You're GAY! You're out of the family!

The BBQ Pit
81

[QUOTE=Priceguy]
Who says we have one? We’re not machines. We’re not built. We’re not designed. We’re just here, the way we are. Now we get to do what we want. Great, isn’t it?
[/quote]

Yep. And we wouldn’t still be here if our families hadn’t been reproducing all this time.

No, I haven’t either. That’s why it’s a theory. I’d be rather curious to find some actual cases of this happening, and how the parents reacted.

Congratulations (no, that’s not meant to be sarcastic). Will you have a part in raising the child? I know if I did that, but had no part in raising the child, I’d feel pretty jipped/used. Get back to us some years down the line and if you still feel fine about it, kudos to you - I may even change my perception of things. But I won’t hold my breath.

Yeah, I care. I think it means something, but not necessarily what such people as the Crown Princess of Sweden have traditionally assumed. I’m not concerned with social status - I just want to be sure that the woman I have a child with will be the best mother available, and that our resulting children be strong and happy.

[QUOTE=What Exit?]
Do you really think that is how it works? What makes you think they don’t talk to a friend and get help. I have heard of the Partner that is not planning to get pregnant getting her brother to contribute. That should take care of the chromosome dilemma for you quite well.
[/quote]

Since Priceguy is in this very situation, see my response to him.

[QUOTE=What Exit?]

I also wonder if this means you are not only apparently against gays and adoption but also any couple that makes use of sperm donors?
[/quote]

I’m not against gays nor am I against adoption. I’m not against couples that make use of sperm donors. I’m saying that it’s not for me, and attempting to clarify why.

82

[QUOTE=Rigamarole]

You can adopt, but it’s still not your kid.
[/QUOTE]

I have 2 sons. One I adopted, and one is biological.

You’re wrong.

Ta-ta little boy, run along now and let the nice grown-ups continue with the conversation.

83

[QUOTE=Rigamarole]
…snip…
I’m not against gays nor am I against adoption. I’m not against couples that make use of sperm donors. I’m saying that it’s not for me, and attempting to clarify why.
[/QUOTE]

Well you have a funny way of expressing your opinion. I think you have probably manged to insult adoptive parents and gays at the very least so far. You irked me just for the poorly thought out logic you are using that you then feel you have to justify. You make insulting statements suggesting people use Craigslist and then instead of apologizing you insult Priceguy for being a very nice guy in a situation were many men would not.

Jim

84

[QUOTE=Weirddave]
You’re wrong.
[/QUOTE]

OK.

85

[QUOTE=Rigamarole]
Yep. And we wouldn’t still be here if our families hadn’t been reproducing all this time.
[/quote]
Nice dodge. We don’t have a “main function”, as you claim.

I told my parents several years ago that I wouldn’t have children. They weren’t happy, and I didn’t expect them to be. They didn’t say anything that was even a percent of a percent of a tiny iota of a percent as heinous as what parents of children coming out say with disturbing regularity.

Oh, and it’s a hypothesis, not a theory.

We’ve discussed this at length already, and when the day comes, we’ll discuss it a hell of a lot more before we do it, with her girlfriend involved in the discussions, of course. Basically, I will not be a full-time father, acting more like a kind of favourite uncle or something. If you want details, I can give you details (up to a point; it’s pretty personal stuff).

So your genes are so damn excellent that any child of another father will automatically be less strong and happy?

86

[QUOTE=Rigamarole]
OK.
[/QUOTE]

Well. If this isn’t sarcasm, then good. Ignorance fought successfully. Sorry about the “little boy” crack, but trust me, they’re both my sons. It’s kinda a sore spot when people assume that Matthew isn’t as “real” a son to me a Jimmy. Christ, I almost wish that was the case, he’s becoming a teenager, with all that entails, and there’s times when I wish I could ship him back! :stuck_out_tongue: (j/k)

87

All this talk about biological versus adopted kids makes me chuckle. As a former childless man who did not care if he became a father or not and now the father of two children I can tell you that I was totally unprepared for the wonderful loving emotion that descended upon me as I looked upon the little child that I had previously committed myself to for reasons that aren’t quite clear to me, but I’m quite certain that gene preservation wasn’t even in the cards.

I’m also quite certain that Rigamarole is not a parent or he/she would be singing a different tune.

88

[QUOTE=Rigamarole]
You can adopt, but it’s still not your kid.
[/QUOTE]

Woo boy! I don’t think you’ve yet experienced some of your own fundamental “man wiring.”

A woman doesn’t necessarily get all that much choice about bonding with her kid. She carried the damn thing for nine months and gave birth to it.

