Women: share your stories of having your crotch grabbed (when you didn't want it)

In My Humble Opinion
121

The ONE thing we most certainly are NOT doing in this thread is playing “broad brush the gender.” How many times do I have to say it? NOT ALL MEN DO THIS. NOT ALL MEN DO THIS. NOT ALL MEN DO THIS. NOT ALL MEN DO THIS. NOT ALL MEN DO THIS.

Got it?

And it has NOTHING to do with “beauty” or with the guy wanting to fuck you. Grabbers don’t want to fuck you. They want to GRAB you. I’m guessing grabbers are not very successful with women (unless they’re rich and pseudo-powerful), so they have to grab or risk being turned down.

I don’t go around “scared all the time,” and I don’t think most women do unless they’ve actually experienced rape or other physical violence. But ALL women and girls have to be alert and on their guard. And it is most definitely a lousy way to live.

In some situations, it may be perfectly fine to return a strange guy’s hello or smile, but in other circumstances, a woman may choose not to see or acknowledge him because she doesn’t know what direction it might go.

If you’ve read the stories here, most of these grab-attacks come as a completely unexpected surprise (is there any other kind?) to the woman and her genitalia. So, no, we don’t have to be scared, but we have to be very alert, especially in crowded conditions like busses and subways, when we’re alone on the street, in parking garages, or even in the office. Did you read about my colleague, the boss’s secretary, cornered by our PR Director who pulled out her blouse and peered down her neckline.

When a woman describes her life to you, you MUST take her word for it.

And BTW, NOT ALL MEN DO THIS. (Did I mention that?)

P.S. When you bring up the part about you’re not that beautiful and not every guy wants to sleep with you, it almost sounds like you think that women who complain about unwanted male attention are “humble-bragging,” i.e., they’re being uppity and complaining about something that’s really good that they just find tiresome. Like someone who complains about not having time to spend all the money s/he makes. Is that it?

Or did some woman ignore your friendly hello and you’re still pissed? If so, I apologize for my gender, and hope you will see from this thread that it might not have been personal. (Unless you’re sure it was personal, in which case… <shrug>)

122

You ask what is the demand for a smile, AK84. I don’t know why, but I have OFTEN had men say to me “smile” out of the blue when I am merely sitting at my desk, looking neutral. Nothing here to smile about. But some men seem to feel that it’s important that women be happy-looking at all times. You clearly have no idea what a pain in the ass this is. Sitting here, minding my own business, and some random dude, passing by me, says “Hey! Smile!” Well, hey, buzz off, dude.

Yeah, araminty, there is an echo in here.

123

I have had men tell me to “smile,” too. It is infuriating. Remember how people were telling Hillary to smile? And when she did, they said she was “smiling too much”? :smack:

I repeat: when a woman tells you what her life is like, you must believe her.

124

I guess AK84 didn’t read the part where I said it started well before puberty, when nobody but deranged creeps should be sexually attracted to a person.

I guess I accidentally accused all men in invisible font that only he can read, so I will make it clear: NOT ALL MEN!!! Just enough to make our lives difficult. If you aren’t one of those, kudos for meeting the bare minimum of human decency. I you are one of those, fucking stop it.

125

Are you fucking serious?? I’m one of those who had to stop smiling because many times it was taken the wrong way. So now, I’m labelled a “bitch” by someone who professes he’s one of the nice guys? What a joke. NO WOMAN owes you anything.

126

We are humble-bragging that men accost us, because we think we’re hot. And if we don’t want to smile at random men it means we’re prickly bitches

FML!

127

Obviously sexual assault and inappropriate behavior is far from rare but with regards to absolutely trusting any random woman, why MUST you? I’m not saying anyone in this thread is dishonest but in the real world there is ton of dishonesty. There is no obligation to take anyone at her word especially when the courtesy is not reciprocated.

128

When a woman tells you what her life is like, you must believe her because you have NO OTHER SOURCE of information on what her life is like. Do you see that? YOU don’t know what it’s like to be in her body, in her skin, looking out through her eyes. A woman is the final authority on her own experience. Just like you are the final authority on your own experience. That should be intuitively obvious to the most casual observer.

