>>Why do you have to knock the other guy’s choices in order to enjoy your own?<<
Sam, if that is for me, you are wrong. Go back and read my posts. FOR the LAST TIME!
I just go off when the import guys with high dollar state of the art modern cars act holier than thou - picking on way old cheap muscle cars.
I may have even beat you on my first post to the thread where I basically said to each his own.
Blown %Injected- The problem is, when you make comments about how “When them cheap old dinosaurs are constantly challenged by the young state of the art expensive cars, and those cars just can’t seem to keep up - well, no insecurity here” you end up sounding like a vehicular elitist.
I’ve said it before, there are lots and lots of import cars that will keep up with your car.
Personally, my roomies car might do it… I don’t know for sure. But he wouldn’t race you on the street, because a cop would pull him over and let you go. It’s not worth the money, or the risk.
Also, I hereby nominate Fiestymongol for the Official Fucktarded Racist award.
Hm. Let’s look up this car.
So, 20k for the standard, in 1980, 30 for the GNX. Let’s follow the GNX…
http://home.att.net/~buickGNX/GNX/
http://www.car-videos.com/performance/view.asp?id1=13&id2=3
(WRX-Grand National GNX. This is the standard, 24k(2003) vs 30k (1987) comparison. Wonder what the STi will look like.
I do like this page, the gentleman is honest.
http://home.att.net/~buickGNX/GNX/perf.htm
Calling the GNX a production car is probably a stretch. “Limited production car” would be more fair. It was jointly designed, (primarily) assembled, sold, and warranteed by Buick. Only the enhancement modifications were warranteed by ASC/McLaren
and
"…I can fill in a little on the comments you made about testing of prototypes vs. production cars. …the prototypes generally are tweaked. Even full-run production cars have prototypes for the press that often have different chips, engines built to close tolerances, etc.
So, the stats in the magazines aren’t that accurate. Still, we can live with them. So, this is a fully raced out car from the start. What kind of modifications can you do to make it better? What can you do to a civic that matches or beats it? Where does this holy grail fall down?
After careful consideration, I have found a more appropriate comparison to the GNX.
http://www.car-videos.com/performance/view.asp?ID1=13&ID2=179
Makes the old car look a bit sad. Or the ‘modern’ car look a bit good. I’m wondering how the factory engine is holding up on the GNX, too. It had a very high powered turbo in it, for its day and age. They should be exploding by now.
So. GNX: Different weight class. Pre-aftermarketed car. But with a citeable superior, the street SVT Cobra. Anyone got stats on an import that can beat a SVT Cobra off the line?
And B&I, what about the superior performance of the jet and rocket powered funnycars in the quarter mile? Doesn’t that make them the best?
B&I
To you $45k may not seem like much, but in the UK that money would turn into around £30-£35k
That would get you a very wide choice of car, and if you include used cars you could get pretty much anything you want, that would include Jaguars up to 6litres, the Lotus elise, any number of fast Beemers and Mercs, Integrales of various guises, and pretty much all Japanese sports metal excepting perhaps the NSX.
So why would any of us here want to buy a 10mpg dinasaur with handling that sways like an overloaded fifteen storey blancmange pudding on a bad San Francisco earthquake day in a high wind, when you would have to put a hinge in the middle of your US dinasaur just to get it around our corners, you would have to start your journey to work two days early just to find two European sized car parking spots in line with each other to park the damn thing up, and all in a country where gas is over $5 a gallon.
The reason that US cars do not sell here, or in Europe is that this is just not a sensible environment for them.
We do not have tariffs on any other foreign cars and they come in by the boatload, and if US cars were good enough and cheap enough they would too.
If you cut the price of your dinasaur by half, it would only get bought by a few omnibus companies who would rip out the interior to replace with some bench seats, and it would still handle like a bus too.
When did the US make a car that sold in the millions around the world like say, the Toyota Corrolla ?
It is not for lack of trying, the Neon is sold here but we don’t buy it
nor just about everything else except for the Jeep Cherokee.
The reason those kids take their styling cues from ‘ricers’ is easy, these are the best handling and best selling vehicles around, and the cars they try to emulate are the special editions of those.
As a car market the US is immense, but only in the US so I guess there should be no surprise that a few kids get criticised for looking beyond your own shores for ideas, because frankly your manufacturers are incapable of generating the ideas that will appeal across the world.
