Isn’t a flag a symbol of your country?
I hate my present government, but I don’t hate Holland.
I’d rather burn a large pic of Jan-Peter Balkenende and his silly men, than burn a piece of cloth with a long history.
I’m already working on my giant flag desecration speech. Since, as I understand it, it’s desecration that’s objectionable, not burning, I intend to do something like this: I’ll cut each stripe out of the flag, & hold it up to represent some historical horror perpetrated by the USA that’s far worse than trashing a mere piece of heraldry. Then I’ll cut each star out of the upper quarter, with a pithy comment about the place of each state in the Union.
That that person considers that the flag has been so desecrated by the law in question that it must be given a respectful funeral, as mandated by the Federal Flag Code, since it can no longer be flown without shame.
Never seen anyone burning a flag in person. But I see people disrespecting and IMHO symbolically desecrating the flag every day.
Slapping American flags on t-shirts and bandannas–oh yeah, that’s respectful. Use the flag to soak up your sweat.
Airbrushing it on your rear windshield because it looks cool, or putting it on your car antenna where it can get ripped off or blown off to fall in the gutter–oh, so respectful.
Funny how the people who do these things often support the flag desecration amendment.
Okay this is tricky:
On reflection, if you paint a “Nazi” swastika on the US Flag I would like the right to shoot you as a Nazi.
If you wear, even on your butt as shorts I can’t complain.
If you smear crap on it, the country should have the right to seize and dispose of it (Yes, I know disposal means burning) I also think a small fine should be applied to the person.
Now after this it gets much harder, what is the difference between a war hero or astronaut signing a flag for you or a protested painting Bush is killing the world through pro-pollution laws or even “America Sucks”. The last one is offensive to me, but as an American I would have to allow it. The first two seem fine to me.
I guess my answer is there are many shades of grays in this debate.
It’s hard to explain, I grew up learning at public school, in a progressive state, in a family that had left the Church that you are not allowed to desecrate the flag. I grew up very loyal to the concept of the USA. I served in the Navy because I believed in the country and knew I could go back to college after. The American experiment that seems to be taking hits on a yearly basis is worth defending. IMHO: Burning the Flag is much the same as burning the US government. It is an act of rebellion.
I live by the following quote that has been attributed to Ben Franklin.
“Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.”
I don’t believe we have ever had the Liberty to burn the Flag of the United States of America.
I don’t believe in the patriot act.
I do believe in a strong military & the Monroe Doctrine.
I have always felt burning the flag is an insult to all of us that have been willing to sacrifice our safety for those who stay home.
I felt both G.W. Bush & Clinton were unworthy to be Commanders in Chief and therefore unworthy to be President. Despite these feelings, Clinton was a surprisingly good President and Bush has been even worse than I feared.
Like most people there are holes in my beliefs. Reagan did not serve and he was a great Commander in Chief.
Wow what a rant. Sorry.
I really need to review my replies for Grammar and Punctuation.
I was trying to explain more about my beliefs and why I think it is already illegal to burn the flag.
Again, I am sorry for the long flow of thought rant.
Reading through this thread it appears that many are hung up on the idea that the proposed amendment is all about burning the flag. That;'s not right. It is a flag *desecration *issue. Here is the proposed language:
I realize that a lot of the respones are frivolous, but some seem to be seriously limiting themselves to the idea of flag burning.
I notice that there is another thread on what constitutes a flag (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=322698.
Maybe someone should open a thread about what constitutes desecration.
On The Daily Show, they suggested that the Republicans in favor of an anti-flag-burning amendment would want old flags to be kept alive on life support.
I agree. It’s the constitution that suffers, not the flag, if this amendment passes.
Burning a flag in protest of this amendment is like a 2-year old throwing a temper tantrum. I do think flag burning is a legitimate form of protest, but I wouldn’t do it unless I was protestesting some overarching policy that I found outrageously heinous.
Merchandising opportunity: Flame retardant flags used as a “wick” for a fuel supply contained in the handle, able to burn continuously without actually damaging the flag itself. Maybe a bit gimmicky for hand-held flag waving, but can you imagine how cool that would look on some huge corporate flagpole?
Then again, since you’re not actually desecrating the flag itself in that case, maybe the impact is lost?
I had a friend in college who delighted in learning to say obscenities in foreign languages. We’d be hanging out on campus playing pool, and he’d chirp up with some phrase in Japanese or Spanish or Salish or whatnot, and then translate for us in a goofy chirpy voice: “Hello, Miss, would you like a bite of my very tasty penis?” It was very juvenile but also quite funny.
Every now and then, though, he’d pipe up with one of these sayings while an exchange student from just the wrong country came through the pool room with laundry, and she’d whip around with an aghast look on her face. The look on such faces is one reason (among many) why I never followed his footsteps.
