It’s what you said. The blogger wrote that not all men are abusers or misogynists, and you said that her wording implied that most men are those things and that her disavowal of the overgeneralization “may be the problem.” How is anybody supposed to get to the content here if no amount of disavowals is sufficient to excuse our egos?
Ok, you did read the blog post. That actually makes your statements harder to understand. I thought you just hadn’t read the statements in context; it turns out that you did and you still interpreted it to mean the exact opposite of what was written. I’m not sure what to say about that either. She’s not suggesting most men are oppressors or sexists. She’s saying that the constant demand for “not all men” disclaimers is irritating, and worse, it gives people an excuse not to think about their own behavior. It’s wrong to generalize about all men as sexists or batterers of women, but it’s also wrong to demand that women use these kinds of “not all men” prefaces whenever they’re discussing their experiences. (And maybe even a “not all men” disclaimer still isn’t good enough.) It’s just narcissistic. If you don’t catcall women on the street or get violent with women, why assume you’re being generalized about when a woman talks about those kinds of things? We don’t need constant acknowledgement for not beating or harassing women, do we?
That’s what’s so bizarre, and what I’d like all the “b-b-b-but I’M not like that!!” dudes to sit and think about for a moment.
Why do you get defensive when a woman talks about a negative experience she’s had with a man (not you) or when women talk about rape in general (not naming you among the rapists)? Do you identify with the accused men for some reason? Examine that.
If you start venting to me about your crazy bitch ex-girlfriend Kelly who did all kinds of insane things, I never feel the need to pipe up with, “But I’M not like that!” Because…why would I? You’re talking about Kelly, not me. One woman, not all women and not me. You’re talking about someone who committed all kinds of destructive and malicious acts, and I know I don’t commit those kinds of acts nor do I want to. You’re clearly not talking about me, so I don’t feel defensive in the least.
Why do you feel defensive? If you don’t harbor any rage or hatred toward women in your hearts, then when someone mentions rape, they’re not talking about you, so why make it about you?
Do you understand the difference between “My ex-girlfriend is a crazy bitch” and “Women are crazy bitches”? When a woman sits at a table with her male friends who have already been talking about how you can’t rely on women to get the job done because their emotions get in the way, and continue the conversation as if she wasn’t even there, should she let it roll off her back because they obviously weren’t talking about her…even though it never occurred to them that it would have been nice to point that little fact out?
“When we say _____ are a bunch of ______, we’re not talking about you-You’re one of the good ones.”
That doesn’t seem to be what #YesAllWomen is about – it seems to me it’s about the fact (or view) that ‘Yes, all women have experienced sexism and misogyny – here are some of the ways in which I have experience sexism/misogyny’.
Whenever I come across someone speaking about the things that “all women” experience, think or feel, I tell myself that they mean “women of all kinds” and not “every single person who is a woman.” Most of the time, though, the meaning really is “every single person who is a woman,” which is near always inaccurate and—as you’ve said—can alienate women who haven’t had those “universal” experiences. In this case, I’m choosing to interpret “yes all women” as “Yes, all women are possible victims of anti-woman violence or discrimination.”
I don’t understand how you’re offended by this tweet at all. The post isn’t even a comment on the actions of men - it’s about society. Who’s doing the teaching she decries? It’s society as a whole. She doesn’t blame only men, and she groups both men and women together as victims of that teaching. Jesus, this tweet is everything that the “not all men” chorus claims they want feminists to acknowledge, and it’s the one you highlight as offensive?
Misogyny happens, but so does misandry. Human beings in general can be shitty to each other. I do not relate to a narrative where women are always the victim and men are always the oppressor. Sometimes men are mistreated by society, and the reality is that in some ways my life has been easier because I am female.
For example, I know that there is absolutely NO chance that the government will ever require me to sign up for the military draft or force me to die in a foreign jungle for a dubious war. I do not think I could seriously claim that society is always misogynist and always favors men when I know that a very large number of men were victimized by the US govt. in situations such as the Vietnam war, for example.
That’s just one example of why I do not like to see attempts to divide people based on sex.
The idea that men need to be re-educated, and the obvious reference to the “teach men not to rape” bullshit is, indeed, offensive.
As for being about society, anything that claims to represent the appalling plight of women, all women, and no men, is implicitly indicting men. Hence, #notallmen.
That just reminded me about Chris Rock’s joke about the men who say they’re awesome fathers because “I take care of my kids”. His reply was “You’re supposed to take care of your kids!”
Right. Once in a while my SO and I laugh about something similar: she tells me that if we have kids and I take them out in public on my own, people will probably tell me what a great dad I am for doing something as minimal as taking my own kids out. Seriously, who needs the bar to be set that low? It’s not a compliment. It’s a reflection of sexist standards, which means it’s sexist in itself. It’s just that in this case - and in a lot of others - men benefit from exceeding low standards while women get held to deleteriously high ones.
Would you also say that the attitude that men can’t be trusted to be alone with children is also sexist? I had the cops called on me once when my son(then just a young child) was having a fit and I had to carry him out to the car. I’ve learned not to go to any “G” rated movies by myself, and parents have in the past refused to let my son’s friends come over if I were the only adult present. These events(and others) are not something my spouse and I laugh about.
I to the best of my ability try to never generalize when it comes to any group, be they as large as all humankind or as small as Irish Jews from Guam. If I don’t attribute any particular fault to women in general instead of any particular person, is it too much to ask that I be extended the same societal courtesy?
Well then, assuming that I am not part of that group called “Man” that is being discussed, that I am indeed one of “the good ones”, what more can I do to help the situation?
When you see someone else being sexist, or misogynistic, or in general an asshole, you tell them to knock it off. That’s how you help. I don’t know how many times this needs to be said. (I’d think it was a given, honestly, but it obviously isn’t)
To be honest, because there’s STILL people in this world that think, “men > women” (and because of that they are usually also the perpetrators of shitty sexist asshole things) they’ll only stop when a man tells them to stop. Peer pressure, social pressure, the type that says “Wow that is so uncool that I’ll stop being friends with you”, is the only thing that will eventually turn some people around into being non-assholes or even examine their world view.
There is of course also the problem of people not always knowing what constitutes asshole behavior. I mean, there are still people who don’t understand what is or is not rape, much less the smaller things like catcalling. Unless multiple people tell them to stop (and especially people in their specific peer group), they’re not going to understand that they’re doing something wrong.
Of course it’s a given…and yet you assumed I didn’t already know that and/or didn’t already do those very basic things. I’ve read several hundred of the tweets on that account so far, and before that I’ve held several jobs working with and for women, and before that my reenlistment in the U.S.A.F. was refused because of various feminist causes I publically supported.
Listen to women? Check.
Treat them equally? Check.
Stop harassment when I see it? Check.
The problem is still here, so what else can I do to help?
You asked me what you needed to do. I assumed you didn’t know because you asked. That’s usually why people ask questions.
You are one person out of billions. It takes time to change the mind of even a million people, much less all of them. Just keep truckin’ doing the good you are doing, and eventually things will change. It doesn’t happen overnight. But we can’t stop just because it feels like we’re not making a difference.
If you’re frustrated about it, well, believe me, you’re not alone.