But men? The first time you hold that little thing in your arms. It’s tiny. It’s helpless. You put your index finger next to it and it reaches out and clasps onto your finger, which is larger than its whole hand, and you bond with it. That is your kid. When that happens, it’s an instant bond that is stronger than the one you have with your wife, stronger than the one you have with your brothers & sisters. It’s strong, and it doesn’t depend on whether the little creature has your genes or not. It’s your kid.

You can’t see how making a statement like “it’s still not your kid” is just gonna piss off all kinds of people? Especially men who have experienced the father-bonding process?

89

[QUOTE=What Exit?]
Well you have a funny way of expressing your opinion.
[/quote]

Perhaps.

If they feel that way, so be it, but I have nothing against them.

Replace “justify” with “clarify”. I don’t have to justify anything, but I’m choosing to clarify to responses when it’s clear that many are misinterpreting and reading into what I’ve said.

I did not suggest anyone use craigslist. But now that you mention it, it’s a pretty good service. I found my apartment and several jobs there, and I just sold my guitar amp on it. I did say I wouldn’t want my baby’s other parent to be a random patron of the site.

I don’t know if Priceguy was insulted by my response to his situation, but I am actually intrigued by it. I said that I would not do the same, but I’d like to know how it turns out for him.

[QUOTE=Priceguy]
Nice dodge.
[/quote]

Am I wrong? Where did you come from, so that you can “just be here, the way you are, now doing what you want”?

[QUOTE=Priceguy]
So your genes are so damn excellent that any child of another father will automatically be less strong and happy?
[/QUOTE]

Maybe, maybe not. But I like my genes, and I know I can trust them.

[QUOTE=Weirddave]
Well. If this isn’t sarcasm, then good. Ignorance fought successfully. Sorry about the “little boy” crack, but trust me, they’re both my sons. It’s kinda a sore spot when people assume that Matthew isn’t as “real” a son to me a Jimmy.
[/quote]

It’s an acknowledgement that you can feel that way if you want. But I haven’t changed my opinion. I’m sure Matthew is as “real” a son to you as Jimmy, and as long as you acknowledge you didn’t create him yourself, I’m glad that you love him just as much as if you had - that probably matters more. But I still want to create my own, personally.

90

[QUOTE=Rigamarole]
Am I wrong? Where did you come from, so that you can “just be here, the way you are, now doing what you want”?
[/quote]
You’re not wrong and I didn’t say you were. You’re dodging. Completely different.

How do you know that? Many a person has been unpleasantly surprised.

91

[QUOTE=levdrakon]
Woo boy! I don’t think you’ve yet experienced some of your own fundamental “man wiring.”

A woman doesn’t necessarily get all that much choice about bonding with her kid. She carried the damn thing for nine months and gave birth to it.

But men? The first time you hold that little thing in your arms. It’s tiny. It’s helpless. You put your index finger next to it and it reaches out and clasps onto your finger, which is larger than its whole hand, and you bond with it. That is your kid. When that happens, it’s an instant bond that is stronger than the one you have with your wife, stronger than the one you have with your brothers & sisters. It’s strong, and it doesn’t depend on whether the little creature has your genes or not. It’s your kid.

You can’t see how making a statement like “it’s still not your kid” is just gonna piss off all kinds of people? Especially men who have experienced the father-bonding process?
[/QUOTE]

Since someone else also brought it up - no, I’m not a parent yet. If someone like Weirddave or any adoptive parent can lovingly raise a child that was not born to them, all the power to them. There’s nothing wrong with that, and if they feel good about doing it, all the better.

I see it as a gamble though, since it would feel to me like taking on a project someone else started and then abandoned. I like to start my own projects and see them through to completion. :slight_smile:

[QUOTE=Priceguy]
How do you know that? Many a person has been unpleasantly surprised.
[/QUOTE]

I know that I’ve never had a challenge I couldn’t overcome - so even if my child is born blind or deaf or with three arms and 12 toes, I trust that they’ll be able to overcome their own challenges as well.

92

[QUOTE=Rigamarole]

It’s an acknowledgement that you can feel that way if you want. But I haven’t changed my opinion. I’m sure Matthew is as “real” a son to you as Jimmy, and as long as you acknowledge you didn’t create him yourself, I’m glad that you love him just as much as if you had - that probably matters more. But I still want to create my own, personally.
[/QUOTE]

Your premise wasn’t that Rigamarole can’t adopt without feeling like the child isn’t Rigamarole’s, your premise was “You can adopt, but it’s still not your kid.”. That’s the royal “you” and it implies that nobody can do it. I disprove that thesis. I suspect that you are awfuly young, your attitude here is certainly not very mature.

