YesAllWomen

[Robot_Arm]

@Marley23

You weren’t called a potential rapist.

I disagree. I think “every man is a potential rapist” means pretty much just what it says. And while that sort of rhetoric is rare, it’s not completely unheard of, either. Maybe, as was speculated in a current Pit thread, things have become less extreme since my college days.

All of the “splaining” things can be overused, but I can understand a woman objecting if a man tries to tell position himself as an authority on her experiences.

“Mansplaining” is the only “splaining” I’ve heard of. (Well, outside of I Love Lucy reruns.) How about when I say I find the term insulting and someone tells me “no”, now they’re trying to be an authority on my experiences.

[Marley23]

Ah, I see: you’re talking about a sign, not the hashtag.

[all_timestamps_displayed]

The whole hashtag / movement / dialogue has been co-opted by the system long ago, it’s all just so much crap at this point to get us stirred up and catch our attention.

Why is so much of the “dialogue” taking place via sharing Upworthy, Jezebel, BuzzFeed articles? You know that shit’s just so much pandering, right?

Why is everyone quoting that stupid ass “bowl of poisoned candy / cookies” quote like it’s some kind of insight, you know bigots of any kind could say the same thing about their targeted group right?

Every time I see someone whom I otherwise respect get caught up in this shite and start posting the same old articles from Buzzfeed, Upworth, et al it makes me sad as hell. It’s like they got bit by a zombie and turned (Fortunately I just found out I can block all those sites)

Anyways like any mass media-driven hashtag movement there’s a grain of reality in there somewhere but it’s been distorted all to fuck in service of any number of agendas. The most prominent of which is “maximize pageviews!”

[all_timestamps_displayed]

93% of Munchausen by Proxy cases are women / mothers.

#yesallchildren?

But no, right?

[KarlGrenze]

@Robot_Arm

“Mansplaining” is the only “splaining” I’ve heard of. (Well, outside of I Love Lucy reruns.) How about when I say I find the term insulting and someone tells me “no”, now they’re trying to be an authority on my experiences.

I’ve only heard mansplaining when it involves a man trying to explain or frame women experiences, without being a woman and having personally been affected.

Analogy:

I’m a veterinarian. I may not know everything about veterinary medicine, but I’m know quite a lot about. It is part of what I am.

My dear sweet dad one time, trying to talk with me, told me of how he read in an article about all the things you shouldn’t feed your dog. Not in a “look what I learned!” tone, but in a “you should know this/let me teach you this” tone.

My work deals with “what happens when people feed inappropriate things to dogs” quite often. I didn’t express it, but I did feel a bit insulted that someone was going on lecturing me about a topic which is my job, as if I didn’t know it.

And that is what is wrong with mansplaining. They’re talking with an authoritative voice, when they do not have personal experience or credentials in the area being discussed. It is irritating from the women who have the experiences to see them treated that way. No wonder they say “NO”.

A perfect example above in this thread? When someone mentioned a tweet where the woman said that men called her loud. Instead of thinking “what was that behavior” or examine “why was she called loud”, the mansplaining reply was “maybe she IS loud”, ignoring the rest.

[zweisamkeit]

@Czarcasm

Well then, assuming that I am not part of that group called “Man” that is being discussed, that I am indeed one of “the good ones”, what more can I do to help the situation?

Wow.

“Man” isn’t the group being discussed. The hash tag is #YesAllWomen, remember?

And if you reply that you’re talking about this thread, I’ll laugh. Because of course you guys* turn a thread about the hash tag women have been using to share their experiences with sexism so people can see how pervasive it is into a focus on What About Teh Menz? And if you reply that the women are talking “about” men, I’ll also laugh because they’re talking about their experiences, but you turn the focus onto youyouyou.

Especially since someone already asked that same question and had it answered earlier in this thread: shut up and listen. Which is the opposite of what you’re doing. You’re hearing, but not listening.

• and yes, by saying “you guys” I of course mean “every single male member of the species participating in this thread”. What else could I mean? “The subset of male members who are actually doing this behavior”? Haha, how can that make sense? :rolleyes:

[Czarcasm]

I’m still listening…despite responses like the one above.

[Malacandra]

And of course if women are the victims of sexism, then obviously men aren’t featuring in the discussion at all, and can keep their mansplaining to themselves.

[blindboyard]

@zweisamkeit

Wow.

“Man” isn’t the group being discussed. The hash tag is #YesAllWomen, remember?

The #yesallwomen hashtag was a response to #notallmen, so yes, it’s about men. #yesallwomen is explicitly an attempt to denigrate and discount the experiences of men.

[Munch]

@blindboyard

The #yesallwomen hashtag was a response to #notallmen, so yes, it’s about men. #yesallwomen is explicitly an attempt to denigrate and discount the experiences of men.

I think you have lost all sense of perspective on this (if there was any to begin with), since that is not in any way an accurate statement. It’s about the experiences of women, period. That men are often a part of those experiences doesn’t actually make it about men. Unless you want to maintain a massive persecution complex about it, of course.

