pldennison,
The folks in my town won’t let us put them on the street, even if we DO pay for them. They’re apparently more unsightly than the cigarette butts. They also seem to have a problem with trash cans, although there are a couple of them in a four block area.
Hmmmm . . . . .I smell a logic trap here, but what the hell, I’ll take the bait, even though this has ZERO to do with throwing cigarette butts out of cars.
You get germs involuntarily.
Biochemical disorders are not the persons fault.
Now what I sense here is you are going to produce proof that people are more biologically predisposed towards addiction than others, and certainly that is true.
Some people are also more biologically predisposed to murder as well, but they don’t kill people. They made the choice to not do so. (and I’ll never forgive you for making me resort to that cliche! 
)Just as someone makes a decision to decide to not smoke, drink or take drugs.
The “addiction is a disease” classification is the biggest, most bleeding heart liberal and boneheaded statements ever, ever produced by the medical community. And it’s a statement where someone is trying to be cute, trying to challenge our preconceived notions of what a disease is, which os okay, except this is a bold faced fraud. The “addiction disease” argument is the bastard offshoot of the 70s “I’m okay, your okay” attitude that still found it’s way into the 80s and 90s.
How you can classify a drug addict, a smoker or a drunk to someone suffering from diabetes or even the common cold is absolutely the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard, and I am appalled.
In addition, I understand that alcoholism can lead to liver disease, smoking to lung cancer, and excessive masturbation to prostate problems. Let’s seperate the disease from the cause, and in the meantime take responsibilty for our actions, not excusing them by saying our coffee binging is a “disease”.
All (and many other similar sentiments) true, of course. But it’s still fucking hilarious.
In that case, that’s pretty stupid. If smokers are willing to buy the damned things, the town should let them put them out there.
Scylla, did you have a point, or do you just like comparing entirely dissimilar things?
You’re probably right on both counts.
What do you all think about business putting an ashtray outside the front door? There are many times when walking into an establishment I am finishing up a smoke. I usually use the field-strip-and-find-a-garbage-can-once-I’m-inside method, but many people don’t (and I don’t every single time). I think just about everywhere should put ashtrays, or at least a trash can outside. Yes, I understand this adds cost. But they shouldn’t be surprised to see butts everywhere if they don’t.
i just want to say that i do not hate smokers. there are plenty of inconsiderate smokers in the world, but smoking in and of itself is not inconsiderate. it’s a habit. a nasty habit that i personally would never indulge in, but one that doesn’t affect me as long as those around me who do smoke are considerate people. that does mean not smoking close to me (i’m pregnant, thank you) or my best friend (she is severely allergic, but always tries to be polite asking others to not smoke around her.)
littering, on the other hand, is inconsiderate by nature. i mentioned walking down westheimer here in houston and seeing all of the cigarette butts littering the street. we also have empty food/drink containers, gum wrappers, empty cigarette packs, receipts and more strewn everywhere. and there are trashcans available. i think there’s one at every corner where westheimer meets montrose.
i think the worst example of littering i’ve seen in a very long time was right after the gay pride parade. i had to wade through garbage several inches deep to walk to the grocery, and the city had to clean it up. disgusting.
i guess i never had to think about it, being a non-smoker, but i though most places did have ashtrays outside the door.
PLD:
Of course I have a point.
Ashtrays on the street would benefit both smokers and nonsmokers. Smoking isn’t madatory any more than drinking a soda is, yet we still provide trash cans to soda drinkers. By what right are smokers excluded from consideration?
Consideration is given to people with a wide range of preferences and habits by local governments. It’s not bikers alone who pay for bike paths, and not just the parents of children who pay for schools. Parks are paid for by people who may not use them as well.
All citizens should be served appropriately by their government, and being a part of a community means you must support things that you don’t use or agree with because other people do.
The wheelchair example is not enitrely dissimilar unless you’re being obstinate. Chances are you don’t use a wheelchair and don’t need a ramp. Yet, your tax dollars support them, as they do a variety of other services that you neither need, nor desire to use.
That doesn’t let you off the hook, as other people fund things you may use, and they don’t.
It’s part of being a community. It takes a village, you know?
Unless and until smoking cigarettes on public streets is illegal you really can’t insist that services be withheld the people who choose to do so, or that they alone should pay, any more than you can insist that the handicapped build their own ramps.
Once again, I think you know this already, but are simply choosing to ignore it.
A lot of places do, but there are a lot that don’t. Of course, this will depend on where you are.
vinnie you’re right, it has nothing to do with the topic, and I don’t feel like starting another thread on it. It’s been argued to death before. One parting shot though, the disease model was first proposed in the 1860’s, not the 1970’s.
