You snuck in while I was adding my PS.
Either that or my reading comprehension was wonky – either way.
Yes, in the case you describe, I think your best bet is just to be clearer up front “this is our treat” – and just realize that some people are wired that they’ll offer to kick in anyway, they’re not trying to offend you or piss you off.
I understand – as I say, it wasn’t the fact that the guy was offering to pay, it was the aggressiveness involved, and the fact that after I declined it was him who appeared a bit offended. But next time I’ll make it clearer up front.
It depends on how you worded the invite. We watch over the house of some part time neighbors. They usually insist that they buy us dinner once a year or so. But they are very clear that THEY are treating us to dinner. I will usually offer to take care of the tip, but am politely declined. And I leave it at that.
If on another occasion, they suggest we go to dinner, I always assume it’s ‘dutch’.
The :shrug: it’s your choice shows very, very poor maners.
Having eaten a lot of restaurant meals in the UK over the last 40 years, I always assume it’s ‘dutch’ unless someone states otherwise.
When the bill arrives, I don’t offer cash at first, but I do say “how much is it?” and smile.
If you haven’t explained clearly to your dinner companions that you’re paying, then when they offer to pay and you decline, they are probably embarrassed.
Next time, cheerfully state beforehand that you want to treat them.
(Of course you have now created a social obligation for them to reciprocate…)
If I’m going to err, I’ll err on the side of offering money, rather than err on the side of being seen as a mooch.
Look at the worst case scenarios here…
WCS #1
Offer money. Politely declined. Don’t worry, my treat. Oh, nifty!
WCS #2
Do not offer money. WTF? Does he expect me to pick up the tab for this? Good lord, I asked him if he wanted to come out to eat with us, I didn’t offer to pay for the meal too!
Soo… yeah. I play it safe. Unless it was very specifically said “My treat” or to the waiter,“All on the same check”.
Though I still try to cover the tip at least, even if someone else is paying.
This exactly, right down to the “let me get the tip then” sorts of scenarios. It’s a very universal, understood, exqusite dance.
I must also not know what an invitation means. I’ve never encountered this attitude. I don’t ever recall going to a meal with a friend and having them pay, and I know I certainly haven’t paid for anyone else’s meal.
Ever get that feeling you have slipped into an alternate universe where the rules are completely different to the ones you understand? I’m having that feeling now. Really, this is something people do? Invite them out for a meal and then pay for it?
If a friend offered to pay for my meal at a restaurant, I wouldn’t be offended as such, but certainly baffled, and confused as to why it was happening. And it would seem like a violation of some unspoken rule, that everyone should contribute their fair share. I’d probably insist that I pay, as strongly as you might insist that you pay. I don’t know, it would be the same if you offered me some cash out of the blue… there’s no reason for me to take your money.
(And I am talking about friends here… it’s happened when I’ve been taken out for a meal by my boss and he has paid. Then I’ve certainly done the reach-for-the-wallet/it’s-my-treat/are-you-sure? dance.)
Why? It’s only money. How else you gonna settle a bill?
It’s odd that you find this concept so baffling. Not to be challenging, but genuinely curious: how old are you? Have you never been asked out on a date (for example), or asked someone else?
Since this thread has been revived, I’ll mention one more detail if it makes a difference: one reason I’m pretty sure it would have been understood that we were paying, at this particular event, was because my wife and I are members of this club and the two couples were there as our guests. It’s not like the guy could have gone up to the server and settled his part, or asked for separate checks – they wouldn’t have taken his cash; members are billed monthly for what they spend, and the guy knew this. (In part, I think this addresses the “how else you gonna settle the bill” question above.)
Unless you had made it clear when you issued the invitation, I would have been startled if someone offered to pay for a nice meal for 6 people. That’s a lot of money for most and I’d think people would feel unconfortable if they hadn’t known in advance that it was your treat.
Generally when my friends and I invite each other for dinner, it’s just an opportunity to share each others’ company and we all split the bill. If we were treating, we would have said something like, “we’re celebrating such and such” or “we’d like to thank you for your help with…” and make it clear from the outset that we were treating.
