Thank you.
You have obviously never been an attractive young women. The odds that a stranger will rape you because you nodded back are probably low. But the odds that a stranger will hassle you, follow you, catcall, or persistently insist on your attention in some other unpleasant way are quite high. Maybe 30%+ where I learned to ignore strange men in the street.
This comment really gave me pause. I think it speaks to how varied the motives are behind sexual assault. Maybe most rapists don’t leave the house with a plan, but plenty of them do. Gropers definitely know that strangers don’t welcome being groped on a crowded bus. For some, the imposing, is part of the appeal (and my gut says it’s probably most).
One of the reasons this conversation in our society is so complicated is that motive and action are so intertwined. Writ large, the answer is in stopping the action – DON’T DO THAT THING, the thing being raping or groping or copping a feel. When we look at how to change the culture, it can be useful to figure out more about the motive – is it that the perpetrator doesn’t know his action is sexual assault? That the perpetrator falsely believed that the victim was inviting the action? That the perpetrator knows, but doesn’t care because his personal risk assessment determined that there’s little chance he will be held accountable for his actions? I would believe there are multiple motives, or at least multiple ways that perpetrators end up committing sexual assaults. Having a deeper understanding of this could result in better, more targeted ways to prevent future perpetrators.
But the endgame, let’s not lose sight of this, is to greatly reduce the incidents of sexual assault, and to vastly improve the response to and support for the victims of sexual assault. Some of the “it’s simple, don’t rape people” reactions come from a very real frustration that too much of the conversation is still about delicately pondering why perpetrators commit assault (“maybe he got mixed signals,” “maybe he was frustrated,” etc).
My answer, if a man who is one of the majority of men who doesn’t sexually assault people asks me what he can do, my answer is along the lines of
- Try really hard to be cool with being uncomfortable – challenge, out loud, in public, when you hear other people say gross things that imply that maybe they will do gross things.
- Don’t assume that ‘oh, it’s just talk, he’s kidding, he’s drunk.’ Even if it makes things awkward, and people are like ‘man, why can’t you take a joke?’ Be willing to be the guy who can’t take a joke.
- Be really honest with yourself and check your reactions to news stories and especially stories from your friends, and admit (to yourself is fine, or talk about it with a close, trusted friend, or you know, post on the SDMB) if things like ‘well, it could have been a miscommunication’ or ‘it’s he said/she said, so I guess we’ll never know’ or ‘that bus was really crowded, maybe he didn’t realize he was rubbing her butt’ ever cross your mind, and why this might be.
- When a woman, especially a woman who is your friend or coworker and someone who you would otherwise think is rational and honest says that she experienced something that made her uncomfortable, take what she is telling you at face value.
- Try, try, try and then try some more to separate, in your mind and emotions, the issue of intentional false reporting. It does happen. It is a terrible thing. It is a DIFFERENT terrible thing. Sometimes people fake their own death, but it would be bizarre if someone heard about a person dying and their first thought was ‘well, people DO fake their own deaths you know.’ In both scenarios, it is notable because it is so rare.
- If you are ever wondering about your own behavior, the “would you say/do that to a dude?” is a basic, but reasonable starter technique. Would you briefly nod at another dude as you enter an elevator? Sure, seems legit. Would you tell a dude in the elevator that he has pretty eyes?
- If you are a parent, explicitly discuss all of the above with your kids, and tell them what your expectations are. Model this behavior so that your kids see that you are willing to be the person who speaks up.
Not to diminish the horror that I know it must be to be seen as a steak by a huge portion of the population that is always hungry, but I didn’t consider random bump ups on a bus or boob-brushes that could be accidental but probably weren’t, come on’s and unwanted invitations, etc. among the types of sexual assault I was discussing when I said that. Those things are real and serious problems too but the statement about having a suspicion about any unknown male was with regard to rape.
