I didn’t expect to walk into this today…I have an employee who is a wonderful woman, she is ontime for work, does her job above and beyond the call of duty, she has rarely missed a day and is just a generally nice person all around.
She has been going through some problems as of late and has needed some help from me in terms of being lenient with her doctor’s visits etc…etc… No problem, like I said she is a great employee and a fab person.
[I’ll call her Sarah] Sarah has come to me in the past when she is having a bad day and mentioned that she needs to go home. Knowing a little about her home life I don’t have a prblem with that, and have always let her go. I do notice that when she is having a bad day it is an enormously bad day, and when she is having a good day she is having a completely joyous day!
Well Sarah took me aside and said that she is going to be taking some new medication and that it will help with her mood swings [she was speaking as if she thought I was noticing her swings and was making judgements. I will not and do not make judgements of this kind…] Anyway, she mentioned that she was recently diagnosed bipolar. And she seemed very distraught by this, as if it was going to change her in some way.
I told her not to worry, that she was the same person now after the diagnosis as she was before…she is simply getting some new help/assistance pharmacalogically and it should level her moods, and that it’s ok, not to worry. She seemed somewhat calmed by this and we got on with our morning…
Does this seem an accurate statement to others? That you are the same person after a diagnosis that you were before, and therefore can take some solace in that?
That was a wonderful thing to say to her. You’re absolutely right about the fact that she is still the same woman. I am being treated for clinical depression and can attest to the fact that treated or untreated I am still me. I like the treated me alot better and so do others but I do take solace in knowing that most people in my life treat it as though I had any other ailment one can have and that with medicine I am back on track rather than some loony with massive mood swings.
For me, no, it’s not accurate at all. I have bipolar I disorder. I am a different person than I was before the illness began (at age 23) and I am a different person since I got therapy and pharmacological treatment. These things changed me and my life in profound ways. I would be very surprised to meet a person who has an incurable brain disorder who says they are not changed by it. I do find it a little patronizing to be assured I’m the same person by someone who can’t know whether that’s true or not.
But I don’t think it’s helpful to tell someone all of this. They’ll find out as time goes on.
Saying that you see her the same way can swing both ways. When things were bad, it made me feel like my co-workers and bosses were idiots because I was struggling and my work was suffering. (I knew they weren’t lying.) But it was also reassuring, in that it made me feel, “At least I’m not getting fired…yet.”
Well, I guess it’s better than if you had said, Not to worry, you are the same person now after the diagnosis as you was before. But now we don’t have to refer to you as batshit crazy!
I was once (am) in the same situation as Sarah and I think your response was great. However, I was happy to get a bipolar diagnosis after three years of screwups from psychiatrists and serious disasters with drugs that are much more appropriate for depression than for bipolar disorder. It was a huge relief to find out what caused that and get on the right path for treatment.
There is one other thing you can tell her that lots of professionals have told me. Bipolar disorder is probably the best major mental illness to have because effective drug treatment usually results in complete remission of the disorder. The disorder isn’t completely understood at a biological level but there are lots of tools that can be used sometimes by trial and error and most bipolar people will respond strongly to at least one drug combination. I won’t say that it is easy but it is basically like managing something like diabetes and the prognosis is good if she finds a good doctor and participation in finding what works for her. Sometimes it takes a while and a good amount of work but that is much better than the alternative. I have been in remission for 3 years.
She understands that the meds she is taking are going to help her - knowing her, and the way she is at work, she perseverates on everything, and she told me she was a bit worried now that she has a diagnosis, I was trying to be as understanding as I could. This is a manageable illness and one that she can deal with - I really like her because she takes initiative, I hope the meds she is on work well for her.
I don’t doubt that, but this woman’s been on meds for, what, two days? They’re not even effective yet, are they? I’m not all that familiar with bipolar meds, but most (all?) antidepressants take two weeks to be effective; anything sooner than that is a placebo effect.
I also wonder if your age at diagnosis had more to do with it than effective disease management. I’m not the same person I was at 23 either, and I’m not bipolar or medicated. (I do have currently unmedicated clinical depression and anxiety disorders that come and go.)
