No, you’re missing the point. If you criticize someone for the car they drive, or for their hairstyle, or whatever, you’d better be able to handle people criticizing your car and your hairstyle. See?
Yes, and who gets to decide what is “wasteful” enough?
I agree with everyone else that $12,000 is appalling for a suit. That’s my personal opinion. But I wouldn’t spout off to that guy and I certainly wouldn’t know where to draw the line between “justifiable” and “wasteful.” Who gets to decide? Is Pepsi Cola wasteful when you can get generic for much cheaper? Does that mean that anyone who buys Pepsi is wasteful and you can dig into them for drinking Pepsi? Well, yeah, I guess you can dig into anyone who buys Pepsi, but you’d be considered an obnoxious, petty boor, now wouldn’t you?
So where do we draw the line? Is it Pepsi vs. generic? Or a $12,000 car vs. a $20,000 car? $30,000 car? What exactly is the cut-off point—the exact spot where “justifiable” becomes “wasteful”? Who gets to decide?
I never disputed that the rich guy was clueless for mentioning his suit budget right in front of someone who was complaining about money woes. Clueless, indeed. That part of the rant is understandable. But then to rant and rave about what this guy spends his money on, and to say what is “justifiable” and what isn’t? That’s a different matter completely.
C’mon Evil Captor, Pepsi Cola? Generic wasn’t good enough?
Once again, what is the cut-off here?
Yeah, I know what. Buying that stuff gives people pleasure, and it’s none of your business.
You are entitled to your opinion, and for the record I agree that $12,000 is too much for a suit, but it still isn’t any of your business. And it has nothing to do with you or me or anyone else.
The OP took this guy’s spending habits to heart and carried on about how “unjustified” such spending is. But that’s not his call to make because it wasn’t his money to spend.
And so what do you want to do? Bitch and complain and fuss over how other people spend their money? Would you like it better if they spent more money buying your stuff? Would that make it all fair to you? Or spent in in just the way you see fit?
So what do you want? So where do you draw the line, once again? Is it social injustice to spend too much money on Pepsi? Or at Starbucks? Or on computers? Or porn? Why don’t you give me a detailed list, with dollar amounts, of what purchases you deem “justifiable” and what is “socially unacceptable.”
Please. Give me a list. I wait to be enlightened.
But you’ve got a computer. Is it an ancient 486 or something newer? You do know that you could get along with a cheap ancient 486, right? Or better yet, sell your computer, ditch your ISP and use the library to get on the Internet. Or better yet still, just ditch the Internet completely. A lot of really poor people don’t have access to computers. They live in a van by the river. How wasteful and unjustified your extravagant spending habits are!
And the rich guy was breaking into someone else’s banking account to buy his suits? No, it was his own banking account. And the people who charged the amount they charged for the suits weren’t forcing anyone to buy them either.
Besides, how do you know that some of your clients aren’t compulsive buyers, buying too much art? Maybe they’ve got a garage-full of extravagant, “wasteful,” “unjustified” stuff. So they don’t need the stuff you sell—they could be spending the money in a much more prudent manner. So how dare you take money from them!
I never understand the “Piece of the pie” statements. Is there some absolute portion of the economy that is distributed about to everybody, and once it is all taken, there is nothing left? So all the rich people are taking your chances of making money? Is that what this is all about?
Woe is me, I cannot make any decent money because everybody has taken it first!!
The fact that this rich person is spending his money on 12,000 dollar suits instead of having it in his bank rotting should mean more to you than anything. The money is flowing, and is not a “piece of pie.”
For those people who question how anyone could spend 12k on clothes, what the guy actually said was “the stuff I wear on a daily basis is 12k”…which leads me to think he has an expensive watch. He didn’t specifically say clothes, and high end watches can easily be 12k.
Hard to do $12,000 in casual clothes (gold plated underwear?). Not hard to do $1200 in clothes or $12000 in “stuff I wear” if you include jewelry - particularly watches.
On the cluelessness…yes, clueless. But it isn’t hard to have no concept - especially if you are young and you’ve never really needed to pay attention to how much anything costs. I remember making $3.35 an hour in college, and my little sister, still in high school, bothering my mother for $6 socks. To my sister, who hadn’t worked a day in her life yet, and had not real concept of money, $6 was just $6 from what was my parents apparently limitless supply of money (in her view - in truth it was limited - but she couldn’t conceive of such a thing). To me, it was two hours plus (after taxes) of work for me.
