You're not a good Christian...

Great Debates
41

I think the reason most Christians don’t worry about their image is that they don’t have to…yet. Despite the bitching I hear about how “secular” our society is, you can’t throw a biscuit without hitting a Christian church, politicians have to swear belief in a deity (almost always Christ) or face political repercussions, and everyone assumes you’re a Christian unless you make a point to tell them otherwise. Christians wield most of the political power right now. So they don’t need to worry if non-Christians are getting a skewed vision of them…what can they(non-Christians) do about it anyhow?

I tell you, if a group of atheists was hassling mourners at a Christian funeral, I’d be making every effort to make sure people knew all atheists weren’t like that. Bad enough that first question I always get when I say I’m an atheist is “why don’t you just steal/murder/lie all the time?” The way people perceive your group does matter, whether your “group” is race, religion or nationality. Do you think George Bush would have gotten away with saying he thought atheists shouldn’t be considered patriots or citizens if there wasn’t a perception that atheists are immoral and un-American? Sure, no one should ever sterotype based on such things, but they do, and are you going to let them get away with it without challenging that? Lots of people do stereotype, and honestly, it could be dangerous for you to ignore this. If you were black and blacks were becoming known as “violent” due to a few extremists, shouldn’t you denounce the extremists or try to show that most blacks weren’t like that?

Christians don’t seem to feel any need to publically separate themselves from their nastier sects, since they’re in the majority. But if you ever lose that majority, is that how you want your religion to be perceived? The extremists are getting the most press now; I think a firm stand against the wackos by the more liberal Christians would help the current perceptions a great deal…and who knows, maybe make the extremists reconsider their position if they realize they’re way out on the fringe of Christian society. Most of them seem to believe that the vast majority of Christians back them; I’d love to see them get some evidence to the contrary.

“Happiness is nonetheless true happiness because it must come to an end, nor do thought and love lose their value because they are not everlasting.”

  • Bertrand Russell
42

Hmmm, they imply that if you believe in evolution, you’ll turn gay? Well, I believe in evolution and… Holy fuck, it’s happened already! I don’t see why it’s considered torture, though…

Modest? You bet I’m modest! I am the queen of modesty!

43

Then may I humbly suggest that perhaps you’re doing it wrong. :wink:

Livin’ on Tums, Vitamin E and Rogaine

44

You know what, jodih? I can tell you are one of them because you and them are alike in a very simple way: Neither the fundies nor yourself knows how to listen and understand someone who doesn’t think exactly like them.

I’m done with you here… You still insist I am saying everyone is like him when I am patently not. And appealing to your sense of logic does not work because you don’t seem to have a sense of logic.

Face it: YOU stereotyped someone who would bring up with displeasure a fundie. When called on it (by more than just I), you simply say the same thing over and over again.

Yep, you’re one of them alright…

45

Okay, I promissed myself I wouldn’t do this, because jodih just DOESN’T GET IT, but I will still answer to her enlightened post, maybe for the benefit of others:

Yes, actually, it is. I am not saying that the stereotypes are a GOOD thing, only that they exist. You admit as much - you do understand the difference between knowing other people feel a certain way and feeling that way yourself, right?

And I maintained all along that this was HIS view, and it DOES coincide with the views of MANY people who identify themselves as a Christian.

A majority? Well, they CALL themselves that, but I don’t know. I hope not.

An absolute? I never said that, and never would.

Both. I gave evidence that others can use to stereotype Christians. Then I said that I PERSONALLY did not fall into that trap.

Oh, so I bring to the attention the views of someone I consider a fanatic - all because I DO think he’s a fanatic and not representative of all Christians (reread the original OP. Again. Third time’s a charm. Notice the part about my friend who aligns himself as a Christian but disagrees with this person? Maybe? Huh? Do ya?) - and I am somehow endorsing his ideology and encouraging others to think you’re all like him?

Wow… I bring up Republican candidates for office all the time… Guess I should change my party affiliation now.

You might want to look up the word “appear” in a dictionary.

People like him makes it APPEAR that all Christians think in a certain way.

Now, notice how if I were to say “people like him PROVE that all Christians think in a certain way” how it is a lot different.