Part of the problem here is that the previous thread really got screwed up from the very start. It was started in the Pit of all places, so it initially had absolutely zero hope of being a serious, honest discussion of what was asked for in the title: “Women: share your…”
It got moved out of the Pit the next day but the OP mentioned (either in that thread, or in another thread about it) that men were invited to post - again, despite the title - because she was hoping to discuss a) how many women get groped and also b) how that behavior is not considered normal or acceptable for most men, and they don’t consider it “locker room talk” to discuss strategies on groping women. It was a thread started about the Donald Trump style assault, inspired by comments that it was just locker room talk, but by its very nature and its title it invited stories from survivors of all forms of sexual assault.
After some posters started sharing their very personal and serious struggles as survivors of rape, others followed the thread over from the Pit where it had already become a train wreck, and yet others posted on the original stated (but not evident) theme that such behavior isn’t normal for most men.
Those initial men who posted nothing more than things like “this isn’t normal for most men” were met by angry and very emotional victims demanding that they know: “NOT ALL MEN! would you please shut up about it already!?” and saying that the only reason they are even posting is out of some stupid male insecurity that they just can’t leave a conversation about sexual assault alone without needing reassurance that not all men are guilty, and that’s why they will never post on the SDMB again!!!
So we wound up with a serious thread for victims to share experiences that was started in the Pit, the theme was stated by the OP to be something other than what was written in the OP, which both were something other than the title, and people were posting from all angles because of the ambiguity.
In the context of all that while women were telling men “we get it already you insecure idiots not all men” I decided to post that Nawth’s post “not all men (yet!)” was ironic and unhelpful. That led to more back and forth and drive by commentary and so this thread was born.
I have definitely never been an attractive young woman. But I agree with your point. The odds of having unwanted advances are quite high and I can see how you’d get really tired of it but hassling, catcalling, or persistently being a nuisance aren’t the same thing as grabbing you physically which is where the line of assault is drawn.
Okay, we can agree it’s where the line of assault is drawn legally … but when you’ve got a critical mass of people being hassled and catcalled, it describes a culture in which sexual assault is thriving. That is the entire problem with accepting that it’s okay for men to say unpleasant, demeaning and inappropriate things to and about women, as if somehow this minority of men simply can’t help themselves and everyone else should shrug and get over it.
No, that is not where the law draws the line on assault. The parameters of assault do not require a physical component.
I’m glad you acknowledge that you live in a comfortable place compared to most women, CrazyHorse. It’s more comfortable than you imagine.
You rarely fear an unwanted person attempting to contact you.
You are confident that should you ever have to call authorities they will come quickly and believe what you tell them.
You know that it is unlikely that a crime you report will be used by people you know and have influence in your life as a mark of your character or a reason to analyze an action you take in the future.
Do you acknowledge these things?
Oh I agree completely. The cultural normalization of this kind of behavior indicates a very big problem in our society. It was just in answer to the question about me saying: “The chances of any one random stranger that nods in passing being a sexual predator are so low as to be practically nil.” was in reference to physical sexual predators.
I’m an American living in Mexico with Trump a candidate for president! In other areas not that far from where I live narco-traffickers leave decapitated corpses in the streets and gangs engage in extortion and kidnapping routinely. I’m in one of the most remote areas of the state, in the jungle, with jaguars and venomous snakes as daily visitors. My work in some cases results in people being put in prison or having their businesses shut down. Everyone has their reasons to be concerned for their own safety.
No. I’m positive they won’t come quickly and whether or not they believe what I tell them depends on the situation but I wouldn’t say that I’m at all confident they would in general.
To some extent, sure.
But I’ve lost track of exactly what your point is. If reporting a crime will cause the people you know to judge you or your character I agree that totally sucks. What does it have to do with annoying come-on’s by persistent idiots with no manners not being physical assaults? That is what I posted about.
And yes, behavior in a way that makes you feel you are being physically threatened is also an assault, you’re right. But that still does have a physical element. That means like raising a fist in the air and acting like you’re going to hit someone, not just being an annoying douchebag asking you out in an inappropriate way and place.
