(bolding mine)
The longest sentence in France is life with 30 years without parole, not 30 years.
In practice, though, the longest sentence served recently was something like 42 years. A “life sentence” is typically in the 20-35 years range, I think.
Do you always get a life sentence for murder in France?
I know nothing about Norweigan law… but how would a parole board even be involved? He serves his 21 years, and then is free, yes?
He was sentenced to 21 years before his first parole hearing. Thats how detention works. From just a few posts up:
It’s not a standard at all, it’s a thought experiment.
My point was that, all other things being equal, increasing the efficiency of the police is much more of a deterrent to crime than lenghtening prison sentences, making prison harsher or even hanging folks.
Of course, it also requires more money, effort and forethought, and it’s almost impossible to encapsulate in 10 words or less, so it’s not quite as popular among politicians 
No, it’s not.
No it hasn’t. Or at least, no we can not assert this for true.
In that same time frame, the average standard or living has risen, overt racism & persecution have decreased, crime-fighting has become a lot more efficient, the realities of crime have been more starkly portrayed in media and entertainment etc…
Society has changed in a million and one ways. It’s simplistic and facile to discount all of this and assert “duh, more prison less problems”.
Who said it played *no *part ?
shrug. There’s not really any such thing as “justice”, not objectively anyway. We do the best we can, hope it’s good enough and toddle on.
Do they, now ? And you say this based on lengthy conversations with them, I’m sure ?
Well, easier access to abortion comes to mind.
He has been sentenced to forvaring (lit: detention or custody, meaning “safe keeping”, most accurately retention) which is an extra step on top of a prison sentence. A prison sentence here is a maximum amount of time that must be served, less other crimes are discovered, subject to reduction as necessary or as deserved. A sentence to forvaring is a judicial extra step for cases with an extraordinary level of risk for recidivism to “high” crime. (Murder, arson, violent rape and deliberate disfigurement, usually.)
Essentially, every five years starting after at least 10 years, at most 21, the regional government where he is kept convenes a parole board. The board gives their recommendation to the prosecuting authority, in this case the State, which must unconditionally accept their verdict for parole to be granted. Needless to say, the burden of evidence of rehabilitation in this case would be gargantuan and the prosecuting authority has the right of absolute veto.
This is an uneasy compromise between the Norwegian society’s belief that punishment in excess of 21 years in prison has no effect on either society or the punished, and society’s fear of recidivism after release.
So in the year 2032, 2037, 2042, etc, a perfect constellation of mysterious drug-induced lunacy in the lawyers of both the local government and the state’s prosecution could result in Breivik being given parole under massive supervision. As a society, we’re OK with that risk, at present.
I’m interested that you said prosecuting authority. What other prosecuting authorities are there other than the state in Norway?
Which is hardly unsurprising, since the maximum sentence the Norwegian legal system can hand out, is 21 years of preventive detention, with the option of prolonging the sentence every five years after that.
You’d pretty much have to be a psychic to be able to guarantee what will happen 21 years from now. We don’t have many psychics over here, and AFAIK none of them hold any position of power.
As has been explained to you a few times now: We don’t have life without parole here
No, there is not. See above point.
In your opinion. In our opinion, a life-without-parole sentence belongs to a system more focused towards retribution than towards rehabilitation. We believe rehabilitation is more important than retribution, and there are some data - like Norway’s recidivism rate - indicating that we’re right and you’re wrong.
I believe that this point has been covered more than once upthread. To reiterate: He wasn’t sentenced to prison. He was sentenced to preventive detention. If you get 21 years of prison, you serve your 21 years and then are free. If you get 21 years of preventive detention, you serve your 21 yeras, after which a board evaluates whether or not you’re a danger to society. If you are, you get another five. Five years down the road, a board evaluates… Lather, rinse, repeat.
The Norwegian Wikipedia entry on preventive detention/“forvaring” is fairly informative. It’s in Norwegian, tho’…
Correction: “Which is quite unsurprising”.
Note to self: Proofread, dammit!
