Women: your opinion of orgasmic birth

Great Debates
141

I think people are so unaware now of “what can go wrong.” And we have such a culture of “blame the victim” - if something went wrong, it was probably your fault. We just don’t want to face that sometimes bad things happen, and when we do face that, we don’t want to believe they can happen to us. Therefore, you get “I could have done it if it weren’t for medical intervention.”

Birth is like weddings - there is no way that the day can live up to the expectation you have. But unlike weddings - where there isn’t “a way” to get married - there is a way that “nature intended” us to give birth. For a whole lot of people, if nature meant it to be that way, that must be the RIGHT way.

142

I find this to be absolutely true. I really, really wish I had read more on what could happen. I don’t think it’s appropriate to scare pregnant women, but it’s so important to know in advance what could happen and to have a plan for what you’ll do if something happens, other than the thread of a c-section. The natural birthing classes I’ve attended focused on two things: the evil of intervention and the wonder of natural birth and very little in between. Other complications were mentioned as an afterthought, “because they’re so rare.” The idea that pain during childbirth was a product of our culture was a constant litany, and the class very strongly set up the hospital and staff as adversaries.

I’m all for home births if they work for you, but I hate, hate, hate that natural childbirth so often results in a line in the sand between patients and physicians. It’s incredibly unproductive and occasionally dangerous. I don’t think the doctor is always right (hell, I was told I had a UTI when I was in labor and was sent home with antibiotics), but I do think that there must be a middle ground between having your own plans and listening to your physician or a second opinion if necessary (and if possible - if you’re in an acute situation, it probably won’t happen).

In retrospect, my seizure probably could’ve been prevented. The high blood pressure couldn’t, but I also have a seizure disorder, had been in extreme pain for over 30 hours. I had been awake for almost 45 hours, a common seizure trigger. And I had been so busy with labor that I hadn’t had any seizure medication in more than 24 hours. It was a perfect storm for disaster, but I managed to convince myself that getting help, taking an epidural was giving in to the evil hospital, who clearly had their own agenda. I was a complete idiot, and wish I had thought more about other, non-c-section and epidural-related complications. Had I been clear-headed enough to remember to take my meds and communicate that to my attendant nurses, the birth could’ve been far less dangerous and horrible than it was.

143

And just when I was going to make this thread less controversial by encouraging orgasmic abortion.

144

There was a great (and, yes, scary)piece in the Guardian a few weeks ago on birth-related injuries, and how many women are reluctant to discuss them (and sometimes, to seek medical help for them). An excerpt:

Also, fFor perhaps the first time ever on a newspaper’s website, the reader comments are actually as if not more useful and enlightening than the article itself.

145

Yes. On a different message board I go to, I once posted about Whatsit Jr.'s experience when he was a month old and contracted RSV that ultimately landed him in the NICU for several weeks, complete with ventilator and chest tube(s). Someone on that message board quoted my post as an example of why it’s so important that babies be exclusively breastfed, as this sort of thing doesn’t happen to exclusively breastfed babies.

Once I finished cleaning up the nuclear fallout from around my house after I read this post, I posted a response to her explaining that her hypothesis was, shall we say, inaccurate, as not only was Whatsit Jr. “exclusively” breast-fed (I irrationally dislike that term), but he barely even left my arms for his first month of life. It was just one of those freak things that happens. She then came back and said, “Well, many times breastfeeding isn’t enough if the mother’s nutrition is poor.”

For someone like this, there is no possible evidence that will convince them they hold an unsupported belief. If the baby was breastfed and still got sick, then the mother must have eaten poorly. If the mother had a nutritious diet, then maybe she was exposed to environmental toxins. Etc. It’s all just a way to convince yourself that if you do things exactly right, nothing bad will happen to you or your kid. Same thing with a lot of the natural birthing stuff. Is it better to birth vaginally than via C-section? Yes, for several reasons that have actual data backing them up. Does giving birth via C-section mean you have failed as a mother, doomed your child to a second-rate infancy, and that you need to grieve the “loss of your ideal birth” for the rest of your born days? No. That, in fact, is ridiculous.