When a woman tells you what her life is like, you must believe her. Just like when you told me about having a hard time knowing what to teach your kids, I believed you, even though I am a childless only child and have NO experience with children. I didn’t doubt you or assume you were lying for some effect, or trying to be manipulative. I call that a reciprocation of courtesy.

129

“Trust” might have been a strong word, but “respect” would certainly be correct. If I tell you to piss off, I expect you to piss off. If I tell you that I’m happy, then again, I expect you to piss off. Whether I’m actually happy or not is immaterial to you. You’re beholden to respect my wishes, since I have the right to be treated as I desire. You don’t have to believe me, but you don’t have any right to override my wishes based on your own prerogative. Your desires, thoughts, and opinions don’t override mine. You get to decide your own life. I get to decide my own.

(Note that I’m male, but this goes for both genders.)

130

I don’t think you have to trust “any random woman”, trust is earned, but give someone the benefit of the doubt when talking to her (or anyone, really, who hasn’t demonstrated an obvious reason to distrust them) and don’t be an asshole. That’s pretty much all it takes. For any of us.

131

This is so confusingly written.

I never said they did. But I don’t see the relevance to absolutely being mandated to think that any random woman is 100% honest. Everyone knows crotch grabbers exist. I’ve been surprise groped before. By women and men. Now that I think about it the ratio might be close to even.:eek:

132

I do. I usually take people at their word until I have evidence otherwise. I’m respectful like that. Even people that appear to be trolling or whatever on this board I treat as if they are sincere. Why not?

In real life with commercial transactions and what not I feel there is always a bit of dishonest rusty involved but that’s sort of irrelevant.

133

I think **Helena330 **stated it best: give people the benefit of the doubt. In my circle of friends, we call this the Assumption of Good Will (AGW). It means that all things being equal, in the absence of CLEAR evidence to the contrary, assume the OP’s good will toward you. IOW knock the chip off your shoulder. Don’t assume it’s all about you, because it probably isn’t.

134

I never said it was. These stories shared were and are very sad. And you folks are around to share them. Many are not that fortunate. Many get snatched and dispose of and that’s that. So I have tremendous sympathy for the biological power disparity.

I have a daughter and a son and every day I worry some deranged pervert is going to harm them. I’ve had to tell my own preteen children that if someone pulls a gun on them and tries to abduct them it would be better to be shot and killed quickly then to be abducted and sexually tortured. That’s a hard talk to have. I take this very seriously. I don’t take the reticence of women not wanting to engage personally. It’s survival. And it’s sad that the world is the way that it is.

I still find it funny that there are those who will call someone racist for showing fear when outnumbered in an area in which one is a minority and yet completely defend women for feeling fear in the presence of men. It’s not racism or sexism to have a legitimate sense of wariness when you are in a situation of potential disproportionate power towards you. It’s survival and I would never begrudge people taking precautions, even at the expense of hurting someone’s feels, to ensure their own safety. I’ve consistently argued that point of view.

135

Thank you for that. And you’re right, that would be a very hard talk to have.

My bold.

Allow me to call attention to two different words.

And has someone said that in this thread?

Hell, that’s what WE’VE been saying all along! Can we declare a Zone of Agreement and temporarily shelve this? I’m getting hungry.

136

So what if the words are different? And I’ve never disagreed with women or men wanting to take precautions to protect themselves. I put other people’s feelings far down the list in my priorities when it comes to safety. I think women and everyone else for that matter should do the same thing.

And it does help to put a “human voice” to under reported statistics. Threads like these make me sad and mad. I get mad at those who are entrusted with the care of a child and then sexually abuse that child. I really don’t understand that behavior.

137

I post on another board that is at least 90% women, and there are several who view men in this light (and in a few cases, it’s justified due to their own horrific personal experiences, starting with childhood sexual abuse). I got in trouble in one thread for telling one of them, “I am glad you did not have children, and here’s why: If you had sons, you would view them as predators, and if you had daughters, you would view them as victims.”

:dubious:

138

First time I remember being grabbed inappropriately and intimately? About 12, 13? I guess. Happened more as a young woman in my early 20s, but it started as a very young teen.