I think **Phlosphr **said exactly the right thing: she is, at the moment, the same person. It’s pretty obvious she’s got some perfectly normal but illogical ideas about what having a mental illness diagnosis is about. She thinks that now that she has a label, she’s “crazy”. Only, and I think this was your point, not having a diagnosis doesn’t mean you don’t have a mental illness. You do, you just don’t know what to call it or what to do about it. Having a diagnosis doesn’t change you into somebody with a mental illness.
This is more along the lines of what I am trying to say. I know when a familiy member of mine went on Lamictal she felt like she was pulled from a pool - that the ability to manage her life was restored…I don’t know specifics of what Sarah is on but I hope she get’s a similar experience.
First, if she is being given antidepressants, the latest research holds that is probably improper treatment for bipolar disorder. She is much more likely to be on a mood stabilizer. Some of them begin to work almost immediately. Lithium was effective for me within 24 hours.
Second, the disease can change you too, not just the pills.
I find this really patronizing. Of course I know I would naturally be different today than I was at 23, illness or not. But I am intelligent and perceptive enough to see the differences between myself and the other people in my age cohort (friends, etc.) who did not have to deal with a severe long-term illness.
This topic comes up time and again in conversation because I have a very different outlook on life than these folks. Just for example: they get their hands on extra money, and they want to spend it on a trip or a computer. I am constantly telling them, “Pay down your debts and/or save it; one in eight Americans will be disabled in their lifetime.” They all say I sound like I lived through the Depression. Having a serious illness can be that altering. There are also problems like the memory loss that my medication causes. It’s safe to say these things are a result of my illness, and not the natural progression of age.
I frankly find it bizarre that you would seek to so cavalierly deny that having a major illness has an impact on the development of a person’s personality.
BTW, you have made a poor assumption here. I was not diagnosed at 23. The symptoms began at age 23. I wasn’t diagnosed until age 27, or properly treated until age 30. This is typical for bipolar people.
Maybe. How do you know how long it has been since the onset of symptoms? How do you know how that has affected her or changed her? More importantly, how do you know how she feels about being told she is the same? It would have really pissed me off to hear that. I would have wanted to scream, “How the hell do you know?!?”
It takes an average of 7 years from onset of symptoms to proper diagnosis and treatment for a bipolar person. This has likely gone on for a very long time with Sarah. I have never met a bipolar person who did not feel profoundly changed by this experience.
I don’t think Phlosphr was entirely wrong, but if I were talking to my boss, I would want to hear work-related assurances. Not personally-based ones. I would think he was overstepping his boundaries. I personally did not appreciate it when my supervisors tried to reassure me with platitudes about how everything would be all right, because 1) platitudes are annoying, and 2) the supervisor did not know enough about my condition or treatment to know if they were accurate. What was comforting was hearing, “We’ll work with you on your schedule. You’re not getting fired.”
I think you’re reading a lot into what he wrote about her statements. Maybe she’s only concerned other people will think that. Which is not illogical. There are a lot of people out there who will discriminate against mentally ill employees.
Uh…I guess. I agree with this, but it’s not what I was trying to say.
Yes, well, hearing that you are not automatically seen as “the mentally ill person” is good. But to me, anything that sounds like, “Don’t worry, nothing’s changed” or “You’re going to be just fine” is crap, because people who say those things are rarely in a position to know. That is my point in a nutshell.
On the other hand, you didn’t complete those major changes between the day before you had a diagnosis and the day after your diagnosis.
We all change over time, often in profound ways, and for different reasons. Your changes happen to involve therapy for a disorder. I think Phlosphr was trying to reassure his(her) coworker that they didn’t suddenly see her as defective or crazy, they accepted her as a human being who was having a problem and is seeking a means to deal with it and they don’t value her any less than before there was a formal diagnosis.
Maybe I’m the one who’s batshit crazy, but I took the OP’s meaning to be that the diagnosis itself had not changed the woman in any way. Knowing that she was bipolar didn’t mean that she was any more likely to end up sitting in a closet chewing on a bedroom slipper, or burning up her baby or whatever. The woman had been an exceptionally good employee prior to the diagnosis, and he was telling her that as far as he was concerned (and believed this to apply to his co-workers), she would continue to be; the fact that she had been diagnosed with a condition didn’t mean she’d change any of that, any more than, say, a diagnosis of diabetes or any other more or less chronic condition would. YMMV.
