Explain to me the “proof” that it was pinetar. I haven’t seen any proof that it was pinetar, just conjecture. Did the ump find pinetar on the ball when it didn’t make contact with a bat? Is there some proof that I don’t know about?
BTW I’m a Yankee fan and I wouldn’t be too happy if he was cheating.
The ESPN footage of his ALDS start shows a substance that doesn’t look like any dirt I’ve ever seen on the index finger of his pitching hand. The ALCS footage shows the same “clump of dirt” on his thumb as was on his hand last night. John Kruk and Steve Phillips, two men with significant baseball experience, say it’s pine tar and not dirt.
Since the umpires didn’t search him, it’s not a mathematical certainty, but when every baseball expert tells me it’s pine tar, it’s pine tar.
Tried an convicted by those without HDTV.
Good for you!
You know what, you’re right. Kenny Rogers is as pure as the driven snow, the Cardinals are just a bunch of whiny sore losers, and Fox and ESPN are just trying to drum up interest in a World Series matchup that no one wanted to see.
Also, the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus are real and Barry Bonds never used steroids.
Also, if it’s not pine tar, what’s the smudge on the back of his hat in this photo?
TEn or fifteen posts ago you were citing a small number of innings Rogers had pitched in 1996 as evidence he isn’t a good postseason pitcher. Now, suddenly, you complain about small sample sizes.
Provide a cite, please. Where are the quotes from Cardinal hitters complaining about unusual movement?
This is probably the worst, most asinine conspiracy theory ever devised. And that’s saying something.
And when the home plate umpire, after having it brought to his attention, doesn’t do anything, what does that tell you?
For this to really work, you have to twist and turn and make excuses for LaRussa not raising a shitstorm. It’s the frakin’ World Series. He and Leyland can make up after game 7. It’s all about winning right now.
Also, sportscasters are not experts, although some of them are knowledgable. Lastly, if you wish to believe it was pine tar, go ahead and do so. However, there is just as much evidence against doctoring as there is for doctoring.
Jim Leyland, in his postgame news conference, said that Cardinal hitters were complaining. Since Leyland wasn’t in the St. Louis dugout, I can only imagine he was told that by the home plate umpire.
And I’m not complaining about small sample sizes, I’m pointing out that complaining about small sample sizes isn’t a valid reason to ignore the data. We don’t have 400 innings of postseason pitching to analyze, we have a little over 40. And half of those are so wildly different from the other that it’s strange.
Your definition of proof is different than mine. You have conjecture from people who conject for a living. A photo of a smudge is not proof. There is no way an ump would just let it go if he had any proof. Especially in the world series. Still doesn’t mean you are wrong, just that there is no proof. As a Yankee fan I will officially get on the bandwagon and say we wuz robbed. The Tigers should be thrown out of the world series and the St Louis/Yankees series should begin. It’s the only way to be sure.
It’s also statistically invalid.
That was one of those half-way edits.
It’s been illegal for 80 years. In recent years, pitchers have been suspended for this kind of cheating - Tavarez for suspicion, Niekro for the nail file incident in 1987, etc. I’m not really seeing the tolerance. And furthermore, those cheaters have all been ‘outed.’ Nobody thinks Niekro and Perry were clean. If the same is true of Rogers, I don’t see why it’s wrong to make it public.
Brendan Donnelly of the Angels was also suspended for pine tar last season. Further in the past, there was Kevin Gross with the sandpaper in his glove.
I’m not sure what qualifies anyone to state that Rogers pitched the same after he apparently left to wash his hands as before, that a 90 something mile an hour ball thrown with a huge number of variables affecting it acts exactly how a viewer sitting remotely in his living room thinks it ought to act. It’s not like the pine tar would cause the ball to act in a violently different manner, is it? Wouldn’t the change be very subtle, but very subtle would be sufficient when microseconds and micromillimeters make a huge difference in a batter being able to connect and/or how and where the ball then goes into play.