93

[QUOTE=Rigamarole]
But I still want to create my own, personally.
[/QUOTE]

is a very different statement than:

[QUOTE=Rigamarole]
You can adopt, but it’s still not your kid.
[/quote]

The former implies a personal preference, which is fine: the latter implies that you doubt the sincerity or the legitimacy of the parent bond between non-biological parents and children–that they are just fooling themselves or playing, which is insulting and liable to get people riled up. Wre I you, I’d clarify whether you are standing behind both statements, or just the more personal one.

94

[QUOTE=Rigamarole]
I know that I’ve never had a challenge I couldn’t overcome - so even if my child is born blind or deaf or with three arms and 12 toes, I trust that they’ll be able to overcome their own challenges as well.
[/QUOTE]
Wait. You have never had a challenge you couldn’t overcome, and therefore you have a gene which makes its possessor able to overcome any possible challenge the universe could throw at that person? That’s your contention?

95

[QUOTE=Tamerlane]
'course pedantry probably has no place in this thread, so I should have just stayed out of it.
[/QUOTE]
What?!? Pedantry is the life-blood of the SDMB! I’m shocked and appalled to hear you say this, Tamerlane!
:wink:

96

[QUOTE=Rigamarole]

I see it as a gamble though, since it would feel to me like taking on a project someone else started and then abandoned.
[/QUOTE]

This is also fairly offensive. People place thier children with adoptive parents because, for whatever reason, they don’t feel like they can do a good job. It may be lack of resources, it may be lack of stability, it may be lack of will (though I think this is rare). Whatever the reason, acknowledging that you would not do well as a parent and passing the job over to someone more responsible and compentent than you hardly counts as “abandonment”.

97

[QUOTE=Priceguy]
Wait. You have never had a challenge you couldn’t overcome, and therefore you have a gene which makes its possessor able to overcome any possible challenge the universe could throw at that person? That’s your contention?
[/QUOTE]

He’s a MUTANT! Send in the giant robots! :eek:

98

[QUOTE=Weirddave]
Your premise wasn’t that Rigamarole can’t adopt without feeling like the child isn’t Rigamarole’s, your premise was “You can adopt, but it’s still not your kid.”. That’s the royal “you” and it implies that nobody can do it.
[/quote]

Interesting - I don’t doubt the sincerity of the parent bond one bit. I was saying if you adopt, you didn’t create the child - which is factual. As I acknowledge above, if you love your adopted child just as much, that is surely what’s most important. But I don’t believe the biological heritage of the child doesn’t matter at all, and I stand behind my statement that I want to create my own child.

[QUOTE=Priceguy]
Wait. You have never had a challenge you couldn’t overcome, and therefore you have a gene which makes its possessor able to overcome any possible challenge the universe could throw at that person? That’s your contention?
[/QUOTE]

Something like that. :wink:

[QUOTE=Manda JO]
This is also fairly offensive. People place thier children with adoptive parents because, for whatever reason, they don’t feel like they can do a good job. It may be lack of resources, it may be lack of stability, it may be lack of will (though I think this is rare). Whatever the reason, acknowledging that you would not do well as a parent and passing the job over to someone more responsible and compentent than you hardly counts as “abandonment”.
[/QUOTE]

I didn’t want to have to do it, but I knew someone would make me pull out the dictionary sooner or later.

Merriam-Webster’s:

Main Entry: aban·don
Function: transitive verb
1 a : to give up to the control or influence of another person or agent b : to give up with the intent of never again claiming a right or interest in
2 : to withdraw from often in the face of danger or encroachment <abandon ship>
3 : to withdraw protection, support, or help from
4 : to give (oneself) over unrestrainedly
5 a : to cease from maintaining, practicing, or using <abandoned their native language> b : to cease intending or attempting to perform <abandoned the escape>

Yep. Abandoned.

99

[QUOTE=Rigamarole]
I didn’t want to have to do it, but I knew someone would make me pull out the dictionary sooner or later.
[/QUOTE]

Dictionary, schmictionary.

“I gave my child up for adoption.”

“I abandoned my child.”

Same thing to you, dictionary-boy?

100

[QUOTE=Rigamarole]
Interesting - I don’t doubt the sincerity of the parent bond one bit. I was saying if you adopt, you didn’t create the child - which is factual. As I acknowledge above, if you love your adopted child just as much, that is surely what’s most important. But I don’t believe the biological heritage of the child doesn’t matter at all, and I stand behind my statement that I want to create my own child.
[/quote]

I didn’t want to have to do it, but I knew someone would make me pull out the dictionary sooner or later. . . Yep. Abandoned.
[/QUOTE]

You know, we have this crazy thing in English called “connotation”. Words have implications beyond their most basic definitions, and abandon carries a negative connotation.

Also from M-W ,

Connotation matters.