SkidRow I’m sorry your childhood sucked big green donkey asses but you are in SERIOUS need of therapy. I have raised my oldest to the age of 18 and he actually THANKED me for the (count them) 5 spankings I gave him in his 18 years. I NEVER swatted him for stupid shit like YOUR ABUSIVE parents did. ANYONE that does what your parents did should be locked up and I personally don’t know why you resorted to violence instead of calling the police yourself. If your such an advocate of peaceful discipline WHY in HEAVENS name did you retaliate like that? I wonder if you don’t have a SERIOUS anger problem.
Through inflicting pain, hoping that the pain will correct/prevent.
Apology accepted. No worries.
“Child abuse” may be a legal term in your country, but it’s also an expression in English, which we must be allowed to use if it accurately represents the idea we’re trying to convey. As far as I can tell, no-one but you has been discussing legal matters, just whether or not spanking is right/good/proper/whatever. This may have legal ramifications in that our idea of what is right/good/proper/whatever tends to make us want to change the laws in that image, but it doesn’t make the discussion about law.
That there are many countries in this world with many different laws regarding this and other issues, and that there in all probability are countries where occasional spankings are illegal and do result in children being taken away.
I saw a funny thing in the local supermarket a few years ago. Basically the same story you’re telling, but it was a candy bar. They are placed conveniently low, close to the check out lines, and what kid can pass them and not be tempted.
After the “No, you can’t have it” and “Waaaaaa but I waaaaaant tooo”-shrieking had gone back and forth a few times, the mom got down on the floor, paddled her arms and legs in the air and started wailing: “I waaaaant the neeeeew Cosmoooooo!” much to the bemusement of other shoppers. Her kid, aprox. 3 years old, stopped immediately, looked awfully embarresed and started to sidle away from the scene.
This, of course, took guts by the mom, making a fool out of herself in the supermarket. But I bet you all, that the kid learned the lesson as well as if she had been spanked, viz some behaviour is unacceptable.
I guess it has to do with culture, and of course, most Americans view us Europeans as liberal, which, to a certain extent we are, as compared to the U.S. We’re not so uptight about public nudity or nudity on TV or in movies. We don’t go to church as often, if at all. I guess there is a big devide between the U.S. where most Europeans take a stand similar to what, in the U.S. is refered to as ‘liberal’ or new age. This shows itself in attitudes towards gun controll, the war against Iraq, capital punishment, abortion - and raising kids.
In my country, it was made a law about 25 years ago, that it was illegal to spank a child. We had the same debate here, back then, as is shown in this thread right now. I basically sided with the prro-spankers / con-abusers.
I was wrong.
You see, the thing about this law, was drawing a line about acceptable behaviour and society saying that there is never an excuse for hitting your child. By doing that, you’re actively acknowledging your failure as a parent when having to resort to using physical punishment to get something across to the child.
So what was the result of the law being changed in Sweden a quarter of a century ago? Well, we’re not the #1 when it comes to violent crimes. Kids 25 and younger are as obnoxious today, as I was at that age, so there is really no visible change. It didn’t get worse. But what was the benefit then?
Simple, elliminating that grey zone between a smack and abuse. Making it all abuse has cut down tremendously on serious child abuse. Teachers, neighbours, youth leaders, what have you, can now report things before they get out of hand. There is no ‘maybe’ when it comes to parents hitting their kids.
Of course, kids still get slapped and spanked, and smacked on the behind, occasionally. And their parents are not hauled off to court and thrown in jail.
Let’s make a scale of child abuse from zero to ten, with ten being rape/incest/serious permanent physical harm, and zero being no physical punsihment at all.
In Sweden, with the limit being set at zero, the kid who gets slapped on the wrist or gets the bottom spanked once (1-3 on the scale) will not make anything of it. The kid who shows up at school with a black eye or bruises on his back from the belt (4-6), will probably end up in the parents getting investigated, and a kid with a broken collar bone (7-8) will surely end up with social services digging deep into the background.
In the U.S., where the limit is set at 3 (up to the occasional spanking), it might be hard to determine if a parent has crossed the line into more serious teritory. And it might be hard for a relative to intervene to save the child, when that line is blurred.
