In olives’ massive thread about her first time watching Buffy and Angel, the question was raised over whether the people who dislike Buffy: Season 6 and the people who dislike Angel: Season 4 overlap in any way.
So here’s the poll, with two very simple questions…
I loved AtS S4 from start to finish. Every bit of it. I used to hate S6, and my feelings have warmed towards it, so I can’t say if I really like it or I really dislike it.
I never watched most of Angel season 4, because I loathed Connor. The finale of the season’s arc was OK, but not enough to salvage that it was a horribly Connor-centric season.
Buffy Season 6 was marred by the presence of Marti Noxon and her personal issues and demons. It had some outstanding episodes, but those were exceptions. Angel Season 4 was a Connor-centric debacle. I hated the very existence of the character, and what they did with him made it even worse.
I liked Buffy S6, but I hated Angel S4. There were a few good episodes in the beginning, but things quickly went downhill afterward. I think the whole Jasmine arc was pretty stupid and ridiculous. I remember actually falling asleep while watching a couple of the later episodes in that season.
I stopped watching Angel with the whole Connor storyline and them getting all “dark and edgy”, or well, more than they were. I only came back for the fifth season, which redeemed the show.
I like Buffy S6 and adore Angel S4.
Angel season 4i is up there as the best “buffyverse” season. So is season 5, actually.
Buffy Season 6 is weak in parts, but still excellent and better than nearly all other shows on TV.
I’ve not seen anything in season six but “Once More With Feeling,” so I don’t know if I liked Buffy season 6, but I did like Angel season 4. Granted, I started with the early part of season 3, missed a bunch, caught back up in season 4 and Conner was already grown up. I only later went back and got the backstory. Maybe in order, it was more annoying.
I disliked season 6 the first time I watched it, enough that I never bothered to give it a second watching. In retrospect, I think most of the episodes were fine, but they were in service to a season arc that was horribly mishandled. It had some strong ideas, but part of my frustration is that it seemed so obvious how they could have reworked things to make it much, much stronger, that it really aggravates me that they took it in the direction they did.
Angel season 4, on the other hand, is simply one of the best seasons of television ever made.
Season six of Buffy was pretty good. I’d rank it as my third or fourth favorite season.
The fourth season of Angel is the worst thing ever produced by Joss.
I voted I hated both of them, but I think I made a mistake. I hated the last season of Angel, which I now think is Season 5. The season before that wasn’t great, but wasn’t terrible.
Season five was when they were working in the law office, if that was the one you were thinking of.
Season 5 was also the single best season of Angel.
(FTR, I liked Buffy season 6, since I never mentioned that in my earlier post.)
I liked season 6 of “Buffy” well enough, although I have problems with the structure of the season that have been thoroughly covered elsewhere.
I pretty much hated “Angel” Season 4. The assassination of Cordelia’s character arc was bad enough, but they had to go and give the most annoying emo teenager in the world significant screen time to boot. Ugh. It also didn’t help that the season-long story arc careened from one ridiculous plot twist to the next with such wild abandon that it was painfully obvious they were making it up as they go along. I know Joss doesn’t usually plan his major plot arcs too far in advance, but he usually does a better job of hiding that fact. Rather than emerging organically from the story, it felt like the twists came from a writer’s room that was both out of ideas and desperate to keep the audience’s attention. “Aw shit, what the hell do we do now? We’re losing audience share fast! Oh wait, how about we have Evil Cordy make out with the giant monster?”
Ironically, Connor’s episode in season 5 is one of my favorites, and I love his cameo later in the season. Vincent Kartheiser is actually quite a great actor (he’s won numerous plaudits for his work on “Mad Men”), and he gets to show off his range in season 5. My dislike of the character in season 4, therefore, stems entirely from the way he’s written. It’s not that he’s an angry teenager - as someone who was quite the brat as a teenager, I have no inherent problems with the archetype. I also don’t subscribe to the “characters must be likeable people in order to be likeable characters” philosophy of writing. There are plenty of Great Characters who you wouldn’t want to hang out with.
I just think the troubled teen character was executed poorly here. It has been done well in the past: Harry Potter circa “Order of the Phoenix,” Logan Echolls, Faith from “Buffy,” etc. The difference between these characters and season 4-era Connor is that, underneath the anger and sullenness, you can always see consistent motivation and a basic level of intelligence that allows you to empathize with the character despite his or her bad behavior. Their anger may not be justified, or even “correct” given the backstory provided, but it is understandable, and the audience feels for them even as they’re doing terrible things to the protagonists. Connor’s arc had similar potential - he was set up with a fantastic motivation (raised by the man who hated his father most!). But rather than explore that conflict in detail, they folded his arc into the Cordy/Jasmine ridiculousity and set up the most bizarre-for-the-sake-of-bizarre relationships in Whedonverse history. And they had him endlessly whine about the same damn things, episode in and episode out. It’s like Buffy’s endless speechifying in Season 7, but delivered with petulant pouts and self-righteous sneers. Blarrgh.
Edited to add that season 5 is, indeed, the best season of Angel. Although season 3 comes close.
Right. That was the terrible season.
No, that was the amazing season. Season 4 is the one that sucks donkey balls.
Both those seasons were just so damn depressing. All darkness and shadows, everyone whining and crying all the time. It got pretty tiring.
Everybody dies in season 5. Cordelia dies, then Fred, who’s the nicest character ever to appear on TV dies, then they save Lindsey by dumping Gunn in hell to torture him forever, then Gunn gets out, but Lindsey dies, and then Wesley dies, and then the last scene of the last episode, everyone is about to die (I guess they made some comic book later on that says that everyone didn’t die, but still).
Remember the first two seasons when he was a detective and saved people from evil demons? That was a fun show.
Like does not cover my feelings for Angel season six. It’s love, baby. Love, love, love. Its biggest flaw was that, once the big arc got started, you had to watch every goddamn episode. Not to keep up with the story, but because it was so damn engaging.
B6, by contrast, is worse than bad, even though it has the single best episode of any Joss show. (Except perhaps for Dollhouse; I haven’t seen any of that.) But, ye god, it was bad.
Angel season six? Typo, or are you talking about the comic book?