Yet another weight-lifting question - Such a thing as too many sets?

Ok, so, of all the advice I’ve seen, the one bit that crops up most often for weight lifting as a way to improve musculature is - about two or three sets of about seven or eight reps. (with a disclaimer that the seven or eight is acheived by choosing a weight that makes the “seven or eight” happen to be around the point of ‘failure’)

I am sticking to the seven or eight rule (or rather than that I’m choosing a weight which I fail to lift after about the seventh or eighth rep, but I don’t bother counting. For me, counting just gets in the way)

But as I’ve been to the Gym many times now I’m finding that I’ve already done about three sets on each machine I use after only half an hour because I take shorter rests. This means that I still have half an hour of time left of ‘time-I-intended-to-be-at-the-Gym’ time.

So my body is capable of doing the whole lot again, for the second half hour. But my mind tells me this would break the 7-8rep,2-3set rule.

So would doing more sets benefit? Or would it be nearly pointless? Or would it be detrimental? (from a muscle-building standpoint. I know it would be beneficial from a weight-loss/calorie-burn standpoint)

Instead of machines, use free weights where you can. The effort is different and makes a more challenging workout.

How many body parts are you working per session? Maybe add body parts or even do the whole body in that time.

Experiment with different rep/sets patterns. Everyone responds a little different and changing up your routine can be beneficial.

Just realized I didn’t actually answer your question.

Too many sets will result in a more of an endurance type workout. Since you’re working so quickly, you would need to use less weight to finish the extra sets.

The reason for the 2-3 sets/7-8 reps is that is the balancing point of enough volume and enough weight to stimulate muscle growth.

From what I’ve read, if you can do the whole workout again you’re not lifting enough weight. It’s the lifting to ‘failure’ that stimulates the muscle growth I think. Google ‘mansized’ and check out the site, it’s a UK based fitness site, and the forum’s quite good too. You should be able to find answers there.
Try Olympic style lifts, they’re supposed to be good for building strength rather than bodybuilding (muscle gain), whereas isolating muscles can be better for size gain.

I agree with this, and would suggest that you could do some cardio in the last half hour of your workout. Why not good a good balance rather then just weights? You do that too much and you’ll lose flexibility too, so throw in 10 minutes of stretching as well.

Yep. If you want to build muscle and increase your strength, up your weights instead of doing more sets. You should be lifting the heaviest weights you can (being careful not to hurt yourself of course).

And make sure you’re doing it with proper form. No swinging the weights to get them up!

Buy a book called Starting Strength. Read it. Follow the program. Do not fuck with the program. Eat well. Get strong.

Supplementary wiki related to Starting Strength. Note the word “supplementary.” This is not a replacement for the book.

CrossFit utilizes a lot of information from Rippetoe in its program. He’s basically the strength guy, while Glassman is the Olympic lifting coach and main founder. SS will get you plenty strong and ready for more advanced stuff. You could easily use it for a year or so if you plateau and do a couple of resets. If I’d known about it before I started CrossFit, I would have done SS. I ramped up to CF by doing regular bodybuilding exercises, stuff I did in gymnastics, and practicing unfamiliar lifts for form with light weights, which in most cases meant a bare bar until I got the mechanics down. Starting Strength would have gotten me farther, faster than what I did.

In direct answer to your question, there are basically three things you can manipulate in your training: repetitions, intensity, volume. Note that those aren’t independent variables. The 3x8 set/rep scheme you’ve seen is a straddle between strength and hypertrophy. It’s newbie friendly in that lifting weight heavy enough for only 7–8 reps is light enough to avoid injury yourself unless your form is pretty bad, but it’s heavy enough to produce some strength gains and muscle growth.

Finally, you shouldn’t be worrying about the time it takes for a workout, other than to make sure that you’re keeping it relatively short. For optimal gains, you want to keep your workouts under an hour for the most part. This is a recovery consideration. As a beginner, you are probably not going to be able to seriously fatigue yourself. Your body and nervous system can’t handle it yet. But you still need rest and recuperation. Many beginners screw themselves up because they think they aren’t tired, and so don’t need to rest. You do. Muscles grow in the rest time between workouts, not during the workout.