Agreed, agreed, a million times agreed. This issue has become very unfortunately politicized, to the point that if you mention you have a birth plan, you will have a certain cohort of people telling you that obviously you care more about your “birthing experience” than about your baby’s health and safety. Or conversely, if you mention that you have a scheduled induction, you are clearly someone that has drunk the medico-insurance hegemony’s Kool-Aid and are dooming yourself to a certain C-section and probably bottle-feeding too, you cretin.

I went to Bradley classes and really gained benefit from the relaxation/pain management techniques they teach there. I still use them during tricky dental procedures. But I too found that the teacher was interested in heavily promoting the idea that doctors and hospitals are evil and will try to ruin your birth experience so that they can make you fit into their set procedures. This is…counter-productive. I had a fantastic OB for my 2nd and 3rd pregnancies, so maybe that is coloring my experience on this, but I found that he was quite receptive to listening to my preferences about labor and delivery, as long as we were both clear that they were just that: Preferences. That might have to change depending on circumstances. He didn’t think I was some kind of crazed granola-muncher just for having a birth plan, and I didn’t think he was an evil Nazi because he wanted me to come in for additional fetal monitoring every couple of days toward the end, etc. Although this goes back to what I said before about the importance of finding a doctor you can trust.

Hm, I apparently have more to say on this topic than I initially thought I did. :eek:

146

Well, you didn’t rub your lucky rabbit’s foot when you breastfed, now, did you?

Its this weird science based superstition. People don’t understand that statistics are not terribly useful when talking about any individuals experience (it doesn’t matter if babies delivered via c-section don’t latch as well if YOUR baby would be dead if delivered vaginally)

147

You said “some women are open enough.” This implies that the other women are not “open enough” Saying someone is not “open enough,” especially when it’s to something described as purely nice, is typically taken to be a criticism of that person.

148

My OB was great as well. I was overruled on one thing - if I was going to tear, I wanted an episotomy - my OB said in his experience, that just provided a starting point for the tear, like cutting the edge of a sheet. He’d rather repair a natural tear. (I did tear, he fixed it).

Other than that he basically said “its your pregnancy…” He would induce anytime after 38 weeks if I wanted it. Schedule a c-section if I wanted it. No medication if I wanted, or I could be hopped up on morphine the whole time. (Although his recommendation was to "let things happen and take it from there:)). There were two rules - no baby before 38 weeks if it could be prevented and induce at 42 weeks if baby hadn’t come. And the most important rule - plans change.

(ETA: He did mention, because we were joking about it, that the placenta is considered medical waste and no, I couldn’t take it home to bury it under a tree or make soup.)

149

:mad:

Unfortunately, this turns out not to be so!

If I could remember some names or something, I’d provide the cite, but there have been cases where doctors did the correct thing as determined by their knowledge of medical statistics, and were sued when something went wrong, and lost the suit because what they did, though they did it knowing for the right reasons that it was statistically the best thing to do, nevertheless wasn’t the thing that is typically done in medicine.

The juries decided the doctors should have been doing what people usually do, rather than what the doctors themselves knew, based on sound reasoning, was the best thing to do.

Hospital legal departments, then, have an interest not in minimizing risk but rather in making things such that an idiotic jury would be happy with how they were done. :mad:

150

Maybe, maybe not. Seizures are a sign of eclampsia, so perhaps even with your meds, you may well still have seized. I’m no OB nurse, but last I checked, pre-eclampsia and eclampsia were poorly understood (as to cause). Did they give you magnesium? That helps prevent the seizures, IMS.

I, too, dislike life recipes: if I do X and adhere to 1-2-3, this Bad Thing will not happen to me etc. Unfortunately, it does work for some things. Example: if I never drink alcohol, I’ll never succumb to alcoholism. True, but you may become a shopaholic… It only goes so far, like everything else in life. :slight_smile:

151

JFTR, my initial post never stated ANYTHING about what anyone should feel…just about what I felt, what others I’d known had shared re’ their experience, and a summation of my personal thoughts/opinion on the matter (the thread WAS in that section at the time).

My second post was largely sarcastic (:rolleyes:) and in response to the rather heated reactions of several who felt compelled to state their own opinions in terms of dismissing mine.