[zweisamkeit]

@blindboyard

The #yesallwomen hashtag was a response to #notallmen, so yes, it’s about men. #yesallwomen is explicitly an attempt to denigrate and discount the experiences of men.

Still ignoring the Pit thread, I see. You brave man, you.

[zweisamkeit]

@Czarcasm

I’m still listening…despite responses like the one above.

:rolleyes:

[Dangerosa]

@Czarcasm

I’m still listening…despite responses like the one above.

You can’t legislate guys talking to your breasts instead of looking in your face - or a creepy guy on the bus insisting on asking you about your book, even after you ask him to leave you alone. You can’t put laws in place to keep men from interrupting women in business situations more than they interrupt other men - or being against your idea until they are suddenly for their idea (which is your idea, voiced by a man - perhaps themselves)

What you can do is be aware, call yourself and other men on it - and that’s about all you can do. Be aware of yourself, and the actions of others. If you are on that bus and the guy isn’t listening to her (either her words or her body language), speak up. If you notice that Ryan talks to Megan’s chest, say “you know, I’ve noticed…and if I’ve noticed…Megan has noticed…talk to her face.” If Ryan suddenly comes up with Megan’s idea say “didn’t Megan suggest nearly the same thing last week?” And on interrupting, “I’d like to hear the rest of Megan’s thoughts.” If Ryan is the kind of guy to reach out and touch someone - usually women (the George Bush shoulder rub is a “favorite” of women in corporate settings), tell him you are on to him. The deal with that one is that most of the time, you won’t see it - most guys are quite as bold about that move as GWB - they do it when no one is around.

And you can talk to young men - women are not on this earth for them. They are people, worthy of respect, with their own opinions - and they don’t owe you ANYTHING - not directions to the bus stop, much less sex. They aren’t all alike, they don’t have secret meetings to make fun of you, or talk about how all men are horrible (most of us end up partnered with a man, so you know that most of us don’t think you are ALL THAT bad - and you tell us that you know its not just for sex (Secret, its because we can’t reach that spot on our backs that is itching - if we could scratch our own backs, the institution of marriage would be dead.)) Some of them like guys who look like Channing Tatum, and some of them think Jason Hill is adorable. And some of them think Channing Tatum is hot and would only date Channing Tatum type guys, and some of them think Channing Tatum is hot, but are really more interested in dating Jason Hill type guys. And some of them would prefer to date women. They are like guys - some of them are intelligent and insightful, some are funny, some have amazing talents, some of them are loyal friends, some of them are frankly not worth your time as human beings.

And let the women in your life know you may not completely get it, but you are trying to get it (because you won’t get it - anymore than I, as a white woman, get racism - and its mansplaining to pretend that you do). If there is something you can do for them as a guy (a male voice on the answering machine when I was 24 and live alone was VERY HELPFUL, sometimes women need to produce their imaginary boyfriend for a guy who is very persistent), you’ll do it.

[Czarcasm]

@zweisamkeit

:rolleyes:

Do that a few more times-I’m sure it’s an effective way to convince people to listen.

[Sunny_Daze]

YAW unforunately does reflect reality for women today, at least as I recognize in the US. I’m sure in what we refer to as “emerging” nations at my work it’s much, much worse. No one is threatening to kill me for my religion this week, for example.

I will have to have different talks with both of my children. My daughter will have to be taught that nothing and nowhere is safe. My son will have to be taught that no means no, and that includes group settings, alcohol and all the things that young people have trouble with. I hope that both of them will help others in trouble, think Steubenville, but peer pressure is such a hard thing to overcome. So as a parent, all you can do is talk, teach and hope.

Here’s the fun part, as a woman, you can’t even really know that the people you call for help will be safe. Even the police, aren’t always safe. You just have to take your chances and go with your gut.

San Jose police officer charged with rape

So if the whole YAW/NAM is making men uncomfortable, I think that was the point. Because we are uncomfortable. Every day. And we raise our daughters to be too. It becomes background noise after awhile, but it’s there.

And I completely get the reaction that YOU are not one of THEM. Fantastic. The point was for YOU to understand for just a minute what it’s like to be US.

So what do we do? Other threads I’ve been on have compared this to the MADD campaign against drunk driving. It takes time. So we’re probably going to be talking about this for awhile. I’d apologize, only I’m not really sorry. My daughter might be growing up with this, but maybe my grandkids won’t have to deal with quite as much sh*t.

So what do we do? Other posters have made excellent suggestions - but basically, be the change - speak up against the creaper on the bus, against the jokes at work, don’t hit on that drunk chick at the bar. It’s not just about what happens when women are in the room, it’s also about what happens when we’re not.

And women have to be part of this too. I make myself speak up when I’m interrupted at work. I correct the guy looking at my chest, and I take my space at the table. And it felt really weird at first. Cause we’re not raised that way. And maybe someone might say I’m “loud” (they haven’t said it to me though), but I guarantee I don’t get any more job reviews where they say “I’m too quiet in meetings.”

