>>*f Shakespeare or Chaucer were German they’d have used Middle German.<<
Uh… Shakespeare used Early Modern English. Chaucer used Middle English.
Nu, tsi du vais inner, yoh?
You studied Yiddish because it’s there?
–Rivkele
Here’s a couple of links:
http://al.cs.engr.uky.edu/~raphael/yiddish/jabber.html
This one gets you to a Yiddish translation of “Jabberwocky.”
http://members.rotfl.com/cookie4/yiddishstats.html
This takes you to a great place (e-mailed it to my Aunt Franny), with all kinds of stuff. including a “How Yiddishkeit are You” test. I got an 80%, because there’s a trick question. Here’s a hint: Yiddish is a culture. Forget what Yiddish actually means in Yiddish. Think what it means in English.
It has jokes, shopping, and links (cyber for shmues). It’s a very Jewish place. There’s one place you can link to called “Cyber-Shtetl.”
Hob’n simche-- simchelzeit! A gut vok (a week of peace, where gladness reign and joy increase!)
–Doda Chana’s Tiere Rivkele
<<Rowan, Swabian German is just a German dialect (spoken by my grandparents on my father’s side) which sounds very rustic to the speaker of Standard High German>>
Does Yiddish sound rustic to German speakers? I know it has a rhythm that I would call a lilt if not for all the gutterals. Yiddish and German sound very different to me, and I cannot understand German at all. German sounds very harsh to me, even in movies where people are supposed to be being tender with each other-- kind the way French always sounds bored-- anyway the Germans always seem to be saying “take two steps back, and talk louder.” Very punctuated syllables. Yiddish is very sweet and friendly and warm, by contrast, TO ME, IN MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE.
::STOPS, CHECKS, (.)(.)()() NO, NO COMPARATIVES OR SUPERLATIVES HERE. SEEMS CLEAR.
To me, in my personal experience, Yiddish is also much pleasanter than English.
Would you rather “gey shlefen,” that last word actually sounding like the blankets being tucked in around you, or would you rather “go to sleep.” And have that staccato punctuate your march into the bedroom?
>>Swabia is a part of Germany around the black forest, named after the Suevi, a tribe (or group of tribes) that was around during Julius Caesar’s time, and may be ancestral to the people in that area (though it is hard to tell with all the migrations – the Suevi were hanging out in Portugal for quite a while).<<
Interesting. A lot of Jews were in Portugal before they were in Germany. Think there’s a connection?
>>Items such as “bissle”, “farsht’n”, “hob’n” sound Swabian to me. In general, my Swabian relatives use an “oh” sound where High German would use the “ah” sound. “Jo, froilich” (yaw, froylikh)instead of “Ja, freilich” (yah, frylikh).>> All quotes, Jens
Yeah. Yiddish has a lot of “oys.”
Zayterzoy gut, oyfir vault g’post’n tyil vorter en pair, en af German, un en af “Swabian,” tsi ken ich hob g’kreegen’n di vorter af Yiddish-- Oyzoy, tsi mir keyn zalnzeyn di zeylbiker.
Vas ir trakt’n?
Zayt gezunt.
–Rivkele
From Rowan:
Yep! Same reason I’ve studied most of the languages I know, except for French. That was the high school languages requirement.
Cave Diem! Carpe Canem!
Rowan: Since I grew up with German, it does not sound harsh to me. Yiddish would also sound rustic. In fact, the “gutturals” seem to me some of the most tender sounds, like a gentle breeze (“hauch”). That being said, some of the northern Germans can “make our ears bleed” with their pronunciation.
I think the Suevi were in Portugal around the time of Julius Caesar, which would probably predate the Jewish presence.
Here are some HighGerman-Swabian pairs:
Deutsche-Deidsche
einst-ois
sprach-schbrach
ist-isch
mein-moi
seine-soi
manche-manle
tiefe-diefe
spiel-schbiel
>>Rowan: Since I grew up with German, it does not sound harsh to me. Yiddish would also sound rustic. In fact, the “gutturals” seem
to me some of the most tender sounds,<<
No, no! I didn’t mean that the gutterals were unpleasant, only that they keep Yiddish from sounding sing-songy-- like the Scandanavian languages. My mother speaks noch a bissle Yiddish, and spoke English to me as I grew up. I think of my Aunt Chana when I hear Yiddish, and she is the gentlest person I know.
Also, I did not mean to be insulting to German-- I just meant that in my personal experience, German seems harsher than Yiddish. My point was that to me, the languages sound very different, although I understand that to people who don’t know one or the other, they sound alike.
>>like a gentle breeze (“hauch”).<<
I always thought that word was from the Hebrew word “ruach”!
>>Here are some HighGerman-Swabian pairs:<<
I’ve added Yiddish:
Deutsche-Deidsche Deitsh (also Ashkenaz-- from Hebrew)
einst-ois eyns
sprach-schbrach sproych, or sproyk, my aunt uses “sprak” as the past participle, but I don’t think that’s standard)
ist-isch iz
mein-moi meyn
seine-soi zein (this might sound the same)
manche-manle mentsch-- this also means “a good guy.”
tiefe-diefe not sure what this means-- it sounds like a couple of different things.
spiel-schbiel shpiel
Yiddish seems to be sort of in between the two-- also, Yiddish looks like it has more dipthongs.