If I were to use anecdotal experience as related by my friends and partners as the basis for statistics, I’d come up with:
• roughly 1 in 2 women has been raped
• approximately 80% of all women have been sexually harassed in ways that included threats, intimidation, and unwanted touching
• approximately 20% of women were sexually abused as children, by male famiy members
•somewhere around 15% of women have been blatantly and overtly and explicitly discriminated against in the workplace, specifically for being female — that is, they were told to their face flat-out that they weren’t going to get the promotion or weren’t going to ever get paid as much as a man would have, because they were women, with no pretense of any other factor being involved.
This is really wrong and bothersome. I wish I had a better instinct for doing something useful about it aside from saying “this is really wrong and bothersome” and monitoring my own behavior so as not to become part of the problem without realizing it or something.
…you would be incorrect. Are you reading the people that are replying to you? Plenty of people have disagreed with you, both in this thread, and the other one. But you don’t seem to be listening to what everybody is telling you.
Spice Weasel speaks from the perspective of a survivor. You speak from the perspective of a guy who got angry when a woman posted something you disagreed with on the internet. Spice Weasel talks about one specific thing. You are all over the place. Spice Weasel hasn’t diminished the contributions of the people in the other thread: in this thread you have arbitrarily drawn a line on what should be and what shouldn’t be considered sexual assault.
You might think you are saying the same thing: but you are not. You are literally saying different things. Are you incapable of articulating your point with your own words? Because that would at least be understandable.
Well that was kind of the point, wasn’t it? The thread was an invitation to women to share their stories of having your crotch grabbed (when you didn’t want it). From the OP in the other thread:
“I’m asking women to post incidents where a male reached out and touched your genital area, over your clothes or under them, when you did not invite him to, and when you did not want him to. Can I make that any clearer?”
“I’m sure men get sexually groped and grabbed, too, but the theme of THIS thread is the SENSE OF ENTITLEMENT that some men feel to touch, handle, and even invade women’s and little girls’ bodies, including strangers’ bodies, let alone those of dependent family members, students, employees.”
It was quite clear what the purpose and intent of that thread was. It was to hear stories from women. Now: I know you probably saw this:
“I’m glad to hear from men on this thread.”
On the first page. Did you actually think the intent of that statement was to take the thread away from “telling and listening to stories from women” to a thread where you were lecturing women that “the world is a lot safer than your imagination?”
People were taking the thread off topic. In response, people got a bit hostile in response. Why does that surprise you?
Because this isn’t exactly new behaviour. This same pattern of behaviour happens all over everywhere.
“Women are asked to share their experiences. Men jump in to tell them “they are doing it wrong.” Women fight back. Women get accused of being “hostile” and all they need to do to fix things is to stop alienating men. Stopping alienating men translates to “shutting up.” So they shut up. Conversation moves to PM. Men think problem is solved.”
And its happened again. Any traction that other thread might have had is gone.
I’m a photographer. This just finished playing out (yet again) on a model/photographer messageboard I’m on. The admins of the board asked for “Unprofessional Things Photographers Say to Models”. The most unprofessional thing I was was (warning NSFW) “I don’t know why you won’t pose spread leg… looks more like cock and balls than pussy anyways.”
It only took four posts before the men jumped in to ruin the thread. And their arguments were almost indistinguishable from yours.
With all due respect: what a load of nonsense. How many frank and open discussions have their been on the dope asking for women to share their experiences have their been over the last fifteen years or so? Not enough to make an impact.
And the example of hostility that set you off was this sentence “consider your demand to be ignored”. I get more vicious than that on a Tuesday. Is that the level of hostility you are fighting against? You think that level of hostility might lead to more sexual assaults? Really? You think that comment was more hostile than this one was in response?
“To the extent that a “safe space,” appears to mean an area in which one participant can share a view or interpretation without challenge by other participants. . . yes, you’re absolutely correct: this thread, this board, and this country are not “safe spaces,” and I intend to work diligently to ensure that they never become safe spaces.”
This isn’t a “man vs woman” problem. I’m a man and no one is being hostile to me. No one told me to stop posting in the other thread. People aren’t disagreeing with you because you are a guy. They are disagreeing with the words you are saying, the manner in which you have said them, and the way you behaved.
Recognizing that much and consciously avoiding it yourself already puts you ahead of many.