Having said that, I too find cash flying around the table kind of crass. Don’t know why, I just find money awkward.
Koxinga, I am really surprised at your bafflement.
I’ve been eating out enthusiastically for 40 years.
I’ve eaten with friends, locals, colleagues and relatives.
I’ve tasted all levels of nosh from hamburgers in fast food joints through traditional cooking in family restaurants to top-quality signature dishes in exclusive clubs with World Champions and minor Royalty.
I’ve dined in the UK, France, Germany, Spain, Italy, Holland, Belgium, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Austria, Switzerland Hungary, Poland, Slovakia, Russia, Ukraine, Canada and the US.
Unless it was a wedding invite, or the host specifically stated beforehand they were paying, then we all politely offer money at the end of the meal.
Based on the above, this is the world-wide etiquette.
You mention a date, which is indeed different from the above. Were you suggesting group sex to the couple you invited to your club? :eek:
:smack:
I don’t doubt it. Offering to pay is one thing, and I never said that surprised me. What I find curious is that Monkey Chews finds the very concept astonishing, of ever treating someone else for a meal. He says he would be baffled and confused–his words. To me, that’s bizarre.
Turning to the more general issue: what about if someone is entertaining in their home? Imagine your friend or his/her spouse invites you over and cooks a nice meal, and you all had enjoyable conversation extending into the evening. And at the end of the evening, when it’s time to go, you put money down on their dining room table. Is there anyplace where that would be looked on as good manners?
I’m sorry. Is you guest on a date with you? Is this a business meeting where they are your client or a potential client? Are you an old friend in town on a business trip with an expense account? Is the guest your son or daughter?
If no, then why on Earth would you not assume that you would split the bill?
My next question was going to be if you were some wierd Old Money millionare or something.
As I, and others, have alluded to, paying for the adult guests at a restaurant either implies a position of power and status or if it is a professional setting, there is an implication of a desire for reciprocity (IOW I want to do business with you).
For example, if your stepdad offers to pay for the meal for the entire table, you don’t argue over the check for 20 minutes like you are in a romantic comedy. You politely offer to split the bill with him. If he says “no thank you” then maybe you make one more “are you sure, I’d really like to” offer and then leave it at that. That way you don’t make your stepdad look like a chump who needs to turn to his son in law for money and you don’t look like a cheapskate.
I don’t take my boss out to lunch or dinner and a client doesn’t take me because, well, it’s basically like I’m paying for dinner with their money anyway.
If you are out with peers, you nearly always split the check.
Anyhow, that’s how 90% of the people do it.
Maybe it’s an Old Money thing to just pay for the whole meal for everyone. Presumably the you would take turns hosting dinners so it would eventually all balance out. And I suppose everyone would have so much money that it is a minor consideration anyway.
I do have to say, there are few things more annoying than wealthy people with a false nonchalant dismissiveness of money. The only reason they can be so nonchalant and dismissive is because they were born into so much of it.
Some people get a kick out of picking up the check (please invite me 
). Others feel like they have to offer no matter what the circumstances. Some people have a reason for picking up the check (business, return of favor, expectation of future favor, whatever). In Taiwan, it is not unusual to physically fight to pay the check for the entire party *even when it is someone else’s party. * (trust me, it would take too long to 'splain and you probably wouldn’t get it anyway.)
It is hard coded into my DNA to always offer to pay “my” share. Or let me buy drinks later. Or let me pay the tip. Or at least promise to let me reciprocate sometime in the unforseeable future. It’s manners and/or the way I was raised. It’s also a power/dominance thing - damnit let me make a contribution of some shape or you be dissin’ me.
If it’s on the corporate dime, I make sure people know so that we don’t have to go through the dance.
msmith - I’ve known a few very wealthy people that very naturally just got the check without making anyone feel offended. And those same people were genuinely (or faked it well) appreciative when I reciprocated by paying for the nightcap or getting in a round of coffee or some such token.
The way I see it, it’s mostly a demonstration of power and dominance thing. People don’t do things out of generousity. They want to look like a big shot. And those people probably genuinely are appreciative. I’m sure they are often used to dealing with freeloaders who are content to just accept them paying for stuff without reciprocating.