Cheating is cheating, regardless of the enormity of the act. If, and it’s right now only an “If”, Rogers knowlingly used an illegal substance on the ball, his punishment should be swift and harsh. Question is, can legitimate proof be obtained? Circumstantially, a case can be made but that’s simply not good enough.
As a Cards fan, I have every reason to want the evidence to convince me that he was cheating.
I’m not convinced. I just don’t think the facts are conclusive enough. Yet.
I think La Russa, rightfully so, doesn’t want to talk about it b/c he doesn’t want it to be a distraction to his team. Let’s let our performance on the field do our talking, and let this rest. Dirtgate. Sheesh.
That and I think because of LaRussa’s friendship with Leland, he’ll leave it up to Jim to come forth if something egregious has occurred. Jim’s an honest guy and Tony’s not going to make an accusation to the contrary.
Why is it strange? Really, have you never seen a pitcher have three bad games and three good ones?
Youy know who’s suspicious? Chris Carpenter. I mean, forget small sample sizes; from 1997 to 2002, he was mediocre at best and terrible at worst. He cost his team a division title in 2000 through sheer ineptitude. His BEST ERA was 4.09. Then he joins the Cardinals and all of a sudden he’s a great pitcher. Maybe he’s started scuffing the ball. Sure seems a lot stranger than Kenny Rogers’s little 3-game streak.
Or how about Jeff Suppan? During his 3 starts of June 24, 30 and July 5, he was awful. Then he had three amazing starts where he gave up only 2 runs total. Isn’t that suspicious?
Fine, you’re right. There’s absolutely no way Kenny Rogers ever cheated. He’s a magnificent pitcher and congratuations on beating the Cardinals last night. We should give him a statue for the postseason he’s having.
And we should recognize Barry Bonds and Mark McGwire as the magnificent sportsmen they are as well. After all, there’s no proof they did anything against the rules either.
You’re being dense about the subject, brian. Most people, self included, are saying there isn’t enough evidence to convict Rogers as you have done, not that Rogers is clean. There is a difference.
I’ll go further and say the sport is full of cheating pitchers, and that the lack of consistent and firm enforcement effectively condones the practice. It’s not like pitchers have this little book Cheating Strategies the Umpires Don’t Know. Additionally, I’m fairly sure the ‘Dirty Dozen’* of suspected steroid abusers (not counting the one’s caught) only scratch the surface. And baseball isn’t the only sport facing this issue. Given the stakes, I’d say cheating is endemic through all professional and many collegiate sports.
Huffing and puffing at every guess of evidence is useless. If you want to really take a stand, stop watching all money-based competitive activity. It’s the only way to be sure you are not implicitly condoning cheating.
I admit, there are some things about the incident that make me suspicious. But I don’t see any point in being more suspicious than the umpires, managers, etc. who were right there at the time. They were suspicious enough to tell Kenny to go wash his hands, and maybe keep an eye on him, but not enough to check his glove, check his cap, do a strip-search, etc. I’m inclined to defer to their judgment.
I agree that, if he was cheating, he should have been caught and punished. If there was reasonable doubt, they should have checked it out, both so that he wouldn’t get away with it if he was doing something illegal, and so Detroit fans wouldn’t have their trip to the World Series tainted with the suspicion that they didn’t get it honestly. I hope (and will believe until convinced otherwise) that the fact that they didn’t check into it more thoroughly means that there wasn’t any reason to.
Yes suspended if you get caught. Tolerated if you don’t, especially if you win. Some pitchers have made a career of it. It’s always been a part of baseball and probably always will. You can bet on baseball and be banned for life. Get caught cheating during a game and you may get suspended for a game or two and then you can make a joke about it when you are on the Hall of Fame podium. I saw Gaylord Perry at an old-timers game. He brought a pail of water out to the mound with him and he dipped the ball in it before every pitch. HE made a career out of cheating. This is not to mean that I agree that pitchers should be allowed to cheat, I don’t. This is just to back up someones earlier statement that such behavior has been a part of baseball for longer than any of us has been alive.