And if you don’t think that people like this bozo put all Christians in a bad light, you’re more delusional than I previously feared.

Oh, and as for “opinion of one,” that is a generalization on your part… Are you saying that NOBODY ELSE thinks the way this dude does?

And point out anywhere where I even implied as much.

I’m waiting.

Still waiting…

A person in a position of power is claiming that Christians have to all think the same way. How you change that fact into, “You think that I think that way” is beyond me.

I did not attribute his beliefs as the beliefs of all Christians.

How many times must this be said before it gets into your head?

Rinse and repeat.

Your feelings of me mean less than the width of a gnats ass hair to me, and I don’t even know if gnats have asses or hair on their asses.

Which is a slightly larger than your ability to comprehend one simple thing that should have been drilled into your head several posts ago:

Me thinking that other people think a certain way does not mean that I personally think that way.

PHIL! HEY PHIL!! I’ll send you a nifty Lynyrd Skynyrd CD if you come to my aid here. Try as I might, I always bow in awe to the way you dispose of arguments such as have been levied against me… The devil needs an advocate!!

46

Good luck, Satan. Phil has tried explaining some things to Jodi (as have I and others) in other threads and ended up coming to much the same place you have here – banging your head against a wall. Once she makes up her mind about something, you can pretty much forget about explaining anything to her. No matter what you say, she will sit there and pound away at the keyboard without comprehension – and then blame you for failing to explain yourself.

47

Satan, I promised myself I wasn’t going to tangle with jodih on this topic again.

As long as the folks like the guy mentioned in your OP, or Jerry Falwell, or Pat Robertson, are the people the media chooses to represent Christianity to the public, and as long as they wield the political power, I will do everything I can to undermine that.

I mean, take Christianity out of the equation–does the average Joe think most homosexuals are like the guy who plays “Bulldog” on Frasier, or does he think they’re like Harvey Feirstein or RuPaul? Why is that? Is that the situation Christians want to be in?

I challenged moderate Christians on one of the other threads you started to take people like this buffoon on, and confront them vocally and frequently. If they care about their religion, and really think it provides a benefit to humanity, they won’t let it be destroyed by these sorts of morons. Polycarp took my point, and so did Dr. Jackson to an extent, but most people seem inclined to let these people continue their campaign of divisiveness and ignorance.

“I love God! He’s so deliciously evil!” - Stewie Griffin, Family Guy

48

Phil: Good points all, but really I’m not looking for you to tangle with jodih about her religious beliefs. I’m merely looking for vindication that people like ME are not responsible for these feelings and that jodih either cannot read or comprehend the writen word.

In other words - Am I guilty of the things she accuses me of?

49

I wasn’t going to chime in here either, but since Satan is throwing around Skynyrd CD’s…

The article in question presents the views of extremists whose interpretation of Biblical passages is, IMO and the opinion of the majority of biblical scholars, wrong. To take those passages from Romans 1, which talk specifically about worshiping the creation instead of the Creator, and apply them to the concept of creationism, is a bit if a stretch. In every translation I have read, Romans 1 was written in the present tense. These things were happening in Rome at that time. To use those verses as prophetic (to “predict evolutionist”) is also a stretch.

But there are extremists in every walk of life. Aways have been, always will be, accept that as fact. There were religious extremists in Jesus’ time. He did not seek them out, though He did correct and rebuke them when they came to Him. This is the path that I choose as well. To chase extremists with the goal of defending the truth is to tilt at windmills. To defend my family, church and community against the teachings of extremists is where I see my duty.

Satan, there was one statement in one of your posts that made me cringe:

According to the article, Rev. Glidden is the pastor of a local church. I would not equate that to a “position of power”. It’s possible, but not a logical conclusion. It certainly could be considered a position of influence, but the scope of that influence is determined largely by the size of the congregation related to the size of the community. That information was not given. He was interviewed because the subjects of the article attend that particular church.

BTW, most religions in general, and all monotheistic religions with which I am familiar, state at some level “You must believe this or be punished”. Wouldn’t be much of a religion otherwise. :wink:

The overwhelming majority of people have more than the average (mean) number of legs. – E. Grebenik

50

From Satan’s OP:

I’m sorry, Brian. Jodi does have a point. IMHO, not one that should have provoked the almost-flame-war a few posts up from this. But a point.