[even_sven]

I’m not sure what my favorite part of this thread is:

• “You can’t just take every instance of women being treated poorly because of their gender and call it misogyny of sexism!”
• “Ladies I get what your saying but it’s kind of dull. Can we throw in some video games to make it more relate able?”
• “What I don’t get is why women don’t relish the idea of returning to the fifties. It was a great time to be a chick!”
• “Actually, let’s drop this whole ‘I don’t like to be raped’ thing and talk about mental health.”
• “This whole thing you made to discuss women’s experiences with sexism with sexism? I’d rather talk about how not sexist I am. I want a cookie AND I want you to stop complaining.”
• “Before we can discuss this, I need to know exactly how many people are sexist, please.”

[Malacandra]

You left out “reviving it after three weeks of quiescence in case there were any men who didn’t feel guilty enough yet”.

[zweisamkeit]

@even_sven

I’m not sure what my favorite part of this thread is:

• “You can’t just take every instance of women being treated poorly because of their gender and call it misogyny of sexism!”
• “Ladies I get what your saying but it’s kind of dull. Can we throw in some video games to make it more relate able?”
• “What I don’t get is why women don’t relish the idea of returning to the fifties. It was a great time to be a chick!”
• “Actually, let’s drop this whole ‘I don’t like to be raped’ thing and talk about mental health.”
• “This whole thing you made to discuss women’s experiences with sexism with sexism? I’d rather talk about how not sexist I am. I want a cookie AND I want you to stop complaining.”
• “Before we can discuss this, I need to know exactly how many people are sexist, please.”

I love you, sven.

And since this thread was bumped, it gives me a chance to address Czarcasm again. I’d like to point out that you proved my point (that you are listening, but not *hearing *) in this thread. You, out of genuine concern, I’m sure, asked what you could do to help. You then received answers from several posters and argued with them. Let’s see:

[ul]
[li]Macca26, who tried multiple times.[/li][li]Marley23, same.[/li][li]Karl Grenze, whose post you didn’t even acknowledge while saying you were “still listening” even after mean old me was so mean. :'([/li][li]And then Dangerosa, who wrote a long and thoughtful post specifically in response to YOU and your question and which you completely ignored because it’s easier to write a one-liner in response to a roll eyes at you.[/li][/ul]

So seriously, please explain why anyone should take your question as sincere? Because when you ask for advice and then ignore or shoot down every suggestion you get? Man, that doesn’t go over well when it’s about needing a good storage solution for your collection of vintage dog collars, let alone about how to help a sociological minority group.

[BigT]

@KarlGrenze

Here is an article about “Not all men”. I don’t agree with all it says, but I think it should give some perspective as to why it is not a good argument to make.

I find that quickly becoming defensive shows insecurity and that the person who becomes defensive IS a bit of what they’re talking about. This apply to someone who say “Not all men” or “not all white”, or similar things. Because really, you can listen to the complains, and if it doesn’t apply to you you know it doesn’t, you don’t need to become defensive right away. You can argue without having to resort to that. You can ask and question and talk around it, without making a case that “you’re not like them”.

I’ve seen that article, and it’s moronic. No one is posting #NotAllMen to aid the conversation. They are posting it because they feel attacked, and feel the need to defend themselves. Their purpose is to change the conversation to something less insulting.

The problem is that #YesAllWomen does not in any way address the issue that men are bringing up when they say “Not all men…” The issue is not that we believe that women have not felt sexism, even the most extreme kinds. The issue is that we don’t think you should take your bad experience with a small percentage of the population and treat everyone like potential rapists.

Ultimately, #YesAllWomen is a strawman, with regards to “Not all men.” The former is about showing that (nearly) all women have faced sexism in their lives. The latter is a counterargument to “All men are potential rapists.” The former does not impact the latter or vice versa.

What makes #YesAllWomen insulting is the fact that it was specifically crafted to counter “Not all men.” By doing so, it comes across as an attempt to overload a legitimate position with emotional reasoning about a similar topic.

Just because I’ve used “Not all men” before doesn’t mean that I don’t believe that women have faced all sorts of sexism. No amount of reading horrific stories is going to make me not use it.

If they really want to argue against #NotAllMen, they need to do so by pointing out that they actually agree with the sentiment, but that it’s not relevant to the issue they are trying to raise.

Because, as long as it is a response to “Not all men,” it is a pointless strawman that will convince no one.

And, yes, I realize that “Not all men” is often used as a strawman. But two stawmen don’t make an argument.

[BigT]

@ddsun

So if the whole YAW/NAM is making men uncomfortable, I think that was the point. Because we are uncomfortable. Every day. And we raise our daughters to be too. It becomes background noise after awhile, but it’s there.

But that’s the problem. Deliberately making people people uncomfortable makes you an asshole. And it is in all of our best interests to not give assholes what they want, because it just encourages more assholes.

And, let me be clear. I’m not talking about the inherent uncomfortableness is reading a troubling story. That’s a property of the story itself. But that’s not the problem that #NotAllMen is dealing with. They feel like they are being called potential rapists, and that idea is so insulting to them that they feel the need to respond.

If that uncomfortableness is intended, that makes the people who do it assholes. If that is indeed the point, then #NotAllMen is perfectly justified.

Insulting people is rarely the way to bring them to your side.