139

My (granted: somewhat minor) point was that “showing” fear in a potentially dangerous situation is something your potential antagonists might pick up on. Just “feeling” fear (but not necessarily showing it) is something a woman might hide from men she was wary of, specifically so she does not antagonize them. Thus these two situations (which you equated) are not the same. That’s the “what” of “so what?”

Okay…I’m exhausted from nitpicking today. Signing off. :slight_smile:

140

So a good statistic to know is that the majority of people who are sexually assaulted and raped experience their first incidence before the age of 18. Generally speaking, the older you get once you become an adult, the lower your risk. Obviously, a lot of other factors go into that, but looking entirely through the lens of age, teens are incredibly vulnerable to sexual assault.

This is my diplomatic way of saying my story is actually quite relevant to this thread, whether you are personally interested in my life experience or not. And even if it weren’t, sorry. I had to tell it. I’ll keep telling it until we live in a society free of violence.

As for the clusterfuck this thread has unsurprisingly become, a couple of points.
I think the purpose of the thread was probably twofold:

  1. Invite women to share their experiences and feel a greater sense of solidarity.
  2. Raise awareness about how being groped and harassed and assaulted is a pretty basic and integral part of being a woman in society.

By this measure, I find it quite encouraging when men speak up and say, ‘‘Wow, that’s terrible, I would never do that.’’ Even better to hear from folks like Urbanredneck about steps they’ve taken to intervene. It’s fantastic to know you’ve got people in your corner, and bystander intervention is in all honesty probably the most effective approach to ending this bullshit. I work for an organization that, among other things, provides education to prevent domestic violence and sexual assault to students of all ages, and a huge part of the curriculum is bystander intervention. This is the new paradigm many prevention ed programs are taking because we have evidence that it’s working to stop violence in schools. We are equipping students with concrete tools to intervene when they see warning signs or inappropriate behavior. I think this whole approach can best be framed as, ‘‘We know you are a great person and would never do this. Now let’s go to the next level and help to ensure others don’t do this. Let’s actively work to promote a culture where this doesn’t happen.’’ While this is a new paradigm shift, early research is promising… this actually seems to work, unlike lecturing future rapists or giving women a laundry list of things they must do to not be raped. Cultural problems can only be resolved by changing the culture, big surprise!

So that’s all very positive. Where the breakdown comes (for me) is when we devolve into this combat between women declaring their right to be afraid of men, and men deflecting the very real problem of disproportionate sexual violence against women by pointing to the victimization of men by women. I view BOTH of these positions as counterproductive to building awareness and understanding.

  1. I really, really, really dislike hearing statements that generalize about any gender, man or woman. I also hate the idea that having been victimized necessitates living in fear of all men. I’ve been molested by two men and harassed by some others, but I just don’t live my life that way. I don’t walk down the street assuming the worst could happen. This is further buttressed by statistics indicating that strangers aren’t really the danger we have to face when it comes to sexual violence. Most sexual violence comes from the people we trust.

In my own life I’ve relied on many men – safe men, my husband of course being the safest of all – to help process my own experiences. I think my view of men is shaped more by him and by the friends who have stood by me than it is by the handful of assholes who felt entitled to my body. My default view of men is ‘safe.’ I respect that people, especially survivors of sexual violence may be at different stages of processing what happened to them, but I don’t by the wildest stretch of the imagination believe that ‘living in fear of men’ is an ideal place to stop in the healing journey.

  1. The victimization of men by women (or men by men, or whatever) is every bit as egregious and unacceptable, but it also exists in an entirely different sociopolitical context. We know so little about male victims of sexual violence that I could only begin to guess at the unique issues they face as a result of their experience, but context matters. A man’s experience of the world is going to be different than a woman’s even if they are both sexually assaulted. Gender essentialism is a deadly two-edged sword that affects men and women in different ways. The cultural attitude that suggests women were ‘asking for it’ and ‘boys will be boys’ is the same poison that suggests men must always want attention from women and should be happy if they are assaulted. We all live and suffer in this toxic culture – BUT! – men still have power in this society disproportionate to women, women are still disproportionately victims of sexual violence, and as long as that is the case, the absolute most loving, supportive, compassionate thing a man can do in response to hearing stories from women survivors is listen.