Sure, I will.
GAH! SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP! BOTH OF YOU!
How’s that?
Daniel
Sure, just one more: her appearance, which I see you conveniently left off.
I don’t pretend that racism doesn’t continue today (although in much smaller amounts).
I honestly don’t think that the fact that most of the original DC and Marvel superheroes were created as caucasian has a large impact on the day to day life of blacks, hispanics, etc. It would be nice to hop into the wayback machine and convince everyone that blacks and whites are and should be equal, but that is impossible. We are stuck with what we have.
The point I am trying to make is that when casting a movie of which the subject is a branded property known by millions of people as having a solidly consistent physical apperance, whenever possible, it only makes sense to cast someone in the role who at least bears a passing resemblance to the appearance of their character.
Take the Blade movies. When they did the casting call, do you think they looked at both white and black actors? I don’t. I would be just as understandably confused if they had cast Bruce Willis in the role. Wanna know why? Because Blade is black. Same with X-Men and X-2 when casting Storm. A lot of people would be confused if Lucy Liu had gotten the part. I just think characters should look the part; there is nothing racist about it.
Why did John Goodman have to dye his hair black for the Flintstones movie? Why do people cast to play Lucille Ball have to either have red hair or wear a red wig? Maybe, just maybe, it is because some people (like me) think it is important for an actor/actress to look like the character they are playing.
No, you are the one who said, “Jesus, could you imagine The Shawshank Redemption if they’d had to cast David Caruso?”. I was just providing a contrasting example to show the ridiculousness of your assertion. All I have been saying all along is, to me, it is important for continuity and believability that the actor/actress look the part (something you ignored in my previous post). That is all.
No, I don’t believe so. More likely, you are reading more into it than is really there. That cartoon was about teaching kids moral lessons on cheating, smoking, drinking, and yes, even racism. However, the property isn’t intrinsically about race, as you propose. The lessons it put forth transcended race and applied to all kids.
bangs head against wall I didn’t “conveniently” leave it off. You claim that WW’s “portrayal” has been constant. It’s not. If we choose any thousand characteristics about the character, maybe three have not changed. But that’s one that’s critically important to you, so much so that you demand it not be changed, even though every thing else has. What do they call those people who care about race more than anything else? Oh yeah.
Again, you’re not listening. I don’t think it has a big impact in the lives of most minorities either (although I guarantee it’s more than you think). But it’d have a pretty frikkin’ big impact on Gina Torres if that’s the only reason she failed to make the move from supporting player in genre entertainment to action star.
Torres has a more than passing resemblance to WW, she just doesn’t have the same skin color.
Could you really be so unobservant as to not understand why your “contrasting example” is not the same thing? I DON’T WANT THEM TO CAST TORRES BECAUSE SHE’S BLACK!!! I want them NOT to NOT cast her because she’s black.
This is increasingly an exercise in futility. I’m out.
–Cliffy
Like Hugh Jackman as Wolverine? The actor is, what, roughly 6’ and fairly lean and Wolverine is supposed to be 5’ 3" and stocky?
Yes, they’ve made other casting choices that seemed pretty dead on, but at times the casting choices were dictated by other factors. No one pictured Michael Keaton as Batman but the movie worked because it was a good performance. It could happen here as well, the public would forgive. I think movie portrayals drive comic art more than the reverse.
Personally, though, I don’t see Gina as WW or Diana, but it’s not because she’s black. I just don’t like her look.
Well, her appearance has changed wildly. Even if we ignore the myriad costume variations, she’s gone through several skin tones (sometimes she’s lily white, sometimes – like at the beginning of the Rucka run – her skin is darker), a million different hair styles (straight, extremely curly, the ugly 50’s do, the mod stuff in the 60’s), and almost as many different builds as it’s possible for a woman to have. She’s had huge eyes one month and squinty eyes the next, huge muscles and a slimmer build.
No, she’s never been black, but I don’t see how that would make much of a difference to a character raised in a presumably completely non-racist society and who comes to man’s world with a whole bunch of attributes that set her apart aside from race.
Bang your head all you want to, Cliffy. I fully realize that Diana has changed over the years. I don’t “demand” that her race not be changed. All I have said (and I am officially convinced you are ignoring my argument because of a personal agenda) is that the actor/actress should if, at all possible, look the part. If they cast Martian Manhunter, I don’t care if they choose a white guy or a black guy, but he darn well better be green when they are done with him. Because Martian Manhunter is green! Don’t you get that? Sheesh! I don’t care about race more than anything else. I care about consistency. It just so happens that race popped up here because of the suggestion that Gina Torres would make a good Wonder Woman. And all it takes is one argument that “Well, she might be good in the role, but she isn’t really consistent with Wonder Woman’s historical appearance” and people FLIP.
It’s not that I don’t want Gina Torres in the role of Wonder Woman only because she is black. I don’t want her in the role for the same reason I don’t want John Goodman to play Superman.
He. don’t. look. like. Superman. Get it?
Oh, I’m listening (or reading as the case may be). I’ll concede that I likely do not fully realize the impact that the average minority feels based on the original creation of the vast majority of comic book heroes, villains, and supporting cast as caucasian. And I completely agree that it would have a big impact on Gina Torres, especially if she was the best woman for the job. I never said anything to the contrary. Do you see my point about branding, though? About recognizability of a character? The costume is a big part of it, absolutely, but as sad as it is, as harsh as it is, when the Wonder Woman trailer appeared on the big screen, many people, from devoted fans to those with only a passing knowledge of the character, would be thinking the same thing: “Who is that black woman wearing Wonder Woman’s costume?” It doesn’t bring me any joy that African-American actors and actresses no doubt have difficulty landing roles in movies and television, especially in such niche work as portraying a traditionally caucasian character.
