Again, they are increasing the risk to others if an accident - caused by the driver or not - occurs. This is not the pure randomness of rolling dice. They are CHOOSING to partake of an activity that is forbidden to non-licensed and non-insured drivers. It proves their poor judgement. No different than a drunk driver that thinks if they only drive on back roads means they can still get home safely.
This is a dumb analogy.
A better one would be:
Why are you in prison?
Because I stole a candy bar
No, you dumb fuck. You’re in prison because you stabbed the security guard who tried to apprehend you.
You just can’t seem to get this onto your head.
No one loses their license for decades as a result of a single moving violation. You have to combine that with decades of ignoring rules.
You know what’s really important in safe driving? Following rules.
Correlation != Causation
Causation = Causation
Dangerous drivers are people who have no regard for rules and horribly underestimate risks. Sound familiar?
This right here is why I would not have got in the car with the woman in the OP driving. The chances of all the other things described in this thread happening are very small indeed. The chances of something like this happening (because they were randomly pulled over) are much much higher. And (as I’m sure the guys partner in this story was) I would be feeling pretty crappy to see a friend go through that just because I had not insisted on driving.
Whether or not you thought they deserved it, the driver in this story was at the start of a long and unpleasant legal and beurucratic nightmare (hell just the cost of getting towed and impounded could cause serious financial hardship, nevermind the legal fees). I would rather not have my friend go through that, if all it takes is insisting on driving.
It took me four years to dig out of the financial hole the uninsured driver put me in and he never once even bothered to tell me he was sorry. I tend to think all uninsured drivers are uncaring assholes, so when this happened, I stood out in the open and grinned and watched while the whole thing was going down.
The man knew he was in a world of shit, he was openly blubbering when he got out of the truck. He knew he shouldn’t have been driving. The woman knew he was in trouble as well, but appeared more concerned about getting home.
They were from big city 60 miles away and it was a huge surprise for them to learn that they had crossed a county line and that truck and driver were going to their jails in two different small cities 30 miles in different directions that were not closer to their home base. To be precise, she needed to get back to Mesa, he was going to Camp Verde and the truck was going to Prescott Valley.
As is posted above by someone else, that is a silly analogy. It’s not a technical
The problem is that the woman’s story doesn’t add up, and without personally knowing her, people want to know more about the story. That’s reasonable, because the answer may not be cut and dried. People need to make judgment calls, and it’s more difficult without the benefit of knowing her in person.
The credibility of people telling stories is relevant. You have the advantage of knowing her personally, or perhaps your wife knows her better, but you have a better sense of knowing how trustworthy she is.
All we have is knowing that she doesn’t have a license, and on the face of it, she’s saying something which seems very doubtful. Hence, there are more questions such as how responsible is she? Does she have insurance, etc.?
Judgment calls about whether you would ride with an unlicensed driver? I haven’t seen many posts suggesting such subtlety - conditions when, yes, they would do so.
I don’t know that I consider her terribly trustworthy - but then again, I don’t know what that has to do with her driving ability.
I most likely wouldn’t break up a friendship over something like that – I have and have had friends who do other irresponsible stuff – but I would not drive with an unlicensed and uninsured driver.
On aggregate, this cite claims unlicensed drivers cause 20% of auto accidents, (and are involved in 18% of fatal car and truck accidents) while comprising 3% of the driving population, so some raised eyebrows in terms of safety are warrented, though this will depend on individual, circumstance, and why they lost their license to begin with.
This is much the same sort of thing I mentioned upthread.
Now, the fact that the friend has gone decades, unlicensed, without getting pulled over and, well, arrested, suggests that she IS driving carefully - and is on the “safer” side of the spectrum of unlicensed drivers. The risks should she be in an accident ANYWAY are substantial, as even careful drivers make mistakes or are simply unlucky. On paper, she’s riskier (hence my “objectively”, above). In reality, maybe not - except for the financial risks to her, her passengers, and others involved in any such “wrong place, wrong time” accident.
All that said: Is there a statute of limitations on a suspended license? As in, if it was suspended 20 years ago, could she just go in and apply for one anew versus trying to fix a 20-year-old situation? That might be a hell of a lot cheaper than trying to clear up a 20-year-old mess. Sure, as a “new” driver her insurance might be higher than, say, yours for all other factors being equal, but it’s a hell of a lot better than risking her entire family’s financial well-being as she is currently doing.
If you only wanted to get yes or no maybe you should have posted in the polls only thread. If given only the choice of yes or no I would pick no. If more nuanced discussion is allowed my answer would range from “probably not”’ to “hell no” depending on the circumstances around the loss of license and when she still doesn’t have one.
Never mind
This strikes me as similar to people who say, ‘our team made it to the championship match! Now they have a 50/50 chance of winning it all!’
That’s ignoring everything else that came before and just counting the possible outcomes as equally likely. Check with the Vegas bookmakers to see something more like the actual odds.
“Completing onerous paperwork” doesn’t happen in a vacuum. Something happened to make that onerous paperwork necessary, and then there’s the additional factor that the person didn’t face up to it and take care of it. Does the cohort of people with suspended licences contain some people who are good drivers? Sure, that’s very likely. But is that cohort made up of disproportionately more bad, irresponsible, and/or dangerous drivers? I would certainly think so. What do you think the Vegas odds would be on a person with a suspended license being a “bad driver” in some sense of that phrase?
It probably varies not only by state but also by circumstances - in my experience, dealers only care about insurance if they are going to handle the registration and plates. If I’m going to transfer plates/registration form a car I already own, the dealer doesn’t ask about insurance. And I’ve never had them ask to see a license except for a test drive ( in my case, that means they never see the license of the person whose name will be on the registration)
Bingo. Say I’m riding with an unlicensed driver and a tire blows because the tire buster added too much air. Now, the fault doesn’t belong to the driver per se, but because the unlicensed driver has no insurance, how do they cover the medical cost of my resulting injury. To me, it isn’t worth the risk.
