Sorry it took so long to research and write, it got covered by others since I started, but i thought I’d contribute anyway.
As they say in all pro sports (whether you agree or not): “If you’re not cheating, you’re not trying”
Umpires seem to take cheating very seriously, if a catcher complains about a bat being corked, they go and saw it open to see. (after the game)
So to say that once they were made aware of the problem that they just told him to wash it off seems fishy to me. Maybe you can’t convict someone of cheating unless you catch them in the act. So even the evidence of pine tar doesn’t convict him, unless they see him rubbing the area and then pitching. In fact there are all sorts of rules about what the pitcher can do with his hands. See the rules specificall 8.02. For example:
The Ump had the ball, had the complaint, why not eject him? cause they like him? In terms of Occam’s Razor, I believe he wasn’t caught cheating, just trying to cheat.
As for the Yanks and the A’s, if in the tapes thay can find evidence of him cheating they will join the long line of teams cheated out of a win (Buffalo Sabers, Missouri Tigers, Oklahoma Sooners)
Excellent idea. Please send me donations. We could put the statue in St. Louis .Under the arch would be a good idea.
When McGwire used what he used,it was not illegal. No foul no harm.
I would amend the rules to allow any and all performance inhancing drugs. All legal. Then it would be more fun to watch.
There’s NO WAY that Tony LaRussa would betray his players and organization by not protesting formally if he or the umpires had any thoughts that Kenny Rogers actually had a foreign substance on him.
If the Cards had though Rogers was doctoring the ball in the first inning, Tony LaRussa could have asked one of the umpires to inspect his hands while he was on the mound. As I understand the rules, though, once the pitcher leaves the mound, it’s too late. It’s incumbent upon the opposing team to call shenanigans. If they miss their chance, that’s too bad for them. I’m not sure why LaRussa didn’t ask for an inspection but if he’d done it, and if Rogers really had been loading up the ball, then the Cards could have gotten the Gambler ejected in the first inning.
My guess is that Kenny Rogers probably was spiking the ball but that the turtles didn’t do anything about it because St. Louis wasn’t complaining (kind of like how a coach has to ask for a replay in football). When Rogers left the mound, I think they had kind of a wink wink conversation with him to the effect of “Hey, dude, you’ve got some ‘dirt’ on your hand and they’re picking it up on television. You might want to go wash that off before we have to look too closely at it.”
With regards to the “tolerance” of pitchers doctoring baseballs, it’s not that big of a secret that pitchers have always tried to get away with whatever they can and that players, fans and officials have always kind of winked at it. It might not be right or fair but that’s how it is. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if Rogers got away with something last night but the oppsoing manager still had the obligation to collar a turtle and ask for an inspection.
Actually, he has been accused by other players before. A few years ago there was a pretty infamous incident where Milton Bradley accused him of scuffing:
(Relevant part from the link from a game in 2002)
Cleveland: OF Milton Bradley was not amused when the Texas Rangers sent a baseball to him in the Indians clubhouse. It had pine tar and vaseline on it and inscribed: “To Milton. All the best, Kenny Rogers.” Bradley had complained Friday night that Rogers was scuffing baseballs. “They were trying to make light of it, but everyone knows he was doing it.” Rogers said Rangers 1B Rafael Palmeiro autographed the ball. “Raffy’s my boy,” he said.
Then how do you account for Leyland’s comment that the Cardinals hitters were suspicious, and told the umpires?
I don’t know exactly what’s going on here and why things have unspooled in this manner. Perhaps LaRussa is trying not to distract his team; there is some logic to that. But something is wrong, and I get the sense that MLB would like this to be ignored - and given their ethics problems, the last thing they need is to look like they’re condoning cheating during the World Series.
The plot thickens even more… TLR is now claiming that none of his players ever complained to him about the ball having some odd movement, which doesn’t jive with any of the statements made by TLR, Leyland and the umpiring supervisor last night.
I blame frickin FOX. Those sensationalist pricks. Here’s how I imagine it: Their cameras pick some odd coloring up on Kenny’s hand, they know he’s been accused of shadiness before, so-- sensing the potential for drama-- someone from the booth calls someone official on the field and says “We heard some St. Louis players were complaining about odd ball movement, so we checked with our zoom and we saw something on Kenny’s hand.”