So yes, the law has been good. Fewer kids are seriously hurt from child abuse. That’s not a bad thing.
pencilpusher, its nice to know that someone who doesn’t know me can analyze me. Thanks a whole bunch. Truth is, since you appear to a child beating advocate, you have no credibility with me. But, making an assumption about you without knowing you makes me just like you, doesn’t it?
Please stay on point. I’m not the issue. Child beating is.
Careful there, Gaspode. You are dangerously close to injecting facts and logic into this thread. The child-beaters will hate you for that. That may even (snicker) spank you.
…and before you extra-chromosome posters start, I love America. I have no desire to move to Sweden. I want to make America better, thank you so little.
And you have no credibility with me because you are obviously a maniac with serious anger-management issues.
But you have made yourself an issue by posting your own charming little anecdote. You relate with pride how you broke your parent’s bones. And you feel justified in having done this, because, after all, you were abused. It seems perfectly okay on your planet to seriously injure people who disagree with you so long as they’re adults. But children should be allowed to run straight into traffic and grab burning objects because preventing them from doing so would be abusive?
And frankly, I question your statement of having been abused. According to you, a smack on the bottom is abuse. So I really wonder just what is was your parents did to deserve being violently assaulted.
I think you’re insane and I think you’re full of shit. And I think you should be in jail right now for what you’ve done.
And just what the hell does this mean? What the hell does it have to do with anything at all? WHAT’S WRONG WITH YOU?!
I am glad that you think that someone is injecting some intelligence into this discussion- because it certainly isn’t you. I know that you have your own issues to work out, but your rhetorical style reminds me of a ‘pro-lifer’ that claims to want an honest debate with the ‘baby-killers.’
I appreciate Gaspode’s POV, but there are distinct cultural differences to be looked at- the solution is not so simple as criminalizing all physical discipline. I’ve never argued that spanking is the best option, but it is a viable one, with the caveat that it is administered fairly, consistently, and is accompanied by both an explanation of the offense, as well as affirmation of your love for the child.
Will some parents become abusers? Sure. Can they be equally abusive without ever laying hands on a child? Most definitely.
ratty, one of us has “serious anger management issues,” but I don’t think its me. My self-defense occurred 24 years ago. Believe, me, I’m over it. You apparently are not and you weren’t even there. And my point was: where do you think I learned the violent behavior from? My parents. Regarding the Sweden line, let me encourage you to read all posts before you fly off the handle and embarrass yourself. You must really be a hit at junior high.
Stonebow, I appreciate your point but it would appear that you think facts are relative. Facts are facts whether we are in the USA or they are in Sweden. By the way, I am pro-life, but I don’t get into the “baby-killer” stuff. It makes the valid arguments against abortion sound ridiculous. The facts should be enough regardless of the issue.
Actually, it’s precisely that simple. Every time a law is made, there is a line drawn where society says “This is ok, that isn’t.” When I studied in Chicago (1985), I was surprised there were curfew regulations for minors. It struck me as insanely stupid, but then it was explained to me why this is actually for protecting the minors, not restricting them.
There is a cultural difference in many ways. I grant you that. Those have made it possible for legislators in the U.S. to set the speed limit at 65 mph, whereas in Germany, in many places, there is no speed limit. The voters elect a government in their liking and the politicians respond by legislating what they think is possible, in view of the popular opinion. These are not natural laws or things written in stone by the fiery writing of the Lord. If the government in the U.S. or in individual states would think that a law, making all kind of physical discipline illegal, is the best thing since pre-sliced bread, while thinking they can get away with it (meaning, they won’t get voted out of office by next election), they would do so. Now, maybe the politicians don’t think this is an important issue, maybe the public opinion isn’t strong enough to put it on an agenda and start a lobby group to try to influence the politicos that this indeed an important issue, but saying that it isn’t as easy as just passing legislation is just wrong. That’s where you start, by drawing a line and telling the people what is acceptable.
Yes, the baby-killer shit does indeed make the arguer look ridicuous, as does this child-beating garbage you keep spewing.
Frankly, I have to wonder at your truly amazing lack of perspective. Ever tapping a child on the ass is abuse, but breaking bones and knocking out teeth is a-ok, 'cause they hit you. Do you not see the inconsistency there? There’s a concept you might want to familiarize yourself with called “reasonable force.” You get to defend yourself with force in proportion to the danger you can reasonably assume an attack poses.
