This isn’t about you. Well, if it is, it’s about you not getting your feelings hurt if I dont return your smile when we pass on the street. Because the last guy might have groped me. And the next guy might rape me. Or murder me.
Thank you for not raping me. I guess.
Yeah, I am not sure about that. Actual writings from the era that I have read seem to suggest otherwise. When I did my thesis, (on history of sex crimes legislation in 20th century England and Wales) I was struck by just how many prosecutions there were for what we would now call sexual harassment or assault. There were also plethora of cases where women sued company’s and won damages.
I do wonder sometimes if we have taken popular media, jokes and stereotypes of that time, accepted them uncritically and looked at them with our own biases.
We see it in depictions of historical figures, the Roman Emperor Claudius’s wife Messalina was claimed by her enemies to be amazingly promiscuous, that has been used to paint her as a whoring bitch who nearly destroyed the state (by Victorians) or as an empowered female ahead of her time (modern feminist historians), yet there is considerable evidence that we have merely accepted slurs as fact and the real woman was neither.
Hell just look at our depictions of sexual mores of times past.Often play into modern biases.
My God. Is this what we’ve become?
Most of it took place on one street. And in less than “nice” neighborhoods; (meaning most minority), which meant that there was an undercurrent of racism in it, meaning that the words interpreted as being harrassing by the woman/producers were due to her perceptions of their ethnic background as opposed to the specific content alone.
There’s a lot of the men in the world.
Some cultures are obviously worse at respecting women than others but even in western society you get boys who grow into men without ever learning that respect for a variety of reasons.
Just guessing here but I assume some think it’s funny, some think it’s a compliment, some think the woman SHOULD treat it as a compliment, for some it’s a power trip and some may even think it’s a pick up line akin to foreplay.
Whatever the reason, the root cause boils down to lack of understanding and respect for Women.
Some Muslims are fundamentalist imbeciles who kill people in the name of their religion, doesn’t mean all Muslims are terrorists.
Some men grope women, some bash their partners, some rape people, doesn’t mean all men are like that.
I expect most men are horrified because it is unthinkable to the vast amount of men. Getting groped is probably so shocking/terrifying/traumatic that it looms large in the memory.
But I expect most women interact with tens of thousands of men who do not grope them. I mean, if you had to make a list of the number of men you’ve interacted with that didn’t grope you, it would probably be larger than the list who did by a degree of magnitude.
You just don’t remember them, because there is no reason to. But they outnumber the trumps by such a large degree than most men, who’d never experienced that, are shocked to hear about it.
Up until this point in the thread I’ve seen no suggestions as to how often this happens, either to maximize or minimize it. The men here who say “i never do this” seem to be saying that this is bad because they would never think of doing it.
[QUOTE=Ludovic]
The men here who say “i never do this” seem to be saying that this is bad because they would never think of doing it.
[/QUOTE]
Its bad because
i) Its a crime
ii) It is an assault on the person and dignity of another human being
I would never think of doing it cause its bad, not that its bad because I would never do it, no matter what some radical man-hating feminists might claim.
Maybe we could start a thread on the number of times the “good” men have stopped some guy from groping or harassing a women?
Oh heck I’ll start. While I have never been in an occasion where I would have the pleasure of punching some guy who had grabbed a woman I have been in a position a time or 2 when say at a bar a female I was with was getting the wrong attention and I asked the man to stop. Also I have been an escort to women when they are going to be say working late or I walk them to their cars at night.
Well, there it is, “radical man-hating feminists”. I knew that phrase would show up in no time at all.
First time - college dorm. I’ve had it happen at bars as well.
Or just maybe we are refuting Trump’s assertion that it is typical locker room talk.
Urbanredneck, I’m not sure if your first statement was intended to be sarcastic or not, but either way, if you are interested in discussing something that you acknowledge is not the topic of this thread, then by all means go start another thread. Suggesting the idea of something that belongs in another thread and then delving into it here is a fairly deliberate hijack, don’t you think?
And my last point applies to all thread participants. I realize that this kind of topic tends to get emotional for folks with lots of different perspectives in here, and it might be challenging to have a genuine discussion of those perspectives without that discussion being somewhat broader than outlined in the OP. HOWEVER, coming into the thread to specifically change the topic is going to be looked upon as threadshitting, and will be moderated as such.
