Quick note to those still looking to pick a fight with me: I’m not arguing, never was, and don’t intend to start now. I feel like I’ve made my point/stance pretty clear. If you haven’t, please read my most recent post (#114) and preferably all the others, and if you still have questions/concerns I’ll be happy to respond tomorrow.
Jayjay and Guinastasia, the answer to both of your hypothetical situations is: I would avoid getting into such a situation in the first place, but if I ended up in it anyway - I’d roll with it and do my best. That’s all anyone can do.
You know Rig, some people say a stupid thing and apologize for it. Some will try to evade and squirm out of it and never admit they said something that was stupid and offensive. I think you have proven what sort of person you are.
Perhaps you can grow from an experience like this and perhaps not. But I suggest you stop the squirming and re-read your own post and maybe apologize to the people you have offended. This would not be myself as I only took exception to your faulty and seemingly flawed logic but rather you should apologize to those who have adopted children or had to put a child up for adoption and to any gay couples that are on the board.
Your final sentence is the best and smartest thing you said tonight, so I do not think you are stupid. Please prove me right.
Jim
That’s totally fucked. I grew up in the upper midwest of the States, and I never saw it that bad, although the “gay torment” could maybe have gotten that bad, if anyone was unfortunate enough to get put up for it. I feel like a total asshole for not standing up for guys who were getting fucked over for not being butch enough, when I myself was getting over because I was butch enough, but gay anyway.
:mad: :mad: :mad:
This quote from the other thread blew a circuit in my brain. She has let herself cross over into Fred Phelps territory, and I don’t know if she can find her way back. FUCK YOUFionn’s female parent, and FUCK YOUFionn’s male parent too, for going along tamely with such a horrible campaign!!! :mad:
Fionn, it will be hard, but I would not allow them into my life after the way they are acting. They are trying to make you “straighten up” and failing that, they want to destroy you. Their twisted sense of honor is at stake. You are much safer mentally, spiritually and physically with them out of your life. I will be thinking of you, and sending good vibes your way and hoping you can get through this and end up stronger and maybe hurting but of sound mind and spirit. Good luck, stay strong.
Adding, maybe someday you can re-establish a relationship with your parents etc., but I would be very wary of any proffered olive branches in the near future. The blind bigotry and hate they displayed are going to take time to purge, and also a willingness to do so. It can only cause harm to you if you let them near enough to abuse you while you are still healing the wounds they gave you. Maybe, someday they will come around in time.
The hole gets smaller and smaller eventually… It never totally goes away, but you have to look at all the great things in life and realize that although you have a small hole in your heart, your ex-“family” are the ones to feel sorry for… They’re missing out on a FABULOUS person’s life…
I’m much closer to my cousins and my father’s sister than I ever was when I was growing up… I stayed totally out of touch because I figured they would all react the same as my parents and brother did when they found out I was Gay.
Instead, they have been amazing - after coming out to them, I talk with them regularly, send emails back and forth, and am definitely part of their lives. There is no longer any need to hide. They understand why I have cut off my immediate family and that has helped a great deal.
Some of them have even jumped in at family functions (Which of course I don’t go to) when my immediate family tries to say something negative about me. Now ** that ** is family!
So because we’re Gay it means we won’t have kids? Tell that to all the Lesbians I know… Most of them have kids… usually with Gay men as the fathers…
And as far as won’t reproduce … Let’s see, in my immediate family - the Gay one (me) could have kids if he wanted to, and the straight one (my brother) ** can’t ** have any… Which is too bad, cuz he’d probably make history - first Neanderthal father in millions of years!
I realize that this is on Page 3, and a little late to answer Ginger’s OP, but I don’t see this being pointed up yet.
DISCLAIMER: THE FOLLOWING IS AN EXPLANATION OF THE REASONS FOR BEHAVIOR, NOT EXCUSES FOR IT.
Please do not berate me for holding these same views. I do not subscribe to them.
I will contain this to people I personally know, or have known during my life. The folks I am talking about are Southern Christians, usually Southern Baptists but not necessarily confined to that.
These folks have been indoctrinted about the (so called) truth of the Old Testament (of the Bible). In that book, homosexual activity is said to be an abomination. These folks are so terrified about the teachings of the Bible that they automatically follow what the leaders teach. They are genuinely afraid that if they step one foot out of the limits prescribed, they are Doomed to Hell. They would rather live severe lives without risking Damnation. These are the kind of folks whose pastor likes to hit you over the head with a Bible. They are not allowed to think for themselves.
They are operating out of Fear. And as we all know, fear can make people do some crazy things. It may be hard to wrap your head around, but these people would disown a child before admitting he/she were gay, or allowing them into their home if they married outside their “race”. I myself love my children unconditionally, whether straight, gay, tatooted, purple haired or what have you.