The official calls the St. Louis clubhouse/dugout and says “We heard some of your players were mentioning funny ball movement from Rogers and someone’s noticed something discolored on Kenny’s hand; do you want to check it out?”
TLR goes out to an ump and says “I’m hearing that there’s something funny going on with Kenny’s pitches; you wanna check to make sure he’s not doing anything squirrelly?”
A Tiger player overhears some discussion, and lets Leyland and/or Rogers know that he’s heard “The St. Louis bench is talking about something to do with Kenny’s pitches and pitching hand. You better make sure that sucker’s CLEAN ENOUGH TO EAT OFF OF because they might make some kind of check.”
Not wanting to risk anything at this point in the post season, Leyland tells Kenny to go wash his hands. He does. End of story. TLR lets it drop, the Cards let it drop, and the game is finished sans shitstain.
Except. FOX needs to create a little excitement around the lowest-rated WS in history, so they keep on harping on it and showing Kenny’s shitstain over and over and over and over and over and over, until it’s all anyone can talk about. Forget the incredible game Kenny pitched, or Monroe’s second homer in 2 nights, or the jam Jones pitched himself into and out of, or the fact the Cards took a game in Detroit despite very few thinking they would.
Nope, now everyone’s buzzing about this Series, and FOX hopes people will tune in Tuesday to see what happens next.
Pricks.
Maybe none of them did. With how I imagined it going down, it was one big cluster-fudge of a telephone line: little seeds of misinformation and assumptions spreading like nasty weeds in a matter of minutes.
I really don’t see how a wily veteran like Rogers would use pine tar in such an obvious and sloppy way during one of the most-watched appearances of his career. I mean, this wasn’t an untelevised game at Kansas City in July, for pete’s sake. He may be a complete asshole, but he’s not brain dead.
The Cardinal hitters may have noticed something during their at-bats (since no one seems to be clear on that now,) but La Russa for sure learned about it from TV through reserve outfielder John Rodriguez (the guy in the blue hooded sweatshirt who came to talk to TLR and Duncan.) He was in the clubhouse watching the broadcast, apparently, and came out to tell TLR what was happening.
Why TLR waited to go out, I don’t know. Why he’s now claiming no one said anything about the ball moving strangely, I don’t know. But something odd happened last night, and it hasn’t stopped today.
I account for it by saying that whatever the initial suspicions, LaRussa was ultimately satisfied - whether by the umps or by his own observations - that Rogers had nothing on his hand but legal dirt. If he was not satisfied, I am certain he would have pressed the point.
I think the idea is that he continued to do it throughout the game. The pine tar on his hand was likely there accidentally having been transferred from his hat or glove where it is more inconspicuous. If they had him wash his hands, he still had his stash somwhere on him.
SI has an unnamed bullpen coach (for what it’s worth) who explains well how these things are done.
I’m not saying that Rogers did this, as there isn’t incontrovertible proof, but it don’t smell nice.
Just heard the umpires said that they checked when asked and found nothing.Thats it ,even more convincing proof. We can now root for a Tiger victory.Complete exoneration and we owe then for casting doubt.
Here’s a very interesting perspective from an anonymous MLB bullpen coach: Link
An excerpt:
Check out the rest of that article. The coach seems convinced Rogers used pine tar and that after having washed the substance off, he went and got some shaving cream or suntan lotion, which have the same effect on gripping the ball but don’t work as well in cold weather.
Huh. According to ESPN’s Peter Gammons (who I think we all agree is beyond reproach as a baseball reporter) the umpires and Palermo made the decision that it would be “a better game” if Rogers was allowed to remain in rather than turning the game into a bullpen game in the first inning.
So there you go: it’s okay to break the rules if being punished for it would make the game less exciting.
Nothing will convince you. But,the truth is they almost all try to cheat. But a big brown spot would be kind of obvious. How stupid do you think he is?.He could find something clear or flesh colored to enhance his grip. They have history and a staff of coaches and thats the best they could do. Cmon drop the emotions and think about it a little.
Methinks Tony is probably aware of the whole living-in-glass-houses advice. And whether or not he-- during last night’s game-- thought Kenny was pine-tarring it, really didn’t want to open that can of worms.