Based on the information you gave us in your first post, it sounds rather like you may have gone way past that. Since you used the italicized version of spanking, we don’t know if you’re talking about an actual spanking, a beating that would leave you with cuts and bruises, or something that would leave you with broken bones. If it was either of the first options, you used excessive force and are guilty of criminal assault.
And frankly, dear child, no one has ever said or implied, “This is 'Merica, and we beats our chilluns, and if you don’t like it you can go to Sweden.” Your rebuttal of a comment nobody has made just makes you look like a 1st class, grade-A assmonkey.
Gaspode, before you can draw a line, the people drawing it have to agree (most of them, anyway) on where the line gets drawn. If the majority disagrees with where the line gets drawn (like in, say, Prohibition or the speed limits-who doesn’t speed?) you’ve got a huge mess on your hands. So it’s not really just that easy.
Also, I’d like to see some of the statistics for the advantages you’ve listed from Sweden’s no-spanking laws. You’re not #1 in violent crimes, but were you ever? If violent crime overall (excepting child abuse cases) hasn’t gone down, and you haven’t actually moved down on the list, then I have to wonder why you’d even bring that up. If something was never broken, then you didn’t fix it, you know?
Wow. I’ve been away for several days and just now made it back to this thread. I guess I knew that this would spark strong opinions on both sides.
When I started this thread, I was hoping to relate my own experience with spanking gone too far. I wanted to show that sometimes a “spanking,” as defined by the parents delivering it, is actually very abusive and harmful. I never meant to imply that ALL spanking was abusive.
While I do not plan on disciplining my future children physically, I have no real qualms with parents who give the rare tap on the butt. I do feel that the use of an object, such as a belt, is excessive. I also feel that using spanking as the preffered method of discipline for any and all infractions is excessive. I suppose my OP was pretty much a plea to parents to be aware of the force and anger levels involved when they are discipining their children. I wanted to show that a line is sometimes crossed between ordinary discipline and abuse. My parents showed me that there are some people who simply can’t regulate themselves when they become angry. I do not want anyone to take the OP as a personal attack. I do not know any of you. I don’t know what a “spanking” equates to in your house. I’m sure that all of you, on both sides, believe that you are doing what is best for your child.
Skid Row, I’m so sorry that you went through such a painful childhood. I’m sure that you know that, technically, harming your parents was wrong. I also know that there is a breaking point for any human being. There comes a time when one simply cannot take any more pain or abuse. I can understand how you might have snapped. While it may have been better to have called the authorities prior to the incident, you probably didn’t have a moment to do so at the time the “fight” took place. Even a child knows that self-preservation comes first.
I know that what I am about to relate is anecdotal, and you may make of it what you will. As a child, I tried to tell many people that all was not well in my house. Because spanking is a broad term, most people saw me as a child who was only complaining about a normal punishment. My extended family believed that my parents were only doing what all parents did. I also told many of my friends’ parents. Some saw it as normal discipline, others felt that they shouldn’t become involved. The one time anyone listened to me, I was about 12 years old. A friend’s mother saw the belt marks on my back while I was changing my shirt. She was horrified, and told me she would call Social Services. While I was thrilled that someone believed me and cared, I was also terrified that SS would take me away from my family and place me with strange people. I know that that sounds irrational, considering what went on in our home, but children are usually as frightened of the unknown as they are of the situation they’re already in. The mother didn’t call anyone. When I became older, I wished she had. I relate this incident because I know why Skid Row might not have called anyone. I left home at 15. The abuse stopped when I left. It was hard, but I got through it, and I believe that I have grown up to be a good person, with good ethics and morals. I learned right and wrong from friends and their families and through much hard experience.
I agree that spanking is a grey area. I can’t tell anyone what the situation in their home is like, because I have not been there. The OP was simply an example from my own life where I believe things went too far. I just don’t want any child to go through what I did.
**Skid Row ** your an asshole knowitall that knows NOTHING. I also think you are suffering from Borderline Personality Disorder because you have a problem seeing grey areas. Persons such as yourself can be treated with a good therapist and time. NOTHING IS BLACK AND WHITE there are ALWAYS grey areas in EVERYTHING.
