Thank you for the fireball explanation, Miller.
And I see what you are saying about the guard. There is a fine line between “asking for it” and what I would call “deserving it.” He was definitely asking for it.
Thank you for the fireball explanation, Miller.
And I see what you are saying about the guard. There is a fine line between “asking for it” and what I would call “deserving it.” He was definitely asking for it.
**
The guy soldier attacking Logan in the kitchen had already drawn a knife and cut him across the head before he saw any sign of a claw. I don’t remember the soldiers shouting anything about having a warrant nor do I think it is legal to use the military directly against citizens of the United States.
Marc
I was another person who did not see THAT coming. I grew up with the Ninja Turtle school of violence in which “I have this sword, but instead of stabbing you with it, I’ll cut this rope which will cause that sandbag to fall on your head, rendering you unconcious.” It was both disturbing and satisfying to see deadly weapons used as they were intended.
But why I really like this scene is because of the moral ambiguity. I DO think Wolverine is a murderer, here. We’ve got a situation where “good guys” are doing bad things to survive. And then we’ve got “bad guys” with understandable motivations. Everything is shades of grey. I like it, and hope more movies will take this direction.
And MGibson, I don’t think Wolverine’s a citizen of the United States. As far as I know, he’s Canadian.
In movie continuity we have no indication that he has any connection to Canada. I would say that the evidence suggests otherwise, as we are told that the secret military program that coated his skeleton with adamantium was a US military operation, contradicting canon continuity that had him hailing from Canada.
Either way, did you see those stormtroopers asking for his papers? Me neither.
Wolverine carries Canadian dogtags. According to moviemistakes.com: X-Men:
*Credit to the film makers for giving Wolverine a Canadian Dog Tag to wear (as opposed to the multiple tags as worn by U.S. soldiers). Unfortunately, Wolverine is wearing the bottom half of a broken Canadian Dog Tag which has been engraved upside down. A Canadian dog tag is one piece with two halves designed to be broken in half on a horizontal score across its centre. The top half has two holes (one in each corner) for the chain to pass through and remains with a deceased soldier. The bottom half, which is not attached to a chain, although it has a long slot centred at the bottom, is returned for registration. Wolverine wears the bottom half of a Canadian Dog tag, the half which would be removed or lost when the tag is broken (this is easily identified by the long slot at the bottom, which the way he wears it is at the top where he has the chain passing through it). Even if Wolverine had somehow lost the top of his dog tag and kept the bottom, the name engraved would be upside down when he has it hanging from the bottom slot. Also, a Canadian dog tag is not worn on a small chain hanging from the neck chain - they hang directly from the neck chain. The dog tag should also say CDN FORCES CDN under his name (if it was printed right side up in the first place). Another interesting bit of trivia about this…his Dog Tag has a Social Insurance Number as opposed to a Service Number - which indicates he served prior to the re - introduction of service numbers in 1991. Also, since his Social Insurance Number begins with the number 4, we know he was born in the province of Ontario. Good effort on detail, if not 100% right on all counts. *
.:Nichol:.
I always thought of him more as an anti-hero, myself, the guy with a personal sense of integrity and honour but who also despises/distrusts authority. When he goes blood-wading through a bunch of government thugs, we cheer because they’ve been portrayed as more evil than Wolverine himself. Had Wolvie slaughtered a bunch of innocent Statue of Liberty workers/guards in the first movie (as Toad and Sabretooth did), then he certainly wouldn’t qualify as a hero or anti-hero, but just a psycho.
In any event, I prefer this violent film version to the bloodless cartoon version in which Wolvie talks the talk, but never actually manages to slice anyone, or at least not anyone made of flesh and blood.
Re: his dogtags. I’m glad they’re more-or-less Canadian-style (like my own), but if the Alkali Lake facility was in Canada, the sign out front should have read “Department of National Defense”, not “Department of Defense”.
Something I’d like to note…
The helo’s that the guys raiding the mansion used were Hueys, UH-1’s. Which, I believe, the U.S. military doesn’t even use anymore.
