenic than breastmilk). From her point of view at the time, she gave breastfeeding her best shot, and “couldn’t” do it. From my point of view, she had the right intentions, but got lousy advice and no support, and missed out on a great thing.

So, while I totally agree that approaching someone who is bottle feeding and telling them they are hurting their baby, or trying to make the decision for a mother about what she can stand and what she can’t, is really atrocious behavior, I do understand why folks at LLL might probe the situation and encourage a mom to keep breastfeeding, and perhaps come off as being pushy. (I’m assuming said mother voluntarily came to a LLL meeting, of course.) That’s not to say that *some * LLL people are complete fanatics and jerks about it, too.

277

People like this need to be dealt with directly. A simple “Yea, I just couldn’t bring myself to drown the little bastard when he was born, so I’m shooting for leukemia” should do the trick, perhaps followed by “I’m hoping he takes up smoking at age 3”.

278

OK, I’m willing to cut slack in cases like that, having worked at Wal-Mart and being well aware of the fact that a lot of lower-paying employers seem to go out of their way to make life difficult for people who have responsibilities outside the workplace, like, oh, say, children to raise, and it would be even more difficult for a nursing mother to even have a clean, sanitary place to pump, and time to do it, if she was able to do it.

On the let-down issue- would maybe a tape of a crying, hungry baby help? From what I’ve read in this thread, it seems to be a good stimulator.

I think what bothers me the most is that bottle feeding is the default mode, and breast feeding is simply considered an option that some mothers might choose. I think that we, as a culture, are royally screwed up if this is the standard mode of thinking.

God and nature intended breastfeeding to be the default mode, and formula feeding should be an option that should only be considered if a woman’s life circumstances make breastfeeding unduly difficult.

279

You’re willing to cut slack? :eek:

“Unduly”… Who gets to decide whats “duly” and what’s “unduly”? :eek:

280

Well. Obviously the woman herself. However I don’t think I can be faulted for looking at decisions people make, if I know the details, and judging them against my own concepts of what is right and wrong. I cannot (and must not) enforce my concepts on their lives, but I certainly can, and do, judge them. There are women I have seen make feeding decisions that were entirely selfish, and their babies did suffer for it. How can I be faulted for labeling their choice selfish and bad, in the privacy of my own mind?