Agree with some of what you’ve said, but not all, based on my observation of a family member with bipolor disorder. While it’s true that effective drug treatment can result in remission, I would not agree with “usually” and “complete.” It also can take a very long time to get the treatment that’s effective and safe for any given individual.
It looks to me like a person walking on a narrow bridge over a chasm; on one side is depression; on the other is mania and both are destructive. The doctor must somehow keep the person from falling off either side, while still permitting them to experience the normal joys and sadnesses of life. Returning to the narrow bridge analogy, the person needs to be “pushed” away from depression, hopefully not so hard that he/she falls into mania and vice versa, all without being immobilized. Add to this that the meds do take time to have any effect, and that the symptoms and whatever internal chemicals are causing it will vary from time to time, and you’ve got a very difficult situation. In addition, any given med may work but may have intolerable side effects, so then you’ve got to try something else. Fortunately the person I know has an excellent psychopharmacologist, but she is still unable to hold a full-time job, and it’s been several years since the diagnosis.
As far as the thing to say to the employee, I personally think it should be handled like any other medical condition as much as possible, with confidentiality, sensitivity and tact, which is what I think the OP was trying to do.
I don’t understand what you think you are proving with this statement (which is full of wrongheaded assumptions, BTW).
My point was, people with bipolar disorder commonly have the powerful, subjective feeling that everything in their life is changing suddenly, that they are changing, and in ways that they don’t necessarily like. To have someone say something to them that seems to deny that can be upsetting. That is all I am saying.
And if you REALLY want to upset someone with bipolar disorder who feels this way, tell them that it’s no big deal, that everyone changes over time, just as you and WhyNot have done. It will not go over well. It will not make them feel better.
That’s nice, but that’s not how he said it, and that’s not how I interpreted it.
Well, then rather than getting all hostile and calling us wrong headed while don’t you try to remedy our ignorance because, let’s face it, MOST people don’t have bipolar disorder or your direct experience with it.
And yet, Phlosphr said she seemed calmer after their discussion rather than more upset. I fail to see where it is impossible that what you find disturbing might be reassuring to someone else just because you both have bipolar disorder. Now, either she was hiding her upset really well (hiding feelings really well is not a trait I associate with bipolar, but I could be mistaken on this as I am no expert) or SHE actually just possibly might have found it reassuring. Or maybe she was wanting to know if her inner turmoil was something other people could see externally.
If I am attempting to reassure someone and find that I have inadvertently had the opposite effect rest assured I apologize and ask where I have erred. If I see no change in someone who then says “No, no, no! HUGE changes, HUGE changes in me!!!” I don’t deny their personal, subjective realities because someone COULD be undergoing huge internal changes that I am unaware of, but I will also be honest if about whether or not I’ve noticed these changes. After all, I’m not around my co-workers 24/7, there’s a great of their life I’m not part of.
I never said it was “no big deal”. I said we all undergo changes. I have a friend who had testicular cancer at 23 - do you think THAT didn’t make him undergo profound and lasting changes, that it was “no big deal”, that it didn’t make him a different person than he might otherwise have been? Bipolar is not the only chronic, long-term illness that has profound effects on a person. Some people are blessed to go through like without major trauma, but most of us aren’t.
I think the real question is how the woman he spoke to interpreted it. According to what Phlosphr said she seemed OK with it, even reassured. Of course I wasn’t there and I don’t know for sure - but then, neither were you.
Frankly, I didn’t bother because I found your post very hostile.
I never said it was impossible. He asked whether this was a good response in other Dopers’ experience. I answered no, it would not have been good, in my experience. This seems to have really set off some of you.
Nothing I have said could be interpreted to mean that I don’t believe other people can suffer trauma or changes due to illness. People in this thread HAVE tried to tell me that changes I ascribe to bipolar disorder are probably due to something else (aging).
This is not why Phlosphr says he started this thread.
And my answer was no. I don’t get why this upsets so many of you.
I should say that, not only am I bipolar, but I have a degree in psychology, graduate work in psychology, I volunteer to work with some support groups for bipolar people, and I am currently back in school so that I can go to work for a mental illness nonprofit when I graduate. This has put me into contact with a lot of bipolar people over the years.
I never said I spoke for all of them. Many of you seem hostile simply because I didn’t tell Phlosphr that what he did seemed right from my perspective. He did ask for opinions based on personal experience…as many of you seem to have missed.
