If #3 was always taught as the #1 rule we would not be in this situation and #s 1 and 2 would be far less necessary. Adult women know there’s a system of reporting these things, but we also know men get arrested and get bailed out and come over to kill their accusers b/c they’re mad something could go on their permanent record - they figure it may as well be murder if they’re going to jail for anything.
By cougar women, I assume you meant older women talked about wanting to have sex w/ younger men in lewd language? I can’t think why you even mentioned it, except as an excuse to slip in a pretty sneaky ‘women do it, too’ when what we’re talking about is not the fraction of assaults perpetrated by older women against younger men. I’d wager more men are attacked by family pets than are attacked by women.
Is anyone keeping score on the #notallmen posts? When women are asked to share their stories there are always guys that simply can’t stand not having their voices heard, too. Maybe they prefer when we ask their permission first? Maybe they think they can shout us down?
Maybe they’re part of the problem.
As for having outrageous and destructive thoughts/fantasies… I’ve had them. Not so much sex-revenge against a man, as shooting the occasional boss/board member. I once wrote a murder mystery story just to kill off a choir director I couldn’t stand. Contrary to what Jimmy Carter said, having the thought is not not not the same as doing the act. Fantasizing about shooting/raping someone is vastly different from actually doing it. Thoughts are not things. The thought of a piece of pie or the thought of falling from an airplane are not the same as a real piece of pie or *actually *falling from an airplane. Surely this is obvious.
I wish that I could say that I’m surprised, but I’m really not.
I don’t believe that all men (or even most) men behave this way, or even think about behaving this way…but it’s clear that there’s a not-insignificant number who do. I have a wife, a mother*, a sister, and several nieces, as well as the fact that most of my closest friends are women, and it distresses and depresses me that they all have to deal with this sort of crap from the more idiotic members of my gender.
As a (mostly) hetero male, I certainly admit that my eye is drawn to attractive women, and there are, I admit, moments in which I look longer than I should. But, my brain never goes to the “let’s cop a feel” thought.
*- my mother was stunningly beautiful when she was younger, and was an airline stewardess for three years in the early 1960s. I have to imagine that she endured a lot of suggestive comments (and possibly unwanted touches) when she was working, but it’s not a topic she’s ever brought up to me. I’m now wondering if she’s ever brought it up with my sister.
Back in the day, there was a culture that looked the other way and women were expected to just accept it. Speaking of airlines, I’m old enough to remember when Southwest was called “Hot Pants Airlines” because of the flight attendants’ outfits. Those shorts were all but an invitation for a guy to grab/touch as the women worked up and down the aisles, often with both hands full of drinks or snacks.
I think that the urge to touch a woman uninvited is one that I’ve been so strongly socialized against that I’m often not even aware of it. Like the urge to hit someone who annoys me, or to grab someone else’s food and eat it just because it looks good, or to go to the bathroom whenever and wherever the urge strikes, it’s something that never occurs to me consciously to do, because the impulse to do so gets stifled by my conditioning before it reaches the conscious level.
Good observation. It’s called being civilized IMHO. The difference between being a toddler and an adult. The problem is when you get an adult behaving like a toddler…
Yeah, it’s a small but significant fraction of men, I think. But they get around. I’ve never had my crotch grabbed, but I’ve had my inner thigh grabbed (by a stranger on a subway). And I’ve had um, awkward unwanted kisses from men who should have known better.
Oh yeah – a mentally retarded teenager grabbed my breast and fondled it, once. His father made him stop and apologize. He clearly had the mental age of a toddler (with the libido of a teen) though, and his father was there to keep him in check, so that wasn’t terribly upsetting. It was more of a “this must be really hard for him and his parents” kind of situation.
I’m glad to hear some men are saying that no, they don’t secretly harbor desires of grabbing at women who don’t want it.
I fully believe that most people find themselves, at least occasionally or maybe frequently, seeing an attractive person and thinking “wowsa, I wouldn’t mind getting some of that action…” I think that’s part of how human sexuality works. I don’t think it’s disgusting in and of itself. I know that in a lot of social situations, for both men and woman, that “I wouldn’t mind getting some of that action” is phrased in ways that might be exaggerated for effect. It’s the adding in of the element of desiring sexual contact with that other person when she (or he) would feel humiliated, annoyed, or repulsed, and the assumption that you are entitled to that sexual contact regardless, that I hope is rare.
There’s no way I would ever think of grabbing a woman, uninvited. Hell, I have a difficult enough time when I’m invited. You pretty much need to club me on the head before I get it.
I doubt it would occur to Trump that anyone might feel annoyed, humiliated, or repulsed by him. My guess is he just assumes that they want it, whether or not they give him any indication that they do.
There are no doubt legions of truck drivers who feel exactly the same way, but understanding it will lead to their arrest and other punishments keeps them from doing it (mostly). But Donny has no such fear. So he gives 'em what we all know they want.
Not unless Affy grows up to be a billionaire. One of those truck drivers, sure.
What bothers me most about threads like these is the men rushing in to say, “Most men don’t do this,” “It would never cross my mind to act this way, and none of my men friends would either.” “Maybe you were groped by mistake.” “It’s different if it’s done against a young girl.”
I’ve posted in other threads about street harassment, and gotten responses like “You must be exaggerating.” “Maybe you lived in a bad neighborhood.” And other responses like from the men here in this thread about how they and their friends would never ever… All of this minimizing the scope of the problem.
A woman made a video of herself simply walking down the street recording the harassment she received, and when she made the video public, there was all sorts of bitching about it from men about how the video was edited, and how long she was walking, and whether she was an actress or model (as if that made any difference).
Guys, we believe you. You personally don’t harass women. But there are PLENTY of men who do.
Harassment is NOT a rare thing. It happens, and it happens OFTEN. Often enough that the men who do it get away with it do it over and over. Because we women are told over and over that we are exaggerating the problem, most men aren’t like that at all, it’s not that big a deal.
This is beyond repugnant and makes me regret doing the decent thing and trying to be be fair-minded toward you. Next time I’ll just keep my mouth shut.
They do it because they get what they want far more often than they face any consequences. People’s instinct is to freeze up in the fact of confrontation. Predators know this and exploit it.
This is all so. fucking. boring. We’ve been having these conversations on the SDMB for the last 10+ years, and it’s always exactly the same.
Is there a list somewhere of the Dope’s misogynistic repeat offenders? Of the (almost always) old white men who just DON’T GET IT? I have a few nominees.