I feel the same way about burning the flag: it’s an obscenity in a language I don’t speak. Seeing an American flag burn affects me exactly as much as watching a cedar log burn, or watching a paper towel burn: it means nothing to me.
But I know that there are people with a different language from mine, to whom it’s a horrifying, gut-wrenching obscenity. It is out of respect for them, not out of respect for the flag, that I don’t burn it. I would only burn it if I lacked respect for all those who themselves respected the flag (if that makes sense).
But my college friend’s acts were, and should remain legal. Outlawing flagburning would be every bit as stupid as outlawing the Japanese for “Hello, Miss, would you like a bite of my very tasty penis?”
Daniel
Hold on. You’d shoot me, gun me down in cold blood, for doodling a symbol you find offensive on a piece of cloth that is my own personal property?
You’ve got to be fucking kidding me.
Respectfully, I’m really glad it’s merely your opinion.
Ok, fine. It’s insulting. But you’re talking about a military response to an insult. Thin-skinned much?
My America is more than a pretty cloth. My America is represented only in part by a pretty cloth. A pretty cloth does not–cannot!–hold the Constitution; the concept of inalienable and inherent liberties; the essential decency of mankind; the fundamental right, ability, and obligation for free people to govern themselves. To claim that burning a flag denies and lessens all that is America is to claim that all that is America is contained within a flag–and it simply is not.
Well said, brother. Well said.
Let’s try to focus on the positive side of all this. We’ve been hearing how “the terrorists” hate America because of our freedom. Maybe now that we’ve given up some of our freedom they’ll respond by hating us a little less.
Strikes me as funny that many of the politicians fighting against the provision are the same ones who were running around screaming that the world was coming to an end because a Koran (or Quran) was mishandled.
Not an attempt to highjack - but we need term limits for all politicians and judges now more than ever.
You want a good analogy, you find me a prison guard who, on-duty, burns the American flag in front of a US combat vet prisoner. Check out how those same politicians respond.
Daniel
I will not burn a flag in protest though I may burn an unservicable flag in a dignified manner per the flag code. I do not believe in desecration of the flag. I believe even more strongly in the first amendment that gives us the right to protest by burning the flag and I believe that making an exception to prohibit flag burning is a fascist move.
One of the things I am noticing here is a lot of use of the word “desecration”. I wonder what that signifies to people? To me (at least, and of course YMMV) it suggests that people think of the US Flag as a kind of holy or sacred icon. Which dos strike me as strange.
Now, I am a transplant to the US. Not born here, not a citizen, merely a resident who is married to a citizen. Perhaps my views don’t count. Interestingly I haev noticed that of the four nations I have lived in, this one would count as only third on my personal ‘freedom index’. This proposed amendment does nothing to help that image.
But a couple of questions have occured to me in this regard.
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Does this ‘anti-burning’ (I ask this of those who would not under any circumstance burn a US Flag) idea stretch to all national flags? If not, why not?
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Why is it held in such esteem?
To me, America is not a flag, not even a constitution. It is an idea. An idea that, I believe, has been sadly betrayed. But an idea nonetheless. To outlaw and act of protest which in itself is harmless to persons (and assuming you own the flag is also harmless to the property of others) seems to me to further betray those ideas and ideals.
Surely one has the right to offend with a protest? It strikes me that what is happening is an attempt to make a kind of heresy of this action. A heresy punishable by law - like an Inquisition. Like McCarthy. There has been a lot of talk about spreading democracy and freedom. Except it seems just like the spreading of Christianity done by Europeans in the New World some hundreds of years ago. Lovely stuff. I daresay destroying their icons was criminal as well.
If they pass this. Citizen or not, at risk of being tossed unceremoniously from the country, I will burn it. I may not be a citizen, but I care for the idea that was originally America.
Oh, please. Don’t we have enough strawmen being burned around here with your making up another one?
Flag burning is an immature and ineffective technique utilized by various hateful people across the globe. Having said that, I do not believe that any amendments prohibiting the burning of the flag should ever pass. On a similiar note, I also do not believe that the banning of any KKK groups or neo-Nazi groups or Nation of Islam groups would be an effective way of dealing with racists and bigots.
Flag burners should be out in the open, which makes it much easier to keep tabs on these rabid lunatics, some of which are a direct threat to the security of the United States. It is better to have the enemy out in the open, where they are able to flaunt their ignorance and stupidity for all to see.
The burning of flags, bibles, korans and any other similiar objects should not be made illegal.
People have the right to burn US flags, and I have the right to call some of these people fifth columnists, traitors and enemies of the USA.