Without needing to become a full time activist or vigilante it’s still possible to help by contributing to organizations who are.
But really the way to change something across a whole culture only requires small acts by individuals in their own little corners of the world. The key is spreading the same awareness to others by sharing what you know and setting an example for others.
– Howard Zinn
All of these are things you can change. They’re all choices that you’ve made. That you’re an American living in Mexico in the jungle is a result of your own actions. There’s safety in empowerment, and metal well being in living in a situation that you created. None of them is akin to being a woman raised as a woman in American culture. We didn’t choose that, and we can’t change that.
You told me that other people’s opinions shouldn’t matter, that’s what it has to do with.
Your right but it wasn’t a comparison. The statement/question I replied to was if I feel that I am in a safe and comfortable place, not how or why I got there.
I told you that IMHO you were putting too much importance on other people’s opinions instead of going with your gut feeling how to approach situations where your safety is concerned. You weren’t talking about being judged for reporting an assault.
She said: “You know that it is unlikely that a crime you report will be used by people you know and have influence in your life as a mark of your character or a reason to analyze an action you take in the future.”
Which had nothing to do with your post. She was replying to something I posted to Puzzlegal. But yes it sucks both ways, and still you shouldn’t put too much importance on other people’s opinions in either case.
People judging you for something can both suck and be irrelevant at the same time, but you’re quoting me from one context in reply to another.
The issue is not “politeness,” but accuracy.
My post – for I, as it happens, was the unnamed poster in question – did in fact explicitly invite her to consider the facts I raised. It’s not factually accurate to characterize it as a demand, and while she was certainly “fine,” to respond as she did, it was not a factually accurate statement.
I certainly did.
And I am more than happy to emphasize that view here in this thread: it is problematic to suggest that ignorance may be fought without a dynamic in which assertions are immune from challenge. So far as I am aware – and I certainly welcome moderator correction on this point – no forum on this message board is designed to forbid any questioning or challenge of claims or interpretations made by other posters. If a “safe space,” means an area in which one view can remain insulated from meaningful alternative views, then I’m reasonably confident that I’m correct: neither that thread, this thread, or this board are not “safe spaces.”
And of course as long as the First Amendment remains good law, this country is not a “safe space” either (assuming again that a “safe space,” is an area in which only one view, and not contrary views, are permitted.)
Obviously I disagree. Hostility is not synonymous with disagreement.
So why should it raise anyone’s ire?
…I wouldn’t expect any other answer from someone with such a distinguished legal brain.
Well, perception is subjective. And you can’t dictate how someone perceives your message.
Who wants to do that?
Is it problematic for women, in a thread called “Women: share your stories of having your crotch grabbed (when you didn’t want it)” for women to actually share their stories of having your crotch grabbed (when you didn’t want it)? Is it problematic that the people participating in that thread didn’t want it hijacked by people determined to talk about something else?
Well duuuh. The post you responded too said “This thread is not a safe space, this board is not a safe space and this country will not be a safe space for a very long time.” Both she and I are well aware this board is not a safe space. She told you that. Did you think I was not aware?
I would suggest that purely from the context in which Nawth Chucka made her post that your definition of “safe space” and her definition of “safe space” are not the same. It certainly isn’t how I understand the word to mean.
Of course, the first amendment. That document put together by a bunch of long dead white men. Absolutely relevant to you: but of no concern and of no relevance to me.
Of course not. Hostility can be expressed in many different ways.
Context Mr Bricker. The original post raised Crazyhorse’s ire. Yours was IMHO much more hostile: and should have come under consideration for Crazyhorse’s ire as well.
But of course, hostility is “subjective”: and I don’t actually think either posts was that hostile at all.
This was kinda my point, at least to say that it is completely wrong to say, as Crazyhorse did, that the plans and motivations of rapists and gropers are such-and-such, clearly and obviously, and then to base further thoughts and evaluations on that premise.
For a while there was a rapist in Manchester who raped women at kebab skewer point. He obviously left the house with a plan and was well aware that women were not so into the situation (hence the skewer, presumably). Most rapes are probably more situational opportunism and likely also down to unawareness of how consent works etc. (Thinking that no means yes.)