**So I’m instructing all thread participants to take a deep breath and strongly consider how and if you’re contributing to the topic in the OP before making future posts here. **I appreciate everyone’s cooperation.
A word to men, if I may: Do you often greet strange men, and smile at them? Pretend women are men, if that helps. I don’t care if from now on it’s only “children first” when the ship is sinking.
What’s wrong with a smile and a “hello”? You see, many of us once smiled back and the creep took it as evidence of interest. It may have even ended in the guy getting verbally abusive, stalkerish, or worse. We don’t know you. Maybe you are a great guy, but we have no way of knowing, because that other guy also didn’t look like an asshole.
Mercifully I don’t remember anything of the seriousness some women here have described, but the cat-calling, the demands for smiles, the aggressive demands for attention, the reaching hands were a normal thing for me. Many times I feared it would escalate, and feared for my safety. And it started from before puberty, so that was a rough wake up call.
Thank goodness I am a middle-aged woman and not as attractive anymore. Now I just have to worry about my daughter, so it’s actually worse.
Ramira had every right to post what she did, even if it was “random” (which it wasn’t; it was directed at YOU based on YOUR posts; not random at all).
You had every right to respond to Ramira, but no right to expect that your post would go unchallenged for its bigotry and logical inconsistency.
I had every right to conclude, based on your posts, that you are repugnant and illogical.
This is kind of a boring discussion, but feel free to keep arguing. Given that I had the lapse in judgment to defend something you said, I probably ought to take advantage of every opportunity I’m presented with to make it absolutely clear just how thoroughly I reject everything you stand for.
Thank you for that excellent and interesting contribution to the discussion.
Thank you for that. I was about to have a case of the vapors.
Men who have never done what I stated in the thread title: we believe you. You have no need to defend yourselves. Really.
Years ago I was at a club and a stranger grabbed me from behind. It startled me and it hurt. Once I got over my shock, I pointed him out to my friends and we started following the creep around the club. He had been circling and circling the floor, but once he realized that we were watching him he got the hell out of there.
Yes it’s happened, sadly as a child and as an adult. Frotteuristic acts where it takes a few moments to realize what the scum is trying to do. I’ve even had to tell an SO to knock it off with the crotch grabs, as it wasn’t endearing, loving or magical. It was just a crotch grab to display power and make me feel uncomfortable until I realized i didn’t have to take it, didn’t have to joke and slide away, didnt’ have to apologize for not feeling in the mood.
I detest seeing men do this in public with their GF or wife. LIke I need to see you grab a handful of her groin in the grocery store. I give those guys major stink eye
Yes, I was raised to be courteous and pleasant to everyone I interact with and I try to be. The patriarchy is strong in me apparently, though it was mostly my mother who inculcated that habit in me.
Well, going by what you wrote if you act like a rude, prickly bitch then don’t be surprised of you get treated like one. If you are going to be boorish and hostile, you are going to get it back with interest. If you are going to treat everyone as a potential rapist or molester regardless of how they actually behave or act, then yeah guys will at annoyed at you. Except, the actual genital grabbers, and the actual molesters, they deserve everything and more. Not the guy who acts like a decent human being and gets trampled on for his troubles.
If we are going to play “broad brush the gender” like you do, then here’another s one; women are very bad at reading men evidently. You are not that pretty. Not everyone (or even most) who is courteous and friendly wants to sleep with you. He might (gasp) be being friendly because that’s the way he is, not because he wants to give you a good seeing to. :rolleyes:
Well I hope you daughter has a long, safe and successful life, but frankly being scared all the time sounds like a lousy way to live. Actual threats, actuals attacks on dignity (and cat calling is certainly one of those) are one thing, but what the hell is "demand for smiles: anyway? A demand you not actually be rude and boorish? Thats a fair demand for anyone of any gender.
It is. But we have no choice.
Rapists look the same as “gentlemen.” We can’t tell. And a smile, fleeting eye contact, can, will be, IS, constantly misconstrued.
It’s safer for us to not engage. Don’t get your knickers in a twist. I don’t owe you a smile. I don’t owe you anything.
Again, we’re the ones that live this every day. Don’t try to dictate how a woman should behave in her everyday interactions.
Is there an echo in here?