No matter what, the rabble-rousers with the weird theories are going to be the ones that get the press coverage. Sensible atheists like Phil and David are not going to get the coverage that Madalyn Murray O’Hare did (I think I spelled her name correctly?), and the opinions of, say, the Methodist Bishop of Missouri are not going to be covered half so well as the keynote speech at the National Conclave of Fundaloonies.

Posting here, writing to the N&O or the Independent Weekly, is going to get me a minimal amount of attention for what I believe and have to say. And J. Falwell will inform the Teeming Millions that the Indigo Girls should be shot on sight, and get front-page coverage.

Maybe I should come up with something controversial. How about “love everybody as yourself” or “stop judging everybody else until you’ve taken a good look at yourself.” (I picked these up from a bearded Jewish friend, a Capricorn IIRC.)

Yeah, you did say that that loonie tars the rest of us with the same brush. After a moment’s thought, I realize you didn’t mean quite what you posted. But Jodi, who is even rawer than I am about being classed in with the weirdos, took it as a personal slam, and reacted accordingly.

Hello, world? Making a formal announcement:

Jodi, Tom, PM, Jeffery, and I are not mind-melded zealots. Zealots maybe, but with semi-functional minds.

From all accounts, Jesus was a nice guy who got pissed off at judgmental self-righteous types. So do his followers.

I detest Chevy Chase Christians ("I’m a Christian and you’re not, nyah, nyah, nyah).

Now can we stop the infighting and get on with the business at hand?

Anybody got any suggestions how to combat these clowns? Something those of us who happen to believe in the God and the Jesus of the Gospels, not the Zeus-after-having-been-bitten-by-rabid-hyenas those clowns are portraying can do to make people hear our point?

51

Doc: Power is a relative term. The guy has power within HIS church even if he doesn’t within THE church. And judging from the amount of people who have enough power as to get a state like Kansas to reject scientific teaching of evolution, I would humbly sumbit that even if this guy does not have power himself, others like him do.

I guess what needs to be said here is that I have no idea what percentage of people who call themselves a Christian believe that the world is 6,000 years old, but I’ve heard enough people say this that I don’t think this guy is an isolated case.

52

I’ll try. Most mainstream religions in this country are reasonably large and reasonably well funded. Beat the wackos at their own game – use the media. I’ve seen some pretty terrific ads from the LDS. I’ve also seen some sensitive pro-life ads from some foundation. More of that is good.

Additionally, have church leaders meet with the news directors of major media outlets to say, explicitly, “Stop giving the fringe idiots more press than the millions of mainstream believers. When the local Synagogue sends its members to help rebuild a burnt Church (and vice versa), we want that as national news at least as often as you print some congregation-of-one bonehead’s uneducated ramblings.” Insist that stories about fringe sects be labeled as such and contain reaction from mainstream Christians of some authority.

When the second part doesn’t work (it won’t – the media are jackals that way), try again. And again.

Livin’ on Tums, Vitamin E and Rogaine

53

Satan, yes, that is a good point–whatever the extent of this man’s influence, I would guess a large proportion of Christians, especially in “flyover country,” aren’t as contemplative of their faith as some of the people here.

If their pastor tells them that the Earth is 6,000 years old, evolutionism and feminism are godless Commie plots, and homosexuals are all damned, and that they must believe those things to be Christian, they’re going to buy it. And teach it to their kids. And try to teach it in their kids’ schools. You only need to start with a few people to get an idea to spread.

“I love God! He’s so deliciously evil!” - Stewie Griffin, Family Guy

54

Poly: If you take the word “look” out of the snippet of the OP you quoted, you would have a very good point, IMHO.

When you take into consideration the last two paragraphs of my OP which you did not quote, I think it shows my tolerance level to be open-minded.

At this point, I am merely defending myself against jodih’s assertions that I am part of the problem, that I am lumping everyone in with this asshole, when she in fact attacked me based upon, as David noted earlier, what she BELIEVED was there.

In fact, what I said (and everyone got it except for her) was this:

This guy says you’re not Christian unless you reject evolution, and that this one issue is amazingly important to being a good Christian. Isn’t that stupid?