Oh BTW if your a nonissue then why don’t you take your nonentity ass out of this thread YEESH. Your taking up too much room with your nonintelligent rhetoric.
Welcome aboard pencilpusher. Maybe a little common sense will come with your second month of membership.
…and being called a 1st class, grade-A assmonkey by CCL is a high compliment indeed.
Finally, it still amazes how vitrioloic some become become in protecting their right to beat their own children. I hope these people are just as passionate about teaching them manners, values, science, math, etc. Somehow, I doubt it. I could be (and hope I am) wrong. I’ll pray for their children.
I’m not going to convince the child-beaters (spankers) and (hold page 1a!) they’re not going to convince me. The only difference: my belief doesn’t harm children. Can you, without exception make that claim?
Oh yes - I can.
BTW, thanks hyperjes.
Its good to know that at one other Doper knows what its like. I’m sorry you had to suffer but, it didn’t kill you, so it only makes you stronger.
CrazyCatLady.
Briefly, because it’s 1.30 a.m. here:
If you re-read my posts, you’ll see that I bring up the fact that there has to be a public opinion that’s supportive of the legislation. If everyone thinks it’s a dumb law, it might create more problems than benefits. From my POV, I find it sad that so many resort to spanking their kids, but that’s just me, and I only entered this thread to give some perspective from a country where even spanking your kid is illegal.
As to what the thing about violent crime entered - I got very tired of the hyperbole here about how people ‘need to tech their kids the hard way or they’ll grow up to be [insert whatever].’ Strangely, there have been no studies showing an increase in kids who come to the emergency room with their fingers burnt from stoves or kids being maimed in traffic accidents, due to not being properly disciplined. In fact, most kids grow up today, the way they did during the 60’s when I was a kid, with one difference - fewer kids are seriously abused.
And I very much think that the last post by hyperjes illustrates why there needs to be a line drawn, and why that line must not give much room for doubt.
Gaspode, I DO think a line needs to be drawn. I’m not necessarily in favor of laws and legislation, but rather a line being drawn by parents. I would rather see parents understand the line between discipline and abuse than see a mother carted off to the pokey for tapping a butt at the grocery store. Spanking as discipline is a decision best left to the parents, as long as abuse is not taking place. But parents need to be certain that they can draw the line themselves, even when they are angry at their child.
Skid Row
Has it ever occured to you that constantly insulting people is not going to get you heard?
If you truly want to change people (which I doubt, I think you’re just looking for an outlet for your residual anger about your childhood) alienating them and bullying them (as shown through your refusal to quit calling people who even tap their kids child beaters) isn’t going to accomplish anything?
Other than making you look like an ass, that is. Which you’ve done a tremendous job on.
skid row, you keep telling people who spank their children that they “have no credibility” with you. So, just a quick question: since we have three children, and have only spanked one of them, does that mean I have 1/3 less credibility?
Some posts back, I expressed sympathy for your horrible childhood experiences, and I meant it. I also asked that you consider not painting us all with such a broad brush. This request has gone, indeed, unadressed by you. Was I perhaps too polite? I’d like to hope not.
norinew, my apologies. I appreciate your concern. Like I posted earlier, it was 1978 and all parties had long since moved on. But your kind words were cool to hear.
If I might ask, why only spank one and not all three?
lezlers, you post
and then close with
That really is pretty funny. Good show! But, something tells me the tasty irony is lost on you. You probably think you’re being quite clever. Now please go do your homework. You’ve got to get up early tomorrow for that math test.
You make it sound like I bought one of them a cookie, but not the other two! 
Our oldest daughter went through a phase of unrepentant lying, and that, all three times she was spanked, was what prompted the spankings. She didn’t seem to respond at all to any other forms of discipline when it came to lying. My middle daughter is very emotionally sensitive, and a stern look is all it takes to correct her! My youngest is only 3 and 1/2, so it’s a little early to tell about the lying thing; but so far, she’s responded quite well to time-outs. One or two time-outs for a single type of misbehavior has sufficed to get the point across. Oh, yeah, I had to give her three time-outs (three minutes each) before she learned that grabbing things from people was not acceptable. skid row, your parents were monsters (as were mine, although they never laid a hand on me, but that’s a whole 'nother story), I am not. I hope you see the difference.