I call bullshit on this whole rich bastard wankfest. Greed and wastefulness were considered immoral long before this OP came around. The twit was not being criticized for being rich, so quit trying to convince yourself you’re an aggrieved minority. He was being criticized for not knowing the value of a dollar, and for pissing away perfectly good money. And people NEED to be criticized for those things, because they are not only aggravating to the unwashed peasants, they are moral failures. They do make you a bad person.
More generally, it is entirely valid to address matters of continuity within a moral framework.
For example, although we are all wasteful/sinful/tardy/whatever to some extent, it is no defense for the extremely wasteful/sinful/tardy/whatever to point out that others share their characteristic as well.
Quantitative differences matter. Double-parking is not the same as doing 80 in a 25 mph zone, although both are illegal.
And everyone’s idea of greed and wastefulness varies, depending on who you are, and the people who surround you. So? Are you the final say on what exactly is too greedy and too wasteful? You gonna decide for everyone else where that line is drawn?
Wait a minute, wait a minute . . . you are implying that I’m an aggrieved minority? Like, you think I’m a rich person? Me, the one who still drives a 1987 Dodge? Me, who has never, even at my best, been rich, and right now is not rich at all?
This issue matters to me and it hits close to home for me because I’ve been criticized for buying too many jeans at Sears. I’ve seen my dad (who worked at the Post Office all his life) criticized for buying too many damned books. Sure, he always drove old cars and we lived in a modest house, but damn, he spent too much money on books! How wasteful!
You think that this kind of mindset only is directed at rich people? You’re wrong. It gets directed at everyone. Because no matter how “poor” you think you are, you are “rich” in someone else’s eyes. This kind of behavior and thinking is petty and boorish, and it’s best not to go down that road.
And yet again, I ask: what is the definition of “pissing away” money, anyway? Can you tell me precisely what that is? My dad left about (I estimate) 3,000 Classical LPs. He bought them at their regular retail price, none of them were expensive on their own, but he loved Classical music and he just kept on buying and buying. (And listening and listening—he loved that collection and got a lot out of it.) So, is 3,000 records “pissing away” money? Do you begrudge him that? Are all his books, or the grand piano he bought my mom “pissing away” money?
And people certainly have criticized my family for my dad’s “pissing away” money on books and records. Because in their worldview, that was a terrible waste. Are you going to chime in and agree? How many books are too many books? Can you tell me? What is the exact amount that is too much to pay for a book? Or a purse? Or a car?
Oh, I get that. I’ve seen that. My dad’s books were “aggravating” to those who didn’t think books were important. But what would you have my dad do? Not buy any books? Not buy as many? Was he obligated to buy things to please his neighbors? (Boy, that grand piano sure pissed off the neighbors, I can tell you . . . )
There aren’t enough eye rollies for this one.
By your criteria, we’re all bad people and we’re all moral failures. We sit here, comfy, with electricity and an Internet connection. We probably live in a house or apartment. We probably have more than one set of clothes. And that’s far more than many people get by on. And they know that we have computers, and they know that we have houses, or cars, and they don’t. Isn’t that terribly aggravating to them?
You drive down the street in your car, and there are people who have no cars. You are waving your car in their face. You are a bad person.
So I want you to give me an exact amount that is too much to spend for a:
car.
pair of jeans.
package of hot dogs.
computer.
I also want you to tell me whether or not it is justifiable or wasteful to have a record or CD collection that is larger than:
10 CDs
50 CDs
100 CDs
And let’s try this: Is someone “justified” in spending money on:
porn.
popcorn.
European vacation.
extra vehicle.
iPod.
portable DVD player.
What kinds of items are “justifiable” and which items are “wasteful” and an example of “pissing away money”? Can you tell me, specifically, which things are okay to buy, and which items make you a “bad person” if you spend money on them? Please. Tell me which.
Unlike your speed limit analogy, which has a strict, definite number value, I’d say that you’d be hard-pressed to find anyone who can agree on which items are “wasteful” and which are not, on how much is too much to pay for something, or how many shoes are too many shoes, how many cars are too many cars, and so forth.
So, unless you can give me a detailed list authorized by some central group that speaks for all of us, defining where that line exists between “just wants” and “pissing away money,” then you’re just spouting off your opinion. And if you feel entitled to pass judgment on someone else for paying “too much” (in your opinion) for something, then you deserve the same sort of scrutiny and criticism yourself. For how much you spend on lunch, for what kind of car you drive, how much you spend on entertainment, and so forth.