Certain things I said are facts (labor and birth are natural processes for which the female body is adapted; on a purely physiological level, including hormonally, the processes are very similar to the process of orgasm in a woman; and our interpretation of physical sensations can strongly affect our perception of them, in the same way our interpretation of ANY stimulus or experience can be dramatically different depending upon beliefs, ideas and fears we hold and subsequently attach to said stimulus.)

My view on birthing at home as opposed to a hospital is that in the case of an uncomplicated pregnancy, it is preferable. Most pregnancies and deliveries are uncomplicated. That does not mean some aren’t otherwise, or that birthing in a hospital setting is not preferable or even necessary in some cases. You can bet the farm that if, at any point, there was any evidence that NOT being in a hospital during delivery was not in the best interests of myself or by children, I would have altered the birth plan.

My midwife was very skilled, experienced, well equipped for emergencies (many seem to think they show up with hot water and rusty scissors or something…she carried oxygen, pitocin, and a wide array of other tools just in case) and very much on the conservative side when it came to transfers to the hospital which was 5 minutes away and on call for such unlikely events (at the time her record was over 1,500 home births and a handful of transfers and one neonatal death which was due to a congenital malformation in which the parents opted for delivery rather than termination).

I did a great deal of research (including long before I had children, during earning my degree in Child Development) before reaching a decision to opt for home birth (IF it proved possible in my case).

I’m sure one influence was that my maternal grandmother birthed her 5 children at home with her English teacher sister acting as lay midwife…unlike many, I had a point of reference for seeing birth as not necessarily something requiring hospitilization. In her day (and more so in HER mother’s day) most women birthed at home, either with a midwife or Dr., and maternity wards in hospitals were (often quite rightly) seen as very dangerous places where only the poorest, most desitute ended up to be “practiced” upon.

The “cascade of interventions” which tends to happen in a hospital setting is one excellent reason, IMO, to avoid that setting unless it is indicated by known risk factors. It begins with induction, a standard practice in many hospitals, and a process which renders contractions much stronger than they normally are.

The woman tends to be on the clock from the moment she checks in, esp. if her water has broken (as mine did at the start of both of my 11 hr. labors, as do 25% or so of all womens’). The worry is infection, a risk which is much more likely in a hospital setting than at home. If it doesn’t break on its own, it will often BE broken manually, which also serves to speed up labor and the intensity of contractions.

The intensity of the induced contractions can result in the need for medication to control the pain, but this medication has the common side effect of SLOWING labor, “necessitating” MORE pitocin or other inducing agent, which results in more pain, which may require more drugs, etc…

Add on the stress of being in a strange, intrusive, clinical environment (in mammals, stressful surroundings or circumstances are known to slow or even stop labor), constant fetal monitoring (which can not only trigger over-reactions to normal variations but require the woman to be on her back and still, rather than moving around, which can also slow labor) and the often overly interventionist approach of modern obstetrics (in which the reaction to a longer but still normal labor and/or the slightest indication of fetal or maternal stress is often the cue to shift to emergency C-section mode), and it is no wonder so many hospital births are “complicated”.

And that the C-section rates in the U.S. and other nations where hospital birth is the norm are so egregiously high (even according to the AMA, et al). Yes, sometimes cessarian IS necessary, and thank the stars we have it. But a great many are simply NOT necessary by any medical standard and carry risks much higher than vaginal birth for both mother and child, all else being equal.

As for my decision not to use drugs, well, that of course is the norm for a home birth, plus, these drugs pass to the neonate and I simply wanted to avoid any possible risks (known and unknown) associated with such exposures. I suspect the effects vary widely, but I’ve encountered quite a few newborns who were groggy and “out of it”, and others (including my own) who were alert and focused from birth, depending on the drugs used during labor and delivery.

It is not that I am a glutton for pain (my own mother said, “I can’t believe you, of all people, did this w/o drugs! You’ve always been such a pansy!”:p) but, to a certain degree, the idea of being drugged during the experience didn’t appeal to me…I wanted to be fully present and as in control as I could be, both during and immediately after the birth(s). Both for myself AND for the baby I was so looking forward to welcoming right away.

And in retrospect, for ME (not speaking for ANYONE else) the sensations I experienced were very different in quality from other pain I’d felt due to injuries or illness.