Qadgop, MD
“If there is one principle which is guaranteed to perpetuate ignorance, it is this: An attitude of contempt prior to investigation”
On a smoking thread way back when, the suggestion (and the practice of some smokers) was to carry an empty Altoids tin with them. They could store their used butts in the tin, until they could find a trash can. I think it’s a great idea. After all, the smoker took on the habit, they need to deal with it.
When I have discarded some gum in a wrapper, but have yet to find a trashcan, I just stash it in my pocket. Same for any other piece of litter I may have produced - I keep it with me until I can find a way to stash it. I don’t see why smokers should be any different. There’s just absolutely NO excuse to litter, ever.
While I am not against having public ashtrays everywhere, I don’t think the need for ashtrays is exactly equal to the need for wheelchair ramps. It isn’t like the wheelchair user decided one day “I think I’ll take up the habit of using a wheelchair”. The wheelchair user really needs and counts on some help from public establishments - just to get around. In comparison, the smoker just needs to bring an Altoid tin with them, and they are good to go. And since they can still get around without smoking, and since smoking is a choice they consciously made, I think they need to plan ahead if they are all that worried they won’t find an ashtray at just the right time. (Hence the Altoids tin.) Just like chewing gum is a choice I consciously make, and I have to deal with discarding the litter in a responsible manner. Same thing.
But, like I said, I am not against public ashtrays. I just don’t think that the smoker is terribly hampered or handicapped by not having them everywhere, (as long as they bring the Altoids tin!) Whereas the wheelchair users are hosed without ramps and special parking spaces.
Since I am not aware of any hindrance to any smoker from keeping an empty Altoids (or simular) tin with them at any time they deem necessary, I don’t understand why we ever see butts as litter, ever.
Yosemitebabe
While the Altoid tin seems like a good solution, good luck getting any significant number of smokers to actually do it. It seems like wishful thinking to me. And I don’t mean that insultingly, I just mean I can’t imagine that the practice would ever catch on.
I wouldn’t do it simply for the reason that I carry enough shit around as is and my pockets are already full enough. If I have a pack of cigs, a wallet, my keys and a cellphone on me I sure don’t want anything else.
Most of the time I’ll just find a trashcan somewhere. I’m not going to lie and I never flick my butts, but most of the time I don’t.
Well, back when I smoked I had a habit I picked up from my Dad’s Recon Marine buddies (who pretty much were the definition of cool in my eyes.)
They’d “field strip” their cigarettes. Very simply, they just roll lit but gently between their fingers until the burning ash fell out. They’s step on it to put it out, then roll out the rest of the tobacco.
What paper or filter was left they’d put in their pocket.
That’s what I used to do.
Of course. Anytime a person in a wheelchair finds himself confronted by a building entrance without a ramp, he can simply choose not to be in a wheelchair.
Or is it that smokers simly cannot ever stop smoking, or cannot refrain from smoking when there are no ashtrays around?
Whichever one it is, they’re equally wrong, and equally stupid. So I guess you’re right, they’re not entirely dissimilar.
The fact that there are not ashtrays around does not confer upon smokers a right to throw their butts on the ground any more than the fact that there are not trash cans around confers upon me a right to toss my soda can on the ground. I would be expected to hang on to it until such time that I could dispose of it properly. So should be the case for smokers, regardless of who is paying for what. Yet it appears to be the case that a large majority of smokers consider themselves exempt from this simple rule.
PLD:
You’re editing my content with that quote.
My argument wasn’t whether they should or shouldn’t litter, but whether it is considerate and practical to provide receptacles for them to dispose of their butts in public spaces.
Your rebuttal has little to do with my post.
Might I ask the source of this quote, if not yourself? It nicely sums up that which took me two paragraphs to convey. The “Hillary threads” could also use a dose of this.
Because smokers, regardless of what some would have you believe, are people. And people are lazy. What’s easier: finishing a cigarette, and then casually tossing it into the gutter before you walk into a building, or fishing out your Altoids tin, crushing the butt, putting it into the tin, and putting the tin back into your pocket? I’m not a smoker, but I am lazy, so the first solution would be more attractive.
However, I do consider littering of any kind disgusting, so it’s at times like this that I’m glad I don’t smoke. I also avoid chewing gum for this reason. No litter to worry about. When I do chew, I subscribe to the “all trash into pockets until I find a trash can” method.
And please, smokers, use the ashtrays in your cars. I use mine, and I don’t even smoke. Sheesh.
DMC, as much as I’d like to claim it as my own, I am paraphrasing Herbert Spencer, British philosopher, who actually said
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance- that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
It’d make a good sig here, wouldn’t it?
QtM
Next time your friends say that, just refer to firefighters. It’s their job to fight fires, but does that mean we should start fires on purpose just to keep jobs?
I do reject it.
I do reject them.
I will.
(Sorry, sorry, sorry… one too many baptisms lately)