Actually, Dave, the newer Vettes are really amazing vehicles. And they appear to have actually shrunk slightly in the last model.
I can tell you that Mercedes does, in fact, use them for comparison against their C class, and they’ve got good reason to. It’s still a very american car, but it’s not crap.
American cars, between 1972, say, and 1986, were crap. With the introduction of the Ford Taurus, everything changed. Now, clearly, you havn’t thought very much about your bile-laded post, but perhaps you should. After all, it’s not like british cars have all the high marks, themselves.
Ever hear of the Prince of Darkness? If you can’t name that company, you probably don’t know enough about cars to even be in this thread.
Even though American cars are so much better than they were, they still do not sell here in any large numbers.
The US car industry has tried to address this by employng CEO’s from European companies and mergers, with varying results.
US companies have, however, bought various European manufacturers that were underinvested and some of these are doing rather well, Jaguar, SAAB f’rinstance.
So there is no reason that US cars shouldn’t sell here, except that US designs do not export well.
I have seen US cars that are near straight copies of the slightly sportier Volvos(another US purchase doing much better these days).
US domestic design seems to be stuck for ideas, thew Ford Scorpio was apparently a very US influenced object, with a face that only Vanessa Feltz’s mother could love, it was not surprising that these didn’t sell well.
When it comes to a choice between a ‘Vette’ and a C-class there is likely to be only one winner in Europe, and probably the US too, except for the price.
US companies are working cosely with European companies to learn lessons and this is a two way thing, but when it comes to driveability, the US and Euro ideals seem to be anathema to each other.
In answer to your question, Lucas!
…and when fitted to old Brit motorcycles, nothing could be more true!
Which reminds me, the US takeover of Ducati was one of the best things to happen to the motorcycle industry, we all knew what was wrong with their machines, and the fixes were relativley easy, but it took the energy and innovation of US management to make it all happen(things like crap alternators especially, dodgy finish too, valve train that was under-developed - overcomplex -overengineered and way too fussy to set up correctly)
So yes the US motor industry can make it happen, but it seems to lack creativity.
Much better! Yes, it’s entirely attitude. The Vette is one of the most American cars I can think of. It might do better overseas, were it not for that. However, I hear the Focus doesn’t do badly as an Opel over there.
However, the Jaguar is entirely a Ford these days, and in all the good ways. It has managed to retain the spirit of the british car, but without the flaws. Of course, the best things always happen when people work together. Like the ol’ Cobra.
How does Opel do over there? It’s true that the larger and more distinctive cars from our manufacturers don’t sell, but really, that’s understandable. “Americans think a hundred years is a long time. Brits think a hundred miles is a long distance.” It’s all about size. And I’m not just talking about country size, but road size. They’re tiny over there.
Behold, the SRT-4 Neon from Dodge. I like this car, BTW. Cheap + fast = winner in my book.
Personally, I like the fast ricemobiles. NOS, suspension, exhaust, turbo, whatever.
BUT, when some winged and coffee canned exhaust Civic flys by while I am hauling the groceries home from the store - in a freaking school zone - I have to say I agree with the OP.
Yes, I mentioned the SRT-4 over in the companion thread:
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=154342&perpage=50&pagenumber=1
I don’t know. It bothers me for some reason.
I like the following: Torque, 245 from 3200-4200. Unlike, say, the S2000 you may be able to launch the car without burning up a clutch.
Not running to the Dodge dealer or anything. I just think it is the first domestic sport-compact (other than the Focus) which will get much attention. Some Sunfires, Z24s, whatever, excluded.
Car and Driver wrung a mid-fives out of one SRT-4 0-60. That’s about as fast as a new Mustang GT. You might be able to nip one with an automatic transmission. Mustang with an automatic… grumble, grumble. You think the Neon bothers you. Performance cars with automatics bother me. Dammit, unless it is a paddle-shifted six-speed, I’m not interested!
Those Jags would barely run until Ford engineering entered the picture, and the rest of those cars are nothing that any performance enthusiast would seriously consider. Of course we only pay $1.50 per gallon for 94 octane, and yeah we know how to pave a road over here.
The GNX!?!?! Nice comparison - for what???. That is a collector car that costs so much because only 542 were ever made, why not go back and look at the 86/87 Regal T-Type ($14,000 new). It basically has the same engine as the 35th anniversary (I think) Trans Am, the Grand National, and the GMC Typhoon and Cyclone. There are some differences, but basically the same. And as for them blowing up - as I have already said, I have seen dozens of them at the track with six figure mileage that are running at the 400 to 600 HP level.