You can tell a lot about people about how they react to even small amounts of money.
Well you started by saying: “My wife and I invite a couple to lunch at a nice sit-down restaurant, as part of a larger group. We figure it’s kind of understood that we’re playing hosts, so no need to worry about picking up the tab.”
As this thread shows, it is against everyone else’s experience that you are somehow acting as ‘hosts’, which means you ‘pick up the tab’.
Standard behaviour is that if you treat someone to a meal, you make it absolutely clear beforehand (and there is usually a resulting obligation for them to reciprocate.)
This is weird.
Do you think this is somehow supporting your original position?
As everyone knows, you graciously accept such hospitality, then make an effort to return it.
Now when my roleplaying group spend a weekend in someone’s house, we all chip in to cover the cost.
Are you saying that if we met at your house, you would be insulted to be offered money, since you were the ‘host’?
Unless it was abundantly clear up front that (i) we would like to take you out to dinner, (ii) at a private club we belong to which bills us monthly for that month’s charges, and (iii) it is our treat, because we enjoy your company and would like to do something the four of us enjoy, I wouldn’t be surprised or offended if my guests offered money at the end of the meal. I think these days the default position for something like this is dutch treat, unless explicitly described as otherwise.
I don’t know if “a fistful of cash” is hyperbole or he really extended his fist full of wadded up bills, but typically when two or more couples are contributing to the cost of a meal, all you see are credit cards and the instruction to the server “please divide the bill evenly”. And if it was my treat and I had made that clear, I still wouldn’t be surprised if my guests offered a card, which I’d politely decline. Your guest’s shrug and comment was uncalled for and not the right way to respond, no question.
There are very limited circumstances in which I’d allow one of my peers to pick up a tab for two or more couples. One is the private club situation described above; another is if we had an understanding that we all get together once a month and the hosting couple rotates among the group; another is if, for instance, they were guests at our vacation house for the weekend and to show their consideration for our hospitality, they insisted on taking us out to dinner. There are other scenarios, obviously, but I think if you are the host in the situation you have to at least assume, if not expect, your guests to make some effort to contribute.
For what it’s worth, it used to be common etiquette that the inviters were picking up the check for themselves and the invitees. But, over the years, things have evolved such that it’s considered rude for all parties to assume they’re being treated and to fail to offer to pick up their portion of the bill. Additionally, since the OP invited people to what is presumably a private club and they often have tabs instead of a standard bill (at least at my mom’s club, you sign off on the tab for a meal and pay the balance off at the end of the month), I think it makes sense that the OP was expecting to pay.
Regardless, if I were in the same situation as the OP’s friend, I would probably say something like, “Oh, at least let me get ours,” and held a hand out for the bill before I whipped out some cash instead of handing a wad across the table. That’s not because I’m trying to get the inviter to pay, but shoving a wad of cash across the table makes it seem like I’ve been keeping a mental tally of how much my food costs. Plus, I don’t think cash is in any way obscene, but at a private club, bill paying seems a bit trickier. However, if the person inviting me refused, I would have politely said thank you and offered to pick up the next meal out.
It’s silly that the guy got miffed when the OP refused, but I wouldn’t read anything into it. Just realize that most people expect to go dutch nowadays and some are taken aback when that’s not the case.
Skipping the rest of it, which has been adequately addressed, the fistful of cash seems a bit in poor taste to me too. It just seems crass somehow, rather than saying, “Can I get this?” Or “At least let me pay for half of it.”
Really? I like going out for dinner with a group. I don’t like feeling like some of my friends are excluded because they can’t afford to go with us, and I don’t want to embarass them by picking up just their portion, so I simply pick the entire thing up. I like to feed people, sometimes more than I like to clean my house. I don’t want anything from it, any more than I want something from having people over to my house for dinner.
Without a doubt. Dinner is more about hospitality than cash, though.
Thinking about it, I can see where the OP is coming in his reaction to a handfull of cash. There’s something sad and gross in reducing shared food to a mere financial concern. Of course, dinner with clients or business associates is something else completely.