55

Yep, it is.

Now, the spiritual leader of 2.5 million Christian Americans recently spoke out using his house organ on this issue, and said something amazingly irenic and ameliorative, to wit, that one could be a “creationist” in believing that God created and an “evolutionist” in accepting the Darwinian theories. It was good solid reasoning, if you accept his perspective that God does exist, worked through Jesus, and continues to work in the world today, largely through his faithful people.

How much press coverage did that item get? Anybody but me read it?

56

Satan asked:

No. But don’t expect my word to convince her.

Polycarp said:

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. But when somebody within the atheist or humanist or skeptical or whatever movement I’m involved with says or does something stupid, you will see me (and others) step up to the plate and point it out. I have not seen that type of self-critical analysis as much with the types of folks Satan is talking about.

pldennison said:

Precisely! I’m sure you already know this, but I can’t tell you how many creationists I’ve debated who really haven’t the foggiest notion of the science involved. They repeat the mantras taught to them by their local pastors. Things like: “They haven’t found the missing link.” Ask them, “What missing link?” and they don’t have the foggiest notion what you’re talking about. Their pastors didn’t go into detail – just enough to keep them as little zombies.

57

Be careful, David! I think you are saying ALL Christians are zombies! You closed-minded, stereotypical, Godless heathen you! Burn in hell with the rest of the so-called Christians who would think we are of simian descent!

58

Polycarp: Your last post got me thinking about another way to “combat the clowns.” Does there exist, or should there exist, a “Cosmos for Christians?” I’m talking about a big, multi-part miniseries hosted by theologists and scientists and whoever, with full hype, ads in TV Guide, subway posters, etc. There’s about a billion cable channels that would probably love to run/re-run such a thing.

Livin’ on Tums, Vitamin E and Rogaine

59

First Battalion, Clown Containment Task Force, swinging into action:

I have known many obnoxiously close-minded, fire-and-brimstone Christians in my time. I have also known many open-minded, thoughtful, intelligent Christians in my time. Thankfully, the latter have far outnumbered the former. So, why do we hear so much about the fundies? Because they have well-funded organizations to speak their views, like the Christian Coalition and the now thankfully defunct Moral Majority. What this nation needs is a well-funded organization devoted to spreading the views of the non-fundaloonies. I’m sure this can be done, a lot of non-fundamentalist individuals and churches have a lot of money, the question is “Why haven’t they?”. Anyway, such an organization would have my support, even though I’m not a Christian, because getting some opposing Christian views into the debate would be the best thing for everybody in the long run.

60

I’m actually a little surprised by all this, because my posts weren’t intended to be “flaming” and because this isn’t a topic that upsets me even a little. I didn’t take the original post as a “personal slam;” I just didn’t understand it, and I still don’t.

Satan posts some total idiocy perpetuated in the name of Christianity and then concludes “this is the sort of thing that makes all Christians look like mind-melded zealots.” My point – which I’ll make AGAIN – is that I don’t see why that necessarily follows. Why does it make all Chistians appear that way? Since I didn’t receive a satisfactory answer from him (“Because it does.”), I’ll answer it myself: It makes Christians appear that way because people who don’t know any better assume that Christianity is nothing more than what they read in the press and because, for Christianity as for every other affiliation, it’s the sensationalism and the idiocy that gets the press.

But my point is that most of the people who post here should know better than to assume Christianity is nothing more than that, or is in all cases that. Satan says he does know this. So, in light of this personal knowledge, why would the words of one Christian make all Christians “appear” to be mind-melded zealots if an individual knows in fact that they are not? In my mind, the conclusion drawn simply doesn’t follow, and that’s the point – and the only point – I was trying to make.

If you want to carefully distinguish between saying that people are “mind-melded zealots” and saying that people appear to be “mind-melded zealots,” that’s fine with me; I understand the importance of linguistic precision. I think you can see, however, that the distinction between “is” and “seems to be” can sometimes be pretty fine, as in: “I didn’t say you were a moron; I said you appear to be a moron.” This is beside the point, however, since the original post, however phrased, didn’t offend me so much as puzzle me.

For me, the irony here is that so many people take