Well, I don’t know. As has been pointed out in this thread, she does have thin arms and legs, and isn’t incredibly buxom. Personally, I don’t see a resemblance. They are both tall women.
How is it not the same thing? You said, “could you imagine The Shawshank Redemption if they’d had to cast David Caruso?”. Why would they have to cast David Caruso? I assumed from your writing that they would have “had” to cast him because they wanted a white person, and therefore passed over the talented Morgan Freeman simply because he is black. Which would have been a tragedy, because he was great in the flick. My example was a contrast in that, what if they “had” to cast Chris Tucker because they wanted a black person, and therefore passed over the talented Tim Robbins simply because he is white.
I want the best person for the job. If Gina Torres comes into the casting call, she shouldn’t get shoved aside because she is black. I’d be the first in line to see the movie. She should have the right to compete with the rest of those who show up to play the part.
Hugh Jackman is a good example. People went off the deep end when they heard the casting choice. But he made a great Wolverine. Great casting choice! And if Gina Torres blew the casting directors away, she should get the part – hands down. But there will be some inevitable griping that she doesn’t resemble the historical appearance of Diana. That’s life.
Worst Wonder Woman ever!
I was waiting for someone to bring that movie up.
I’m still on record as supporting Lucy Lawless; but the age thing may get in the way. As an alternate I’ve come to decide that the obvious choice is Alexa Davalos. Angel the Series fans will remember her as Gwen, the woman who got Angel’s heart pumping and gave Gunn quite a shock.
I don’t read the comics; are the Amazons explicitly described as Greek there? Because the Greeks themselves always identified the legendary Amazons as foreigners. In art they were often depicted in clothing associated with whichever group of foreigners the Greeks were currently in conflict with (like the Persians).
Lamia
PreCrisis-AFAIK The Amazons were Greek. Though they had very advanced technology, they dressed in togas, tunics and sandals. Their architecture was that of ancient Greece. They played Greek sports (plus the occasional bullets&bracelets). They worshipped the Olympians.
PostCrisis-The Amazons are the resurrected souls of women murdered by men. AFAIK, they have no advanced technology. I don’t know what else was changed.
Also Of Interest
Lamia
PreCrisis- A lover Zeus, Hera cursed her and caused Lamia to eat her own children. Lamia now sees that event over and over. Zeus could not undo this, so he gave Lamia the boon of being able to remove her eyes so that she may rest. Lamia hates all mothers and all children. She prowls the night, killing and eating children.
PostCrisis-A disciple of the poet Sappho, Lamia became the lover of Hera. Enraged at his wife’s infidelity (despite his own numerous affairs) and the perceived insult to his masculinity, Zeus cursed Lamia that she may only wear the clothes of a man, and that a man’s beard must be upon her face. Unable to undo this curse, Hera made Lamia into the first drag king. She prowls the night, trying to get drinks, singing karaoke, and posting to the SDMB.
There are rumors that Vertigo will soon put Lamia in a story arc of The Dreaming, or possibly her own miniseries.
I completely agree. There’s nothing striking about Gina. She’s athletic and a good actor, but absolutely nothing special about her.
And I disagree with people who say that Catherine Zeta-Jones is too old. There were several scenes in Ocean’s 12 where she looks not a day older than 19. She could definitely play the part. I’d also second Monica Bellucci, but I haven’t seen her in anything where she was on screen for more than a minute at a time. I have a feeling she couldn’t headline an action movie.
Man, those comic book writers have pretty wild imaginations.
I mean, I don’t even drink!
Good goddamn, you two need to quit sippin’ the haterade. Gina Torres is hotter than lit gasoline.
They have some. In the latest issue of WW, an Amazon doctor used the purple healing ray on Diana, so that’s still around. They used to have the Wonderdome-alien-thing that also became WW’s invisible jet, but he’s “dead” (stuck in jet-form) since helping WW to stop a huge tidal wave from hitting (I think) the east coast. Harbinger (before she died) also maintained her massive intergalactic library of whatever on Paradise Island. Diana also has a way to teleport to the island, but I forget whether that’s magical or technological.
The one area in which they’re not technologically advanced at all is in terms of weaponry. Which I think is really stupid, but whatever. They’re definitely not as advanced as the pre-Crisis Amazons were (which is another huuuuge mistake that Perez made).
There are also the Bana-Mighdall Amazons (of which Artemis is one) who worship the Egyptian gods and who have been known to use modern weaponry.
Maybe I can be persuaded. But none of those photos on iMDB are flattering. Got any (work safe) links?
I didn’t see mention earlier in the thread but may have scanned too quickly.
Entertainment Weekly cast a vote for Evangeline Lilly, aka Kate on the TV show Lost. I certainly second the vote in the hotness category - she is beautiful. She also seems athletic and believable in an action role…
RAAAGH!
BLAAAGH!!
YAAAGH!
Boys! Chill the fuck out! You know i’m right when only Jennifer Connelly can be cast as Wonder Woman.
Whether or not Gina Torres is hot or a great actress, I don’t care. A black WW wouldn’t work, because she’s white and has black hair and an Amazonian body.
Maybe, if it’s the **The Rocketeer/Career Opportunities ** Jennifer Connolly. But the new emaciated “I wanna be like Lara Flynn Boyle when I grow up” Jennifer Connolly need not apply.