Spice, it’s posts like that which make you one of my favorite Dopers. Very well said.
Thanks to ThelmaLou for starting this thread. I’ve learned so much.
Thank you for that.
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Spice weasel, what joyfool said. That was very well done!
Quoted for truth. I’m sorry I posted earlier in this thread, because, men, this thread is not about us. It’s not the place for us to protest that not all men grope, or that we never would, or to mansplain,or to white-knight (as I admit I am doing now).
This thread is for women to talk about their experiences of sexual assault. Our part, if we choose to participate, is to be silent, and to bear witness.
I can’t speak for all women but personally I like hearing supportive words from men. Misogynistic people don’t give a shit what women think, or take our experiences seriously, so the more men who take our reality at face value and are vocal about it, the better chance our message is heard. Sympathy/empathy/outrage are always welcome.
My only real issue is when others participate in such a way as to minimize, discount, or argue against the experiences of survivors.
And thank you all for the kind words.
I’ll relate the top four instances of having my crotch grabbed when I didn’t want it. There are more, but these are the most egregious.
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Age 6 or 7, playing at a neighborhood friend’s house. Her father hoisted me on to his lap and began to stroke my crotch. I squirmed away from him, went home and told my mother. Response was to not go into their house anymore, and I didn’t. A few years later I worked out why my friend, his daughter, was so quiet and sullen.
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Age 12, was invited on a ride-along with the neighbor across the street, who was a cop. He invited me to sit up front, then groped my genitals and breasts every chance he got. I strategically moved to ride in the back seat as soon as I was able and stick close to his partner, whom I suspected realized what was going on, but didn’t think it was worth the guy losing his pension over it. Never went near that neighbor again, obviously.
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Age 15, my father’s business partner, a married man, started finding pretexts to come by and visit me at school just as it was letting out. I thought he was just being friendly, offering me rides home – until he reached across the car seat one day and fondled my crotch. Sprang out of the car, told my dad… that was the end of that partnership – but no consequences to the man beyond that.
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Age 24, friend of an ex-roommate’s boyfriend stopped by to see if ex-roommate or boyfriend were around. Asked if he could have a glass of water. Foolishly, I said yes. He suddenly grabbed my arm and crotch. I was so angry, I guess I frightened him and he left without things getting worse. I fell apart after he had gone, realizing how close I came to getting raped.
This crap happens to women all the time. It needs to stop.
I agree.
Actually, every woman owes every person she interacts wth; courtesy. As does every man. If you do that, great. If you don’t, then rudeness is coming to you (or anyone else).
Spice, I liked your post too, thanks.
I agree. It seems to be the usual story: observers speaking from a position of unwitting privilege, and trying to force their view of the world on everyone else. Oh haaay, old white men! Not everything is about you!
Why? Why must you be courteous when you are uncomfortable in an area or situation? I got mugged by a group of hoodlums near some public housing because I was being courteous and seeing what they wanted when they waved me over. I should have been discourteous and got out of dodge because it seemed sketchy.
It was in broad daylight and the middle of the street. And I was 6’0" 190lbs and can fight when it happened. All because I chose to engage. So, I don’t think anyone is owed anything when we live in a world where people will con you, even play a long con, in order to get what they want which may be harming you badly.
Feeling that you are owed an interaction when those interactions can and do go badly for very many is showing a little bit of a lack of empathy.
If someone makes me uncomfortable, I don’t owe them anything.
If someone’s action’s do then yes certainly. However, if as it is your case, someone’s very existence does, then… wow.
Tell me, do you live in a bunker somewhere?
If all she’s doing is not smiling back (at a compliment or a catcall, I’m assuming), then why exaggerate that much? All she is doing is not smiling. She’s not attacking them, she’s not running away, she’s just… ignoring them.
Nobody is owed anything, especially when it comes to courtesy. I’m courteous because I am, if someone replies to my good morning or not, I don’t expect courtesy back. To expect something back implies to me that one is not really doing it out of goodwill.
I’ve gone through years in the country I live (Trinidad) alternating between replying and ignoring. Who I ignore? Those who make me uncomfortable. And many times, judged by their comebacks when I ignore their “simple” “Good morning sexy!”, I’m justified I did (last time I started hearing a diatribe about “those immigrants and how do they act so rude”).
You seem to be exaggerating a point that Helena said.
Yeah, we’re uppity, uptight bitches who surely live in bunkers.
Damn! That’s the kind of attitude we get from random guys on the street when we don’t return their “niceties”. Or the classic “are you a lesbian?”
I’ve been crotch groped plenty, but these are ones that stand out:
- A guy who managed to grab me in the crotch while he was on his bike and I was on mine. Kind of impressive. I jerked in shock which made him veer off course and fall off.
- The man who raped me essentially started with a crotch grope.
- The next man who groped me in the crotch is in jail for doing it and still has no idea what he did wrong. Because he always does that to women. So, y’know. He can do that.
I don’t around grinning like a Cheshire Cat at random men in the street and I try to ignore catcallers, deciding in the moment which option is safer for me. I do not owe anyone anything at all and I can assure you I am courteous when that is appropriate.
But good og would I be an idiot if I went around smiling at men! It’s not that I am scared of men. At all. After being raped I actually became less scared, I think. The next guy who grabs me will regret it.
It’s just if I am smiling to myself and catch a man’s eye THEY. WILL. NOT. LEAVE. ME. ALONE. They think you’re getting married now or some stupid shit. Honestly, men will just start walking along with me trying to talk to me, asking for my number, “can I come with you?” “I don’t mind you have a husband” and relentlessly, relentlessly bothering me. Tell them to fuck off and you’re a bitchcuntwhore.
Seriously, who the fuck goes around smiling at men? What planet is that? It is not rude to go about your business, it doesn’t even make you scared. I just don’t have time for that shit.
Oh, absolutely! Between one school and another I’ve had a ton of teachers, more male than female ones, and there was one who was sexually agressive. Two big bullies (one male, one female), several smaller bullies. Maybe I went to school in the land of the carebears and nobody remembered to tell me, but I know most of the schools in my home town are closer to that than to having material for horror stories.
But I think most people here will agree that the incidence should be zero. It may feel like we’re trying to prove Zeno’s paradox some times but hey, one little turtle step at a time…
No, no stranger owes you a smile. Period. The idea that a strange woman refusing to return your smile or greeting when you have no business with her is a “rude, prickly bitch” is exceedingly presumptuous and an exercise of male privilege.
Regarding the expected-smile thing - my apologies to the women for being skeptical up until now. It’s just so science-fiction weird that I had trouble believing it could be so real or widespread. What kind of person thinks they’re entitled to have a woman smile at him? Well, I guess now I know. Thanks AK84!
Smiling is a friendly gesture. It’s not courtesy. Nobody owes you a smile except maybe a friend. As for courtesy, that’s just a set of behaviors to signal “hey, I’m not out to screw you over.” Society functions better at every level when people are courteous, but everyone has the right not to give you the time of day if they don’t feel like it. You’re entitled to respond in kind, but you’re not entitled to demand that they give you the time of day.
There is a social milieu wherein you can demand that someone literally greet you and give you the time of day. It’s called military courtesy. If you want to be in an environment like that, join the military (and work on getting yourself some rank).