In all, my “opinion” of orgasmic birth is that I accept that it is possible, but I don’t see it, or any OTHER form or setting for birth as necessarily better or worse for EVERYONE. I hold my own views and have my own experience re’ what was best for ME and in my educated opinion, in general (same way some consider hospital birth generally better), but I certainly respect the needs and decisions and experience of everyone else.

152

I know - I’ll probably never know what happened, though being seizure-prone certainly wasn’t in my favor. It was such a dicey situation. In contrast, birth #2? Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful. I loved the nursing staff. The lactation consultant was excellent. The support I received even after leaving the hospital was phenomenal. It made things so very much easier. It did hurt. It hurt a lot. But the seizure and subsequent migraine with kid #1 hurt more.

And one thing about parenting I learned after a few months with our son: every promise I ever made to myself about those “controversial” topics on message boards was broken (“Oh, I’ll only breastfeed - no formula for my son!” “Our baby will never, ever sleep in our bed!”). Parenting is very humbling.

153

You know IO, I can’t put my finger on what it is, but even this post comes across as smug and superior. Not sure why, as most of what you’ve posted is probably accurate, but it’s sure coming across in a negative way (at least to me).

So, with that disclaimer out of the way, I do want to address a couple of points you made:

  1. Some people don’t find hospitals strange, intrusive, or stressful. It was very calming for me during the entire process to know that if something went wrong there were experts available RIGHT THERE to assist. Now, I appreciate that a home birth with a midwife does have one expert - I was calmed by the presence of MANY experts. Seriously - every time another doctor/surgeon/nurse walked in I calmed down a little. The only person who DIDN’T calm me down was the student nurse (who I had consented to have present) because she was a newby and I figured she didn’t know anything.

  2. At the beginning, after induction, I was not on a fetal monitor. I wasn’t on a fetal monitor until I received my epidural - 4 hours into the process. While monitoring may be standard at some - even many - hospitals, it’s not a given. As I posted up thread, I suspect it may be more common in the US because here in Canada I don’t know anyone who was put on a monitor as soon as they arrived.

  3. I was given a choice between having my labour continue as it was (i.e. not progressing at all), having them try to turn Junior with forceps and then have me push him out or a C-Section. I opted for the section (in fact I begged for the section) and my signature is actually on a consent form although it’s almost unreadable. It’s probably a good thing because I had gone into shock and lost consciousness a moment later - I was in and out of consciousness until Junior was born.

  4. After Junior was born I was awake and alert and able to welcome baby right away. Now, I don’t know if the anestesiologist gave me something to perk me up, but I was certainly able to interact with Junior immediately - they checked him, wiped him off a little and plopped him on my chest. He screamed the entire time until I looked at him and said ‘Hi there.’ and he instantly stopped crying - it was weird, but fantastic. So your final point is also inaccurate - I had ever drug possible and was still able to interact with and calm my baby moments after his birth.

So, having written all of this, I may have narrowed why your post is so irritating - you’re posting as though the things you are saying about hospital births are fact, when in reality they’re not. I’m sure some hospital births go exactly as you fear/describe but many do not. I resent your suggestion that by choosing a hospital birth I’ve chosen increased stress, mandatory fetal monitoring, doctors pushing interventions, increased complications and the inability to interact with my baby. All of those things are just not true and yet you’re posting as though they are.

I have no experience with home birth so I do not post about it as though I do. As you have not had experience with hospital births, perhaps you should consider doing the same - that is, limiting your ‘factual’ posts to things you actually have experience with as opposed to things you read on a pro-home birth website or were told by your midwife.

154

I’m not really understanding why a hospital is inherently this clinical, strange, stressful environment. It can be, but I don’t think it always is. From the way a couple of posters have been talking, doctors and nurses are just out to make the birthing process as invasive and unnatural as possible. And while there are unpleasant doctors, don’t a lot of doctors embrace some of the things that make birthing easier? I’ve heard of women in hospitals who are allowed to physically move or squat. I don’t think it’s quite so simple as doctors making all women regardless of what they want lie there flat on their backs.

155

Yeah, the first hospital I gave birth in was awesome. I told them I preferred going without drugs if possible, and they were really on board with it, suggesting the birthing Jacuzzi and getting out the exercise ball thing to bounce on if I wanted, and helping me try various positions, etc. It was a really supportive environment.