Some of my short intense workouts are over in less time than the warm up took. Seriously, I’ve done a 10–15 minute warm up for an effort that took 5 minutes. Of course, I might be gasping like a gaffed fish for the next 10. Or I might have just done a set of 5x1 max efforts; 3 seconds of effort with a 2–5 minute break between them. The time varies, and doesn’t matter anywhere near as much as the stimulus.

Dude, it’s a myth, there’s no such thing as “too many sets.”

The whole key to bodybuilding is variation.

This is what you’re body is doing.

You lift a wieght you’re body says “Gee this is tough.” So if you do it enough your body says “OK, if this guy is going to keep lifting this weight, let’s make the muscle a bit bigger.”

Your body will always take the line of least resistance.

The key is varitation. Once you do a certain number of sets for a certain amount of time your body adapts and it quits growing.

A person’s body takes about 1 to 2 weeks to adapt to a routine. So you should be changing your routine every two weeks, definately once a month.

If you do 50 reps and 2 set the first week, the next week do 25 reps and 5 sets. Then the next week do 10 reps and ten sets. Then the next week change the amount of weight and vary the number of reps and/or sets.

The key to growing muscle mass is to always vary your work out. Your body always takes the line of least resistance and adapts. So you want to use different amounts of weights, you want to vary HOW you are lifting the weight, the amount of sets and the amount of reps.

Variation will get those pecs and biceps to grow :slight_smile:

I read the following recently and found it to be an interesting presentation/discussion on the topic: Muscle Fibers and Weight Training

I missed the edit window, but I wanted to add that part if the point is, you’re likely to encounter a LOT of unsubstantiated opinion out there.

I guess it depends on what your lifting goals are…

Seriously, bodybuilders don’t train the same way Olympic lifters train, or the same way that Powerlifters train, or the way that Strongmen train, or the… you get my point.

I’ve done crazy 20 rep sets (1-2 sets), and have done the classic 5 sets of 5 reps, but I think only bodybuilders tend to go crazy with the number of sets. If it gets them bigger, hey go for it. I also think the super-slow sets are goofy too, but like I said, if you want big fluffy, sacroplasmic muscles, go for it. I’d rather have functional strength.

Weird, double post deleted.

7 or 8 reps is not enough. Especially if your new. You should go with 12 reps of three sets. As you advance one of my favorite work outs is: one set of 12, add some weight, one set of 10, add some weight, one set of 7 (or 8).

I also like doing what I think is called “Burn out” sets. It’s where you take two corresponding muscles like say biceps and triceps. Do a set for each muscle with no rest in between. After you do both muscles, then rest and repeat the process three times.

But please for the love of Og, keep in mind none of this means shit with out proper form. If you can afford it, it’s worth getting a personal trainer to help you out with that.

And in that spirit. Guys, if you’re one of those ones that puts a thousand pounds on the bench press but then you only lower the barbell halfway down to your chest; I’m laughing at you.

Shakes is partly right. Some people have made remarkable gains on very low volume/high intensity, others on the reverse. Don’t be afraid to experiment.

Just keep in mind you’re new to this and need time to build basic strength and endurance before trying more exotic routines and techniques.

Personally, I get the best results from an 8-4-12 reps pattern and 2-3 exercises per muscle group.

As** Marxxx **pointed out, variation is key. Change up your routine every few weeks, even if all you do is change the order you work in.

Shakes, if someone can lower 1000 lbs, he’ll be laughing at all of us. :smiley:

I’ve lifted for years, and this is the method that works best for me.

I use dumbbells almost exclusively, FYI. Barbells allow you to cheat your weaker side, and machines are only good for toning, not building muscle or strength.

Find a weight that lets you do three sets of 8 for the muscle group you’re targeting, but make sure the last couple of the last set are a struggle. Take a 30 second break between each of these mini sets. After the third mini set, take a 1 minute break and move on to the next muscle group.

