We need people like you sitting on the jurys during criminal trials…a thief, a rapist, a murderer are often desperate and probably confused. let him go…when the criminal is in a better mood and not so frustrated, he probably won’t repeat his actions.
Take your pick. From the link, bolding mine.
So, for starters, everyone who might have been rescued by a police officer is now shit out of luck.
Then there are the folks in wheelchairs.
Cops don’t have it so good either.
The mayor speaks.
You folks want to tell us again how ripping off DVD players, plasma TVs, and jewelry is not a bad thing? Is it not clear by now that, to quote a noted thinker of the 60’s, if you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem? Is all the gold in New Orleans worth the life of one child who might have been saved if the rescue workers were not reduced to fighting for their lives? It is chaos out there, and the looters are the cause of it.
I am not advocating shooting a looter on sight who is not threatening another person. I am appalled that anyone could justify such behavior, (theft of property) when all hands are needed for relief.
Where the fuck do you get off being outraged by what’s happening in this thread, when you’re not even being hurt by these actions?
Or…maybe… being personally hurt by crime is not a criterion for opposing it.
That’s not the question. The penalty for rape should not be death, yet a potential rape victim may defend herself by killing her attacker.
You’re asking about the penalty, which assumes an available infrastructure to arrest an accused, a trial by an impartial tribunal, and then a penlty imposed by law.
The question here revolves around a person desiring to protect his own property.
And I’ll give you my answer:
I’m a lifetime NRA member. I own guns. In that situation, I would kill someone attempting to harm my family, take my food, water, or transportation, or someone trying to take my guns, under the theory that (a) they could be turned against me instantly, and (b) if I lost them, I would lose the ability to protect the rest of the things I mentioned above.
But I could not bring myself to kill a person taking my DVD player and my plasma TV.
However, I understand how someone else could.
You’re oversimplifying the issue. People should have the right to use deadly force when they are in fear for their life. The potential rape victim has no idea what all the attacker has in mind. But introducing rape is an attempt to confuse the issue more generally by moving it from a matter of property crime to violence. I would not disagree that shooting someone to prevent a violent physical attack, particularly in circumstances such as these, is necessarily wrong.
The question really is whether deadly force is okay in regards to property crimes.
You’re also confusing it by introducing the concept of the individual defending his or her own property. What people are calling for here is more general - the community should take it upon themselves to shoot looters in general. I disagree. Death is not a reasonable punishment for theft.
I think you underestimate the power of mob mentality. I would absolutely “loot” for food and water, no question. I probably would be very tempted, if I saw people looting a jewelry store, to go do so myself. I assume–given my moral history–that I wouldn’t actually go through with it, but I don’t know for sure. When mob mentality takes over, who knows where my moral priorities will be. Is it wrong to loot? If you’re looting anything not required for survival, absolutely. But human behavior is a weird thing, especially in groups, and I can certainly understand what’s happening there.
These looters are now shooting at helicoptors, if the news is to be believed, and diverting resources from genuine law enforcement personell.
99% of the people left there are victims, and the 1% are fucking things up for everyone. You can get offended from your high and dry places, but NO is now a war zone, and it should be treated as such. Nobody is arguing that someone wading through water should be shot for taking cans of food, but the plasma tv, drug store, and armed animals should be treated as enemy combatants.
Toss them in Gitmo?
I just came in to report that too. Military helicopters are being pulled out of that airspace. I can’t logically conclude that the guns used were looted but that is certainly a possibility. Too all you idiots: that is what happens when you let a situation fall into complete anarchy. Now, many people are probably going to have to be killed and law enforcement as well to get control of the situation. You say “Oh, its just a few CD players” as if the situation won’t grow in intensity like water breeching a levee.
They’re shooting at helicopters; there are reports of a helicopter trying to land on the roof of a hospital in Kenner (East Jeff? the report didn’t say) only to see a crowd of 100 people, some with guns, waiting for them.