I might be an idiot, but I believe desire for revenge is a valid human feeling and satisfying it at the expense of a murderer doesn’t bother me. That applies to the victim’s families, to bystanders or even to the victim himself (I like to think that if I were murdered in cold blood, the culprit would be harshly sentenced. Same if the victim actually survived as a quadraplegic, as it happened in a recent killing spree over here). I also like it when people are punished for cheating on exams or for speeding on the road, for that matter.
I also might be a primitive, but I’m a primitive leftist. Also, Breivik doesn’t look very black to me. In fact, racism and xenophobia were his motivations.
Nope. Did I misunderstand the meaning of the post I was responding to?
Hijack, but I kept IKEA folding chairs for 20+ years (hmm…as long as Breivik sentence). When they finally did break, I used up three pairs of non-IKEA ones in maybe one year and a half. Those were breaking as soon as I thought about seating on them.
I also remember noticing those IKEA chairs were also made in Soviet Union, showing that this country didn’t produce only crap.
He was pooh poohing the justice system & prison establishment in the US, which does have a fairly well established racial bias.
:dubious: “Decorator drapes”? It has a simple panel curtain, the kind that can be quickly sewn in large quantities by someone who isn’t very good at sewing - quite possibly somebody in one of the prison workshops. And the pattern looks almost exactly like the ugly curtains we used to have in the one classroom at my school, the ones both the kids and the teachers were so glad to see go because they were really, really loud. Heck, maybe they are the same fabric, sold to government institutions in big lots for cheap because no one else wanted it and it was just lying around the warehouse.
I don’t know if Breivik’s cell has a curtain - they might have gone for an external venetian blind, a common institutional solution here in Troll Country. It would make sense, since the fewer items he can get loose, the fewer items he can figure out how to use as weapons. But this far north, clearly some sort of window covering is reasonable if you want the prisoner to get some sleep in the summertime.
My point wasn’t that the conditions Breivik will be held in are horrible - they’re not, and IMO they should not be. My point was that they are not “luxurious” or “hotel-like”, either. College dorm-like is a much more accurate description. Similarly, having to eat in his room because taking him to the cafeteria to eat is too much of a security risk? That’s not what “room service” means, even if some less respectable tabloids have called it that.
Breivik will be treated, as far as possible, like any other prisoner in Norway - neither better nor worse.
Exactly.
One of the fundamental cornerstones of our system is that we don’t grade human rights. We don’t allow certain crimes to be declared so heinous that we’re allowed to deprive the criminals of their basic human rights and dignity. Not even mass murder.
IMO, this is a necessary principle behind a system that puts rehabilitation above retribution. If we don’t uphold that principle, we’ll find ourselves on a very slippery slope towards a less humanitarian judicial system. That even a monster like Breivik is treated according to the same standards as all other criminals is the litmus test of that system.
We don’t treat Breivik humanely because we feel sorry for him. We treat Breivik humanely for our own sake, to keep our own humanity.
You don’t rehabilitate mass-murderers. You either eradicate them completely or keep them securely imprisoned for the rest of their lives. And bringing basic human rights into it is rather pointless. Freedom is one of the most basic rights of all, we have no qualms about depriving criminals of that one, how are other rights so different?
I wonder if any of you ever took the time to read Breivik’s ‘European Declaration of Independence’? It clearly states Breivik’s views have nothing to do with Nationalism, has nothing to do with what people like me believe ( I am a proud White Aryan man) and stand for, is clearly the work of a sociopath and a hardened Christian Zionist, Breivik’s indiscriminate killing of a group of young teenagers, including whites, should make that crystal clear to people.
Breivik’s actions have now stigmatized the very legitimate immigration concerns of a lot of Norwegians. Now, being anti-immigration (which was rising in support before the incident) is equated with being pro mass-murder. This is the same method that is used against any German citizens who speak out against immigration in their country and get branded ‘Nazi’s’.
The only thing Breivik has done is made it harder for Norwegians to keep their country Norwegian.
Well aren’t you precious.