Now, since I’ve already been on the receiving end of that kind of criticism, I have to say that I don’t much care for it. It sucks to have someone bitch at you for your clothes, or your collection of CDs, or whatever. It sucks to have someone get all bent out of shape and begrudge you enjoying stuff that you bought with your own damned money. As if what you feel is important, and what you enjoy, is somehow taking away something from them. Like you can’t buy stuff for yourself, but you always have to think about them, and pass it by them first to make sure that your own buying choices “pass muster.” And that sucks.
Since I know how much it sucks to be treated like that, I’m doing my best to not dish that kind of treatment out to others.
And while I’m on this little prolonged rant, I have a tangental (but related) point to make. I got people getting pissed at me or my family for our buying choices, even though it had nothing to do with them. Their attitudes were strikingly similar to the people I’ve know, who, for whatever reason, were pissed that I could draw. I had one friend who would literally seethe when I pulled out my sketchbook to doodle in front of her. It was almost like she thought I was slapping her in the face because I could do something that she couldn’t do. Like I was insulting her. But what the hell was I supposed to do? Not draw at all? Only draw at carefully orchestrated times, in order to not offend her?
How much of our lives and our behaviors do we need to adjust in order to not be considered a “bad person”? Can’t we just enjoy what we enjoy without always having to worry about how some completely unrelated, unaffected third party is going to get all pissed at us because we have had good fortune?
When the question at hand is who will be criticized by me? Yes, that’s right, I am! Congratulations, you’ve figured it out! I make my own decisions about what I deem moral and immoral. And no amount of idiotic drivel from you will be changing that. Now go call Rush up and have him come up with a new comeback line for you, since forming your own ideas is such an alien concept.
When the question is what you think, or what society at large is going to sanction, you can have a say. Till then, go fuck yourself. Nobody suggested throwing him in jail. They suggested he was a bad person. You don’t get to tell us we can’t think that.
Oh, and since you mentioned it, yes, we are all moral failures. Some of us more than others though, which is the part you’re incapable of grasping. And once again, as far as my criticism is concerned, I get to decide the terms of that scale. Ain’t life a bitch?
Yeah, you have that right. I never said you didn’t. I merely said it was petty and boorish. Oh yeah, I guess that’s my opinion.
And so does everyone else. About your attitude.
And I notice that you dodge the issue. You think that we all should condemn those who we think are “wasteful”? Well, we’re all wasteful. So I guess that means that we all can piss in each others cornflakes all damned day long, all of us begrudging someone else who is the teensiest bit better off than we are, or someone whose priorities are more towards new cars instead of more CDs, and won’t life be grand? Won’t that make our world ever so much better, to all be petty and bitter and jealous with each others possessions? To feel morally entitled to pass judgment on each and every person who doesn’t adhere to our own strict idea of what is right?
:rolleyes:
Another weak attempt to side-step the issue. And another assumption about where I’m coming from. First you assume that I’m rich (I probably own a far crappier car than you do—doesn’t make me morally superior than you?), and now this.
I got this idea from my own experience, which I have specifically laid out repeatedly many times. Shocking, isn’t it, that I can form opinions from my own life?
No, what you’re suggesting is that it’s morally right and okay to be a bitter, petty person who begrudges someone else something that has nothing to do with you. And when you sanction that kind of behavior, you deserve to get the same kind of bitterness directed right back at you. Enjoy. You asked for it.
Speaking for myself, I hope that if I don’t dish it out, I won’t have to take it. I’ve taken enough as it is, thank you.
You can think whatever you want, honey. And I can think you’re bitter, petty, and possibly jealous for thinking it. And once again, I can think that you definitely deserve to have someone else piss in your cornflakes on a regular basis. Because hey—you dish it out, you deserve to get it back, right?
Once again, missing the point. Why am I not surprised?
There are always ranges of “wasteful,” but since no one can agree on where the line is, that means that pretty much everyone is evil and wasteful (in someone else’s worldview) which I suppose means that we all should make each other miserable, right?
Looks to me like the “bad person” in the OP has, with one stroke of his pen, already done more good for the needy that you are ever likely to do in your entire life. How exactly then is he a “moral failure”? Because he hasn’t given as much as he potentially could give? Well, neither have you, and neither have I. I don’t know anyone who doesn’t indulge in something that couldn’t be classified as an “unnecessary indulgence”.
I know middle-class people who own horses, boats, and RVs; they cost considerably more than $12,000 dollars. I know middle-class people who regularly go on expensive vacations. Are these people automatically “bad people” because they didn’t donate that money to charity?
Who decides how much of a person’s income must be given away to others in order for that person to avoid the label of “greedy and selfish”?
Yosemitebabe makes a mix of decent and not-so-decent arguments. Let’s start with the wheat.