Now they can’t even evacuate the fucking hospitals? Frankly, I think a shoot to kill policy is not unreasonable at this point. Killing a few animals to save many, many thousands more is a fair tradeoff , IMO.
What does it mean when you say “these looters” are shooting at helicopters? Do you mean that people were coming out of a store with food or merchandise, set the stuff down, and started shooting at helicopters? Or are you stretching the term “looter” to well beyond its boundaries?
Seems to be endemic to those advocating “putting down” looters or treating them as “enemy combatants.” :rolleyes:
“What if one of these looters carjacked you or raped you?” Well, that would mean that they weren’t looting, they were carjacking or raping.
For what is the word “looter” being used as codeword here? Is it meaning something like “criminal,” or is it something else?
It would just make these debates a bit clearer if we used terminology clearly. Say what you mean, don’t be afraid!
Well, why not shoot at helicopters? Why should that be “wrong” all of a sudden? After all, nobody seemed interested in stopping these looters when they were breaking into stores and stealing everything in sight.
No one has a right to commit murder to protect mere property. The comparison to rape is ridiculous.
I am starting to wonder if you really are this fucking stupid. I’ve been presuming that you are just goading people with really simplistic arguments, but your persistence makes me wonder if we aren’t really looking at a limitation rather than a strategy.
“Killing a few animals?”
It’s awfully goddamn easy to judge other people when your sitting on your couch with a full box of krispy kremes and big ass diet coke, isn’t it. I’m amazed at how many perfect human beings we have on this board who not only would never THINK of taking food and water to survive a disaster, but also possess such perfect, godlike judgement that they can imperiously decide who deserves to live and die based on nothing but some images on a television.
It seems to me like some people are working awfully hard to come up with some kind of excuse - ANY excuse - to start slaughtering disaster survivors in the street.
You people fucking disgust me. You should all pray to your gods for forgiveness, you sick, sadistic, bloodthirsty fucks.
So here I am, friendly neighborhood bank robber. I walk into the bank, don’t threaten anyone, just walk around the counter and start helping myself to money.
Is it unreasonable for me to not expect to be shot and killed for taking it? It’s only property.
The way the media has drawn our attention away from the tragedy of the situation and shifted it towards SENSATIONALISM! CRIME! DEPRAVITY! GREED! is absolutely terrible. I thought most Dopers were better than to get sucked up into this trap.
In any catastrophe, the best and the worst sides of human nature come out. It’s a shame that all of the heroism and bravery that is going on over there is being overshadowed by all those “thuggish, animalistic looters”. Thousands may have died in this hurricane, whole neighborhoods have been razed, lives have been completely turn upside down, but we want to devote all this emotion–all this indignation, scorn, and outright hate–toward strangers who are stealing TVs and CDs from Walmart. Bah!
Yeah, they’re bad people. But if it makes you feel better, karma punished these bad people preemptively with a storm that has left them homeless. Toilets won’t flush so they are surrounded by shit. There’s no electricity so they bake like bread at night. They can’t drive anywhere because there is a frickin lake in the street. They can’t eat a decent hot meal because their kitchens are six feet under water and all the McDonalds are floating around like buoys in Lake Ponchartrain.
So they got their just desserts already, okay? Feel better now? Good. Now wipe the spittle out of the corner of your mouth and help these people. Donate something to the victims of Katrina besides your meaningless wrath. 'Cause God knows Mother Nature has given them plenty of it already.
You’ve shown problem with letting a mob get away with crime and now you’re shocked, shocked , that the mob mentality has escalated into further violence? Please, tell me you are not this stupid.
They’re shooting at people who are trying to “help.”
I’m convinced now, unless someone can offer compelling evidence to the contrary, that swarming the city with Guardsmen and instituting a shoot to kill after first warning policy, right away, would have saved thousands of lives, lives that will now clearly be lost.
We keep talking about the neccessity of feeding oneself and one’s family. I suspect that the looting and general disorder actually prevented orderly food distribution. That is, the looting will actually cause children and elderly to go hungry who otherwise would not have. 