What has happened to me an embarrassingly large number of times (as I’m a klutz, and orthopedic injuries are commoner than I’d like) is that my medical insurance covers me, but asks if pretty please isn’t there someone they can sue to recover the costs. So if my injuries were the result of a car accident, or some other kind of at-fault accident (neighbor didn’t de-ice the sidewalk, grocery store left a wet spot and I slipped, etc.) they could go after the at-fault party. If the accident were a car wreck that I was at fault for, they might even go after my car insurance, which carries a certain amount of medical coverage. I had always assumed that medical insurance would cover me, then seek reimbursement, but this article suggests it’s the opposite :(.
The tale in the linked article is horrifying for two reasons: firstly that the medical insurance doesn’t kick in first in this situation, and secondly the insane “rack rate” for the services rendered (which is something I’ve ranted about before). The services in question, I would bet, are negotiated down to an in-network rate of less than 2,000 bucks. The 11,000 is pure fiction. (rereading, it looks like they were negotiated to about 5K).
I don’t recall reading any responses where anyone said you should stop being friends with her. Almost everyone responded to your question of riding with her. Which you seem to agree with. Yet you keep getting in your craw that people want you to stop being friends with her.
It’s okay to set boundaries even within friendships.
Interesting post.
Within a couple of responses, someone called her an “irresponsible moron with delusions of entitlement.” Not saying to stop being friends, but I interpret it as questioning my judgment in friends. Shortly thereafter, a couple of people said they would report her to the DMV (which I’m sure would do great things for an ongoing friendship!). 
And at least one person said something along the lines that they would seriously consider ending their friendship. Admittedly, none of those specifically states that I “should stop being friends with her.”
I apologize, this has been a long thread, and I do not recall everything I wrote in it. Would you kindly point out the instances where I “keep getting in [my] craw that people want [me] to stop being friends with her”? Thanks.
Well I’ll toe that line.
I think part of the problem is that to answer the thread title in the abstract, I’d say yes – I’m not going to quiz people when I get in their car or ask to see their license, and if I’m hopping in with someone who casually mentions that they’re driving on a suspended license I’m not going to make a big deal about it.
It’s a different question if I’d regularly ride with an unlicensed driver, and the problem is that it’s hard for me to imagine a scenario where I’d be put in that position. Because, as you hint at, it’s difficult for me to imagine being friends with someone who lost their license for failure to pay a traffic ticket that they’re vague about and then just didn’t do anything about it for 10+ years. Like, is this person an adult? What do we have in common? It’s just so strange.
Taking the statements at face value, I think a few people have been suggesting that in your shoes, they’d report the friend to the DMV or other authorities for their own good and for that of other drivers who could be at a loss due to said friends irresponsible behavior.
Yes, we have at least one poster who has some (justified) anger because of their own personal losses due to other uninsured motorists, but I find it fully understandable.
Others are questioning your judgement because your friend’s story seems to be paper thin, and wonder at the apparent contradiction between your acknowledging the risk (this whole thread) when combined with an apparent unwillingness to try to intervene. It makes you look cavalier about the risks to others as long as you are protecting yourself and your own.
Now, I can turn that around, and point out from another POV that you’re truly loyal to said friend, in that you’re choosing to not question them, or to push them in ways they may be uncomfortable with to fix said situation. Which makes you a really, really good friend (at least in terms of caring about their feelings), but one that is putting that friend’s short term happiness way ahead of their long term risks from their behavior and the possible dangers they pose to your community.
To all of us semi-strangers on the internet though, we see all the risk, and have no emotional investment in the friend - and thus we’re almost all coming down on the side of protecting the community and your friend from the risks they are taking.
We’ve known this couple for 25-30 years. We are all in our 60s-70s, and all financially comfortable (tho far from stupid rich.) They have been pretty much our best friends for much of that time. We do not have a ton of close friends. This moving violation (or whatever) occurred several years into our friendship/acquaintance. We learned she did not have a license only relatively recently.
With these friends - and many many other people I’ve been friends with or socialized with - it is not unusual to hear someone say something that “doesn’t add up.” I have to choose whether or not to ask questions, and then if the questions do not get sufficient answers, I have to decide how hard I’ll press it or whether I should drop it. Then, if I still have doubts, I have to decide if I can still remain friends with the person in SOME respects, despite this uncertainty/disagreement/whatever in ONE respect. Or is this one thing SO BAD it taints the entire relationship, or indicates some intolerable character flaw.
Over the decades, these people have made what I consider ENORMOUS missteps in their marriage, his career, their finances… And we have continually reassessed the extent to which we wished to remain how close of friends with them. So that is one reason I considered the specifics of the original incident, the losing of the license, and the steps needed to get it back somewhat irrelevant. For me, it is sufficient to resolve the question, “Do I or don’t I get into the car with her driving?” I can understand how someone who has not been in the relationship for 25-30 years might have different questions than I. Or might question my weighing of whatever factors.
If she is effectively your wife’s BFF I would be more inclined to try and help her fix it. (But of course you can’t be too pushy, because the primary goal would be to retain the friendship.)
Financially comfortable but far from stupid rich…maybe she could consult a lawyer to help her navigate getting this resolved? I only say that if you think there is a (hopefully very small) chance of there being a bench warrant or something similar.
My impression from the peanut gallery is that she originally blew it off from a combination of laziness and irresponsibility, but as the years have gone on I bet the reason she doesn’t try and resolve it now is almost exclusively fear. You can overcome fear with allies, like your wife helping her get it sorted or even a lawyer.