Like I said, I don’t subscribe to it, but there it is.
You can’t stop someone from thinking for themselves. These people have chosen to be stupid and ignorant. Through stupidity and ignorance, they have become evil.
First I want to give my support to Fionn and tell her that I think its incredible how she has handled this situation.
I wanted to concur also on how deeply these beliefs can sometimes be. I grew up in a very evangelical household and my mother :eek: is the one who ended up “coming out” (and leaving my father and a 20 year marriage).
She was very, very slow about coming out. I had friends who knew she was “out” before I did (she moved in with a lady from her softball team who was also getting divorced- it took many years before it was really acknowledged that she left her marriage for this person. ).
All four of us kids were raised Christian by my mother’s own example, which was always exceptional. My mother takes the cake in the "do unto others’ department and I have no doubt she was a deep believer at one time. I imagine (although none of us ever talk about it) the blow to my father was devastating yet even he managed to remain fairly civil and has even helped my mother out in some recent financial difficulties (being still with the girlfriend and over 10 years after the divorce.) Maybe it would have been different if my mother was more obvious about her reasons for leaving, but considering the fact I’ve heard all my life from my own family, including my mother, that homosexuality was a grevious sin- I’m always thankful and surprised that my mother’s coming out ended up to be no “huge” (although it was sometimes hurtful at first) deal to her kids. It was a huge deal, however, to her mother and brothers in a critical time- and what a shame really because my mother is the same wonderful person she has always been.
I don’t mean to paint any rosy pictures- because my parents divorce did get ugly at times and horrible things were said. But I think Fionn is doing the right thing by not giving in to the anger and trying to maintain her dignity and moral high ground (not hard in this case!) .
Sometimes, on the wrong side of the sheets. It may be different for your oh-so-wholesome ancestors, but here in Spain we say that “everybody has among his ancestors a king, a jew and a whore”.
My mother was told she could not conceive. In some cultures/historical periods, that would have meant that Dad could divorce her right there.
I wouldn’t have minded an elder sibling, whatever color and gender being the eldest can suck royally, sometimes!
So they have been brainwashed to the point were they don’t even believe in the “All-Forgiving God Part”? What do they do, pick and choose just the most hateful parts of the Bible to subscribe to? Crap, I’m an agnostic, I do not believe in churches but even I can see some of the beauty in what Jesus taught. Why can’t they?
The people you are defending and their minister are just plain scary to me. You paint them as irrational and well trained for doing evil to the world.
Jim
I had a massive flamewar on usenet a few years ago with someone who started out with “What’s wrong with having a child of your own?” It got cleared up when I said something like, “Adoption is a means by which some people have children of their own.” The fellow in question was mortified when he realised what a complete asshole he had been being.
Somehow I don’t get the impression that that clue-by-four of enlightenment will work in this thread.
My husband is strongly of the opinion that a sire and a dam do not a set of parents make; that being a parent is something that is earned by actually doing the work of parenting. His commitment to that work is what will make him a kickass father in a couple of years, not a sperm injection.
signed, not personally insulted but nonetheless a bit offended on behalf of her in-laws, who are the best damn parents she’s ever had the opportunity to meet
Priceguy, I know they are wrong. I never said they were right.
I’m just pointing out that some people can be gripped with such a fear of Going to Hell. Remember, this is the same Bible wherein a guy was going to kill his child because he thought God wanted him to.
Here is an example based on stupid racial attitudes:
I know a young man, S, who comes from a very strict religious black family. When he was sixteen his Mom threw him out of the house. Why? Because he had too many white friends. Seriously.
I also know of white people who think that “separation of the races” is called for in the Bible.
There are some stupid things being preached from the pulpit. Homophobia is one of them.
And accepting those things is choosing to be stupid and ignorant. I never said you were defending them nor that you said they were right, but you did say they were not allowed to think for themselves. With our current technology, that is very difficult to achieve. Everyone can think for themselves, or choose not to, as Fionn’s parents have done.
What Exit? - I’m not concerned with who chooses to take personal offense or not, but I am interested in making sure I’m correctly understood. This has proven quite a battle, as people (for example, DaffyD, post #128), are still prone to getting emotional and taking things out of context, or reading what’s not there. But for anyone who has been reading everything I’ve said and still has an outstanding issue with me, by all means air your grievances - I just want to make sure we understand each other.
You are much safer mentally, spiritually and physically with them out of your life. I will be thinking of you, and sending good vibes your way and hoping you can get through this and end up stronger and maybe hurting but of sound mind and spirit. Good luck, stay strong.
being the eldest can suck royally, sometimes!