If somebody brings up my father’s moral failings, it puts me in an awkward position. Firstly, I’m not sure what I’m supposed to do about it. Secondly, it is likely that I know more of the relevant details regarding my Dad’s transgression (littering, say) than does the finger-wagger. Thirdly, I have been put into a moral quandary of my own, where I must weigh familial loyalties against upholding social standards.
Furthermore, if my Father had passed away, the preceding is magnified. So methinks that some of yosemitebabe’s acquaintances lack discretion, from the sounds of it. Hey, I’ve made social errors too.
------ And if you feel entitled to pass judgment on someone else for paying “too much” (in your opinion) for something, then you deserve the same sort of scrutiny and criticism yourself. For how much you spend on lunch, for what kind of car you drive, how much you spend on entertainment, and so forth.
Yes. But I deserve exactly the same sort of scrutiny that I dish out. Since, I wasn’t asking to go through Mr. 12000’s receipts, he can’t go through mine. Mr. 12000 is welcome to chat with me about why I purchased a Dell Dimension rather than a cheaper locally built machine (or an Optiplex for that matter).
It won’t do, however, to equate spending, say $200,000 per year on personal items, as opposed to something closer to the average. They simply aren’t in the same ballpark.
I’m afraid that we have a communication problem. Please let me know exactly the point in the color spectrum where red is separated from orange. You can’t, and I can’t, because we’re discussing a continuity. There are lots of cases where categories (and characteristics) can be reasonably discussed without worrying about bright lines.
There may be no bright line between a “tall”, “medium” and “short” person, but that in no way invalidates the categories themselves. That’s the point about continuity that I was trying to make.
Thinking sensibly, what is “too much to spend” depends upon context. I will spend more on food when I’m working a 50+ hour week than when I have the time to fix my meals. Your average tycoon can probably get away with wearing a Brooks Brothers suit, but not if he’s in advertising: when flash is called for, other brands may be prudent.
I could probably come up with a methodology for answering your question, but yosemite-babe was speaking by way of illustration anyway, so I won’t.
I’m not sure what I think of all that. But let me hone in on the last sentence. I don’t fear moral judgment: I welcome it. If you want to discuss whether my behavior has been prudent or well-considered, by all means, let’s do that. [Note: Make direct eye contact when saying this. Don’t get defensive. Pose lots of questions. (“Do you think that’s reasonable?”) Widen your eyes slightly, on occasion. At other times, narrow them into slits. Cock an eyebrow.]
I can handle moral judgment. What trips me up is resentment, which necessarily bypasses rational discourse. I’m guessing that Yosemitebabe has overlapping concerns.
All the same, if your actions have consequences, then they are likely to have a moral dimension. To pretend otherwise is amoral, immoral, or nonutilitarian.
----- There are always ranges of “wasteful,” but since no one can agree on where the line is, that means that pretty much everyone is evil and wasteful (in someone else’s worldview) which I suppose means that we all should make each other miserable, right?
That POV reeks of moral relativism. There are always ranges of immorality, some acts are worse than others, and none of this should stop us from condemning those who act egregiously or recognizing worse acts where they exist.
Still, yosemitebabe has put her finger on a classic problem with utilitarianism: while it identifies better or worse moral actions, it is a poor indicator of moral adequacy.
But moreover, it comes down to someone judging my dad based on their own values. Some people don’t value books. They hardly have any books in their house. So, to see someone have literally a whole wall—floor to ceiling—of just books, is appalling to them. Because they don’t get that much out of books. But does that mean that the person who does get a whole lot out of books is a “bad” person?
Yes, that’s definitely part of it. I don’t particularly give a shit what people think in their heart of hearts, but when they bitch about it to me (whether it be my spending or my dad’s spending), then that’s a different matter.
And as long as you don’t resent his tone (keeping in mind that his tone is similar to your own) then you’re all fine. If he thinks you’re intrusive and is intrusive back, and you don’t mind, well, that’s not so much of a problem for you, but it is a problem for him. Perhaps he doesn’t want you asking intrusive or judgmental questions about his spending habits. Perhaps he doesn’t think it’s your business.
Not everyone’s life is an open book, you know.
No, they aren’t, which makes condemning someone for spending $200,000 seemingly so much easier. But we still come down to the where we draw the line, and who draws it, and what is the best and most appropriate way to express it.
And yet each person’s opinion will vary. “Tall” may mean something different in an area where the average person is 5’ 6". And if you come from an area where the average is 5’ 9" and you try to tell someone else who is not from that area that they are too tall or not tall enough, you’re going to have difficulty. Because the standards differ depending on who surrounds you.