When you can do 8 more comfortably, move up to 10. When you can do 10, go up to 12. When you can do 12, put five more pounds in each hand, then go back down to 8. Repeat.

I normally do biceps, shoulders and back one day, then triceps and pecs the next. I’ll throw in one or two leg sets each day as well, usually calves and glutes on the triceps day and thighs/quads on the biceps day. I do larger sets with less weight on the legs, since I’m not looking to bulk them any more than they are.

Using this method I can pack on 20 pounds of well-defined muscle in a given year, assuming I intake enough protein and water.

I’ve been off lifting for the last year or so and am about to get back into it. I’ve never found a system that works better for me.

What he says is technically accurate, but flawed. He’s focusing too narrowly on one particular aspect of weight training and drawing erroneous conclusions because of this excessive focus, in my opinion.

He’s saying that you need to have greater perceived effort on the last few reps. The problem is that to fatigue slow twitch fibers, you have to work for a longer time. But if you do an activity for too long, the bundles of slow twitch fibers you originally recruited may have a chance to recover and contribute strength to the effort again before you actually target any of your fast twitch fibers.

This is the reason for training with weights that fatigue you within a relatively short time. The only way to do that is to train with a load that requires the most fibers to work against it in a short time. Which is why you train with the heaviest load you can for the repetition range you’re aiming for, while maintaining good form to prevent injury. In other words, what people are doing right now. He says he’s disagreeing with standard strength training principles, but he’s not disagreeing at all if you follow the facts of his argument rather than his opinion.

One of his points is that isometric contractions result in the greatest strength gains. Yes, there is no question that isometric exercises recruit more muscle fibers, but training that way produces maximal strength at that particular joint angle. You can use the increased muscle size and associated strength across a greater range of motion, but it’s generally less useful than training at high resistance across the whole range of motion in the first place.

For an even more extreme approach, a Japanese research team tried moderate resistance training coupled with blood restriction and found that it does result in strength gains. The problem is, this principle could obviously only be used for training limbs, not core muscles, which makes it useful mainly for rehabilitation.

There are differences in muscle adaptation to dynamic vs. isometric training. If you need to move fast, you want to train dynamically. If you want to generate power quickly, you need to train dynamically. Isometric training will allow you to generate higher peak force, but that’s not the whole story, and it’s not optimal for many sports or activities. It’s also a bit contradictory to his point in that isometric training is trying to generate force against an immovable object. If he honestly believed that was the best way to train, there’s no reason to ever do any resistance training with a weight you can actually move, which is the exact opposite of what he concludes.

Yes, training with lighter weights over a longer rep range will result in strength gains over time, but only if you steadily increase the weight to match the resistance to the strength production. Whoops, there we go, we’re lifting heavy weights again.

In addition, at some point you need to cycle to a different load or rep range to prevent overly-specific adaptations to that particular stimulus. If you do nothing but moderate weights for a certain amount of repetitions, you get good at doing that number of repetitions at that load. But if higher demands in the strength or time domains are required, you won’t be capable of performing well, or in some cases at all.

There are also neuromuscular adaptations that he’s ignoring. It is documented that selective recruitment of different muscle groups takes place under different training regimens and that inhibition of antagonist muscle groups produces changes in performance. Particularly for beginners, the main strength increases from weight training are due to disinhibition in muscle recruitment and suppression of antagonist muscle contractions. In other words, the muscle was physically capable of producing more power than the person was able to ask it for before training, and other muscle contractions were getting in the way of the desired movement. The physical properties of the muscle change much more slowly than the recruitment effects.

One rep max testing, which is used in medical studies and by athletes themselves to gauge real strength gains, is basically subjecting you to a barely sub-isometric load. One reason athletes subject themselves to high weight/low rep cycles is to train their bodies and minds to deal with peak strength loads with little to no ramp-up, and to test for increased strength gains due to earlier cycles with lower weights and higher repetitions. Which again, is not at odds with his point of being able to train for greater strength at lighter loads relative to your maximal strength.