It’s also got tons of Hebrew words, and lots of Slavic words. Oddly, though, it also has some Latin-based words, which is what made the Portuguese thing jump out at me-- but you’re right, it would have to be after 70 CE.
Zay gezunt.
–Rivkele
PS: do Germans give Shaina and Gitel as first names?
Okay, Rowan, you got me curious. Here I am! Shulem alaichem, y’all!
This confirms something that has long bothered me: The word “bentch” (to say a blessing) is said to derive from the Latin “benedictare”, which has always struck me as wierd. What other yiddish words come from Latin? And what is German for “bless”?
>>Okay, Rowan, you got me curious. Here I am! Shulem alaichem, y’all! << --Keeves
Aleichem Shulem!
[
[quote:
oddly, though, it also has some Latin-based words…]
] --Me
>>This confirms something that has long bothered me: The word “bentch” (to say a blessing) is said to derive from the Latin “benedictare”, which has always struck me as wierd. What other yiddish words come from Latin? And what is German for “bless”?<<
Actually, it comes from “benediction.” Say it fast-- “ben’d’sh’n.” It’s a coincidence that the word ends in “'n,” and so do Yiddish infinitives, but hence the back-formation “bentsch,” and then the American-Jewish “to bentch.”
Also, “dav’n” comes from “divine”-- again the “-'n” coincidence.
The Yiddish word for “beard” is “barb,” whcih I think we got from the French, but that makes it indirectly Latin. Ditto “fenster,” “window.” In French it’s “fenestere”-- oy, I think Ich mach a balgan af that spelling-- French majors can correct me.
–Rivkele
Just FYI, all this Yiddishkeit on the board has got me thinking… I called my Doda Chana, and told her “Ich voyl sproyk’n mitu nor af Yiddish, heynt un tomed,” so I’ll improve. She seemed kind of amused… but she agreed.
Anyway, also got a book, so Ich voll leyrn’n leyn’n un shrayb’n Yiddish’n. It’s about time.
–Doda Chana’s Tiere Rivkele
Actually, the French is “fenetre,” with no “s,” but the root is the same. Incidentally, “defenstrate” is one of my favorite words.
Thanks PLD-- I’ve actually been to Paris, but that was years ago, and my French is mostly passive. Ooh, that sounds sexual, doesn’t it?
I still love reading Daudet. And seeing Eric Rohmer films.
And Asterix.
–Rowan
Shopping is still cheaper than therapy. --my Aunt Franny
pldennison, I believe your favorite word is “defenestrate” (one more “e”). I agree it is delightful in its obscurity.
The German word for “bless” is “segnen”, although in the “Hail Mary”, the term used is the obscure “Gebenedeit” (for blessed, which as far as I know occurs no where else in German literature except for that prayer, which of course shares the Latin root for benediction). The prayer contains “Gebenedeit bist Du unter den Weibern”, which translates roughly to “Blessed are you among wenches” – “Weib” is no longer used politely in German conversation.
Asterix and Obelix rule!
Errr… this must be very recent.
John W. Kennedy
“Compact is becoming contract; man only earns and pays.”
– Charles Williams
Maybe you’ve been talking to impolite Germans, John.
–Rowan
Shopping is still cheaper than therapy. --my Aunt Franny
I guess that depends what you mean by “very”. In the 60’s, it was already being used only in a deprecating sense. The closest parallel in connotation I can offer is “wench” – not an actual obscene term, and once quite respectable, but a young lad taking somebody’s daughter out for a first date would be ill-advised to tell the parents that he thought she was a lovely wench.
Note that the connotation of wench has become somewhat intercourse-oriented, and some wenches are quite proud of it (www.wench.org host the International Wenches Guild).
The connotation of “Weib” is less sexual, and more oriented toward place in society. It might be used to express a contempt of “woman’s work”, or “woman’s gossip”.
It might be used to encourage a man to be more “manly” rather than acting like a “Weib”.
In normal usage, and even modern forms of the prayer, “Frau(en)” is always used instead of “Weib(er)”. ((en)(er) are plural suffixes)
The meaning must have diverged a long time ago, because my aunt gave me several examples of pretty unflattering terms which had “veib,” but she couldn’t think of one positive term.
veiberisha shtik = “feminine wiles,” or something like that.
veibernik = “ho’”
shlechtveib = ballbuster
My aunt, by the way, is a “ballabusta,” which word has nothing to do with “ballbuster”-- “ballabusta” means “good hostess.”
–Rivkele
I love throwing Yiddish expressions into my speech, because let’s face it, oy gevalt is so much more expressive than holy shit. Unfortunately, I’m a shaygets, and I live in fear of being thought mocking or patronizing. So if anyone mentions it, I inform them that my mother was the only shikseh at an all-Jewish high school in California and I got it from her.
Actually, “holy shit” would be “dreken koydesh.” Du kanst quote me.
–Rivkele
Rowan says: << My aunt, by the way, is a “ballabusta,” which word has nothing to do with “ballbuster”-- “ballabusta” means “good hostess.” >>
From the Hebrew, ba’al (“master”) and ba-yis (“house”). And, interestingly enough, the word ba’al was also the name of the pagan Canaanite god (to whom children were sacrificed), hated by the Bible writers, but presumably popular enough among the people that the word came into common usage.
Yeah. That whole thing in Hosea about marrying prostitutes, and cheating on G-d is full of puns on the words “Ba’al.” One of the other prophecy books is too, but it eludes me at the moment.
–Rivkele