And there are a variety of contexts, and also people’s preferences, quirks, private feelings, and so forth. And perhaps it’s not your business to decide what is “too much” for someone else when they are merely spending their own money in the way they prefer.
And there is a way to do that if it’s a pressing concern. For instance, if someone wants to throw away an old used computer and you think that they could donate it to the homeless shelter, by all means, make a suggestion. Or if they ask for your input, then by all means, give it.
But if they enjoy what they are buying and seem to get something from it, and they aren’t hurting you, then perhaps keeping your mouth shut is appropriate, unless you see a pressing, immediate concern (like a particular homeless shelter needing a computer right now).
Way back in this thread I brought up my sister, who bought a $500 ring, which appalled me. I’d never spend money like that and it seemed like such a frivolity to me. I am still a little taken aback that she’d spend money like that, but I never intend to utter one question about it, or to criticize her (or even mildly inquire) about why she bought that ring or whether or not the money could be better spent. Because that ring brought enjoyment to her, and she worked honestly for the money that paid for that ring. And I have no intention of raining on her parade or ruining her enjoyment.
I’ve also thought on occasion about these ultra-rich people who spend scads of money on the “finer things of life” like expensive art, fancy designer clothes, and so forth, and I’ve decided that unless they are apathetic, dull, bored people who don’t remotely enjoy the stuff they buy, then I’m really happy for them. I can sew a little and I can appreciate a well-designed garment perhaps a little more than most people. When I want to splurge I’ll pay the Big Bucks for a Vogue Designer Pattern (woo!) and let me tell you, I can appreciate the subtle details and elegant cut of some of these patterns. They are really nice. So, even if I can never afford a designer outfit, I’m glad that someone can afford them and I’m glad that someone out there gets paid to design and make such beautiful things.
Same goes for the expensive paintings and houses and yachts. A lot of these items are created by people not unlike me—people who create things—and I’m glad that someone is paying these people for making lovely things.
I will add one other thing, though: when I see someone who doesn’t even remotely appreciate the beatiful things they buy, then yeah, I have to say that it bothers me. But it isn’t really a matter of how much they spent on that thing, it’s just that I believe that we should all appreciate the things we have. If I give someone one of my hand-made mugs, for instance, and they don’t understand why it’s special and prefer to use K-Mart slipcast mugs, well, I personally won’t feel like giving them any more of my mugs. And even though I realize that it’s none of my business, I admit that it would bother me if some rich millionaire bought a whole lot of my mugs, but never used them, never enjoyed them and didn’t give a shit about them. But once again, that’s not about the money spent. I’d be just as upset if an equally poor coworker didn’t appreciate one of my mugs. (And even with that admission, I can see that it would be hard to decide what was appreciative enough? It gets so complicated, that’s for sure!)
I think most of us can, and should. But it depends on why the moral judgment is given.
When it comes to spending money, I think that we color our judgments with our own personal preferences and hang-ups. And so we get situations like the non-book fan judging the person who loves books A LOT, and trying to tell them that they are bad because they buy “too many” books. And that’s not really productive, now is it?
Yes, yes, yes, you definitely bring up a huge issue.
Rarely do people start in with these judgments without some underlying resentment. I think that usually we can tell when someone’s judgment is touched with more than a bit of resentment, and I think that it’s an element with the OP, and with many, many people.
But in the case of spending money, it’s not so easy to know that someone else’s spending is wrong. If someone buys a $1,000 painting from me, for instance, are they extravagant and bad? I mean, think about it—$1,000 for a piece of stretched canvas. But what if I desperately need that money? What if I donate half of that money to some worthy charity, or hire someone less well off than me to paint my house? We never really know where the money may end up (unless we’re buying drugs or giving money to a wino ;)) so even if one person spends it on something “frivolous,” the person they give the money to may not.
I guess another reason I feel as strongly about this is because I create “nice things” that can be expensive and can be deemed “frivolous.” Some of the people who have paid me for my work have been pretty well off. Where would I be if there weren’t rich people in the world to buy my art?
I see in preview: Lib, stop. Stop now. Stop stop stop stop. Please. Stop. That was way over the line. Please take a rest. Stop stop stop. Please.
Lib, not being nasty, but is there anywhere I could see some of your art? I really am interested and I would not dare attempt to criticize it. I would just like to see it.
askeptic, did you mean me? I don’t recall Lib talking about art. In case you mean me, you can check out the site in my profile or go to my Geocities site.