Okay! So we’re comparing the stock Grand National to a modern car. So, talk to me. What can you do to it that makes it get a thousand horsepower? C’mon.
lets talk about torque! that is what a dyno really measures.
The import HP figures use an equasion that offers numbers that just do not seem to add up when the car hits the track.
I’ve been talking about torque, and I’ve put cites down, in this thread and the Import Racer thread, babe. You’re the one saying a thousand horse without swapping the engine or doing hard labor. I’ve even given you places to go for cites.
Lay it on me. Remember, it’s not just torque, it’s torque and mass.
Here’s another sedan that spanks a GNX pretty hard: http://www.car-videos.com/performance/view.asp?ID1=13&ID2=45
Those are about the same numbers the STi will come up with.
But I’m not knocking the GNX. That was, after all, 15 years ago. It was an absolutely amazing car for its time, and still one of the fastest sedans today. But technology marches on, and today there are a handful of sedans that are just as fast or almost so like the Neon, the WRX, and the Lancer Evo, but they also handle better and get better gas mileage. And in the case of two of them they also manage to shoehorn AWD into the package.
Since you just want to argue, no more politeness, after all, this is the pit.
I just looked at Sam’s last link, the other links did not work for me.
That site said in theory. I have seen 3 or 4 GNX’s run at the track, they were all totally stock, and they all ran about 13.40 @ 104 MPH, I believe the chump that put those theoretical numbers together got the two car mixed-up. And the Lancer is an ugly, tiny, uncomfortable…I would never have gotten my license if that was the only thing available to drive.
BTW, where are the 1000 HP cars you were talking about? No mention of torque - did you see the constant in the equation that is used? 5252. HP measures over 5252 rpm’s are inflated by use of this equation.
Of all the WRX’s at the track, the stock one’s are running mid 14’s - what happened???
For the XXX time, real tough guy’s, state of the art vs more than 15 year old technology; the OP was right, ricers are pests.
AND they are a bunch of cry babies. Whenever they get spanked, it is always: but my roommate would, or what about the_______, or yeah but you have two more cil-in-das.
I’ll change my mind when I see them actually going faster AT THE TRACK, not just in numbers written on the internet.
My open inventation is here and waiting - you name the time and I’ll name the place!
Subaru just announced the American-spec 2004 STi. I think it’s safe to say this is, without a doubt, the baddest sedan ever sold in the United States:
That’s conservative. Subaru has been running this same engine at well over 400HP in rally events. But even stock, this is 300hp and 300 ft-lbs of torque in a 3000 lb car, and AWD that puts that power right onto the pavement at all times. That last, by the way, makes all the difference in the world. The reason a stock WRX can do 5.4 seconds 0-60 is because it launches fast. A car like a GNX that can do 14 seconds on the track will have a harder time doing that in typical road conditions. It’ll be too hot, or too cold, or the surface will be rough and dirty, and the tires will on average be half worn out. And it takes a good driver to get good times out of a car that is traction limited.
In a WRX, you just rev up to 4000-5000, and drop the clutch. The car just GOES. Neck-snapping acceleration. If you’re good with a clutch, you won’t hurt the tranny, although the clutch might not thank you. Do it wrong, and you can wreck your transmission in a dozen or so launches. That’s why you probably see WRX’s running a little slower than they can - the drivers are either afraid to drive them hard, or intentionally back off to go easy on the car.
But I’m guessing that 300HP Sti will be running low 13 second quarters, and probably has a 0-60 time of 4.6-4.7. That’s fast. It may be the fastest sedan ever sold, other than some exotic European hardware.
That sounds like a blast. Another car that surprised me in a similar was was VW’s diesel. I think it was a Passat. Thing drove like a V-8, and quiet. And ridiculously good mileage.
Indeed. Which is mainly my point about the all the hopped up civics out there. But more so.
Give it a few years. There will be plenty around, and the aftermarket will be stronger.
Methinks he is the exception, rather than the rule.
Just don’t laugh at me when I finally get the hydraulics on my 68 Caddie convertible. Or at least turn your back first!
Best,
Dev
Yeah but do not do it. Why? Ask the service rep at the dealer. They will tell you that the first gear breaks in these cars AND that the new car warrentee will not cover this type of failure because it is called abuse due to hard starts.