One man who groped me went to prison without understanding why or what he did wrong. He just didn’t get it. He thought he had a right to grab women by the pussy and that they probably liked it. Or he just didn’t manage to factor women having an opinion at all into his world view - it’s hard to say exactly. From Trump’s comments it’s fairly clear that he thinks grabbing women in the crotch is something he can do because of being a star: “And when you’re a star they let you do it. You can do anything.”
Motivations will vary hugely, of course. And may sometimes be impossible to ascertain.
My point in saying it was that Crazyhorse bases all sorts of ideas on knowing exactly how rape and sexual assault work and also how much you can avoid my not smiling at men. But he clearly hasn’t got the foggiest idea. And that’s annoying. I don’t want to be told how to feel and how to act by someone who has no clue of what he’s talking about.
Your point was obviously incorrect.
Again, the huge majority of sexual assaults are committed by a close family member or someone the victim knows extremely well. Another large majority of the remainder are committed by someone the victim knows in some context. That isn’t my opinion it is the simple fact of the matter.
That doesn’t mean random assaults don’t ever happen. For anyone who was the victim of a random crime of opportunity nothing in my statement in any way discounted their victimization or implied that they should or could have done something differently.
It also wasn’t related to annoying pick up attempts and cat calling or any other non-physical form of assault or harassment, and wasn’t an attempt to convince anyone how they should feel, act, smile, nod, or anything else.
This is not a rebuttal. It’s not a concession. It’s an irrelevant observation.
No, I don’t purport to. But I can certainly point out that lack of factual grounding that perception has. If I were to claim that my perception of your latest post is a carefully coded call to violence against men, you’d be well advised to not only deny it, but point out that there was absolutely no objective support for such an absurd claim. And if I were to point out that you can’t dictate how I perceive your message, I cannot bring myself to believe you’d simply offer a wry shrug and an implicit agreement that every perception is equally valid.
In other words, perception has both an objective and a subjective component. Discussions in a thread are certainly entitled to explore the subjective bases of a perception and to what extent the claimed objective perception validly rests on those objective components.
Nawth, with a post that suggests her assertions should remained unchallenged.
The short answer to your question is: it depends.
The longer answer: as a thread develops conversations, different subjects emerge. Some are rationally related to the original post or thread title; others diverge more dramatically. This is an ordinary dynamic of a message board.
It’s certainly not problematic to talk about something else when the discussion evolves, in my opinion. Of course, the reason we have moderators is to moderate; undoubtedly one would be willing to step in if a tangent that develops becomes so untenable that the moderator feels it necessary to curtail it as a hijack.
I think her comment had an aspect of recrimination to it: she said the thread was not a safe space in a way that suggested it should be, that it would be preferable if it were. My post rebutted that suggestion.
It’s certainly possible. This is why I carefully said, “If and ‘to the extent that’ when I discussed safe space definition. I explictly made room for the possibility that something else was meant by the phrase.”
If you live in the United States, then it has relevance to you as the basis of the free speech law that surrounds you and animates much of the legal framework in which you operate.
In what way do you believe it has no relevance to you? And more specifically, iin what way is it relevant to me but not to you? I am a man, to be sure, but not white or long dead.
Crazyhorse, my point was that you seemed to criticize women for thinking that random men on the street are a threat. But they are. Yes, it’s rare that they threaten rape, but it’s common for them to threaten a woman’s peace of mind as she walked down the street. So women who view men with suspicion, especially unknown men who try to make eye contact or speak to them, are generally being completely rational.
If she calls the cops when you haven’t done anything, you have a gripe. But if she glances at you suspiciously and hurries asking you have no legitimate gripe. Perhaps, instead of getting your briefs in a bunch, you should learn how to present in a less threatening way.
I should think that the number of men subjected to violence at the hands of other men is fairly large too. Yet still I don’t see any suggestion that men, even small and physically weak men should treat other men as potentially violent in day-to-day interactions, avoid eye contact in the street etc.