Now, Whatsit Jr. was trying to come out sideways, so none of this was particularly effective, and I wound up eventually having a C-section (you know your C-section was necessary when the operating surgeon makes the incision and then says, “Oooooh… well, that explains a lot”) but the hospital and staff were awesome.

This of course is highly variable. The hospital and staff for my second and third babies (except for my OB, who as previously mentioned was a rock star) were a nightmare. Part of the reason I bothered to have a birth plan for baby #3 is in the hopes of avoiding some of the hospital nonsense that I went through with baby #2.

156

This claim is falsified from the following consecutive quotations from your original post:

Unless you mean to say it’s good to see labor as “painful,” calling this a “conditioning” definitely implies that experiencing labor as “painful” is unnecessary and in some way faulty.

There you actually use the word “should.” I don’t have to explain the meaning of this to you, do I?

Here you make the universal claim that labor sensations, for all human beings, are not inherently painful.

It is unclear whether you mean item 2 to be a circumstance under which the sensations become “inherently” painful or only apparently painful.

See my previous post for comment on your use of this phrase “open enough”. You’re making a universal value judgment. You should own up to it rather than trying to have things both ways.

157

It’s not - at least not for everyone. Before the epidural I was able to walk around, look out the window, use my husband as a support/birthing tool, have a shower, have a bath, etc. In addition there was a birthing ball if I wanted, a squat chair, and the actual delivery bed contorted into every possible shape to the point that had I wanted to deliver swinging in a trapeze, I think it could have accommodated.

Now, after the epidural, I also had the option of walking around, using the chair, hubby, etc, IF POSSIBLE - now my epidural took really, really well and my legs felt like huge sacks of potatoes so no walking for me, but I was still able to move about in bed, sit up, lay on my side, etc. And when I was pushing I still felt everything (i.e. nothing) happening despite the efficacy of the epidural.

158

I wonder if a lot of it has to do with women in labor being intimidated by the hospital environment as it is something they may be unfamiliar with.

When I had my son, I went into the hospital at 6.5 cm, with some pretty good contractions. As expected, a nurse came in after I’d changed into a gown, and proceeded to root around to check the cervix. Now, this hurts a bit, but whatever that nurse was doing was hurting A LOT.

I promptly told her to get her hand out of there. When she tried to pooh-pooh my concerns, saying something patronizing like “Oh, yes Mommy, I know it can hurt” I said something along the lines of “Get your hand out of there - it’s not supposed to hurt like that!” Looking at me and seeing I was serious and not crazed with pain/excitement, she withdrew her hand and I asked her to find another nurse. Which she did, and I never saw her again.

The next nurse was fine, and the pain was normal. The labor proceeded, everything was fine, etc.

Now, if I had wanted to walk around, or roll on the floor or chant or whatever, I would have let the nurses know what I was going to do. If they had objected, I would ask for the clinical reasons why, the risks (if any) and made a decision. And if I decided to walk, I would have. What were they going to do? Arrest me?

I had similar situations with my OBGyn. Great doctor, and when I went in for monitoring (I was almost 2 weeks “late” at this point), he wanted to induce me the next day. My husband and I discussed the options and risks with the doc, and told him we would rather wait a few more days. On day three, Son came, and all was good.

Point being - I think lack of education and a fear of hospitals/doctors cause more problems than the litigation department, and every birth parent should be well-educated in order to put them more at ease in the birthing suite. And I think that anti-doctor/hospital advocates do more more to feed the fear than ease the understanding of birth options.

159

None of my girlfriends - or myself were not allowed to move, squat, sit in the shower or tub, the rocker, given the option of the birthing ball, encouraged and supported in breastfeeding, seen by a lactation consultant, UNLESS there were contraindications for doing these things. All of us - with the exception of the two that had scheduled c’s for medical reasons - were encouraged to labor naturally for as long as it seemed “wise” - several of my girlfriends had c’s after 35+ hours of labor (stuck shoulders) or the baby going into fetal distress. Some were medicated after asking for it - none of us had pain medication pushed on us.

160

Considering all that you guys have posted on your experiences in hospitals, they hardly sound like these awful, scary anti-woman places. WhyNot’s posts, though, seemed very anti-hospital, which is bizarre and a little worrying, coming from a poster who talks extensively about how she’s training to be a nurse.