That, combined with the fact that the trooper in the kitchen was using an MP-5 that still had a full-auto setting, leads me to suggest another possibility: The troopers weren’t even government agents…they were Mercs.
From my perspective:
Were the soldiers just doing their jobs? Yeah, whatever exactly their orders were (and whoever exactly they were). The thing is that, had they succeeded, those kids were in for who knows what kind of terrible experiments, torture, and death. They had to be protected, and Wolverine did that. Going berserk is in his nature, though I don’t think he did anything untoward (he escaped once he’d saved everyone he could, he probably could’ve taken out more of them if he’d wanted). Regrettable and very violent situation, but I wouldn’t call him a murderer because of it.
Wolverine is just an animal. He may have forgotten all about his past, but people never change. You’re still an animal Wolverine!
He did it because there was no beer in the entire damn house and he had to settle for soda.
I view Wolverine as a character who goes by the rule “The means justifies the ends”.
Was it right for him to protect the children? Most definitely yes. was it right for him to go postal on the soliders? Nope. But I agree with the other posters who say that Wolverine was simply doing his job the way he knew best. He used the only tools that were available to him.
Besides, what good are pointy claws if you don’t use 'em?
Well, spoilers are out of the bag, but I’ll use the tag, anyway (just feels less…mean to me. ::Shrug:: )…
When I saw the thread title, I thought this was about the end, where he leaves Stryker to die. That, unlike the rage during the raid on the mansion (which I feel to be totally justified, but more on that in a bit) was done, if not unemotionally, at least not at the height of an adreniline rush, and was to punish Stryker for his crimes, rather than to protect the mansion and the children. I also thought it was kind of…off that he carried Artie with him to look at/taunt/murder Stryker.
As to the raid on the mansion. As has been said, while he might have gone past the point of NECCESSARY force, he didn’t really go past the point of justifiable force, considering that a band of unknown armed individuals was raiding the mansion and kidnapping or killing children.
Also, IMO the raid went well past the point that the President authorised. Stryker seemed to know this, and didn’t invoke the President, the US government, or any other agency in the raid.
What about the other X Men not saving Jason at the end? He was being used by his father, he wasn’t evil. And they just left him to die? That’s cold…
I think, in the end, letting Jason die was a mercy killing.
He was near mindless, at the thrall of his (now dead) father. If he’d survived, knowing his father had failed…he may have done his best to kill himself/get himself killed.
I don’t think so. How would he even know his father failed, considering that he was so easily convinced to do the exact opposite of the original plan. Mystique could have just morphed into his father, and told him to get better because everything was fine. It seems like Xavier could have helped him, and I was surprised they didn’t save him.
In another thread I speculated Jason Stryker was left to die because of one of these reasons:
Nightcrawler was too tired to 'port him out.
It was deemed too dangerous to go back into that collapsing room.
They thought it’d be kinder to let him die.
Morally, #2 would be easiest to handle. I have a sneaking suspicion #3 is probably correct, though.
.:Nichol:.
Probably a mercy killing.
But we also have to remember that this is the boy who made his own mother put a drill to her head - probably not someone you’d really want hanging around.
Another thing to take into consideration: Jason was apparently a borderline psychopath (as per Cataclysm’s point about what he did to his mom) with massive psychic ablities and a partial lobotomy. In other words, he’s not exactly what you’d call stable. The last thing you want is for him to start using his powers on you while you’re trying to escape the fifty foot wall of water that’s bearing down on you.
On top of that, you’d have to lug his wheelchair/life support apparatus with you through a crumbling dam and across uneven and unknown terrain, and the X-Men are responsible for saving all those mutant kids who got kidnapped, and what kind of life could the poor sap have ahead of him anyway…
Leaving him behind was probably the smart move.
doh :smack:
I just realised that I typed “the means justifies the ends” above.
What I meant to write was “the end justifies the means”
hangs head in shame
That’s too bad, I was having fun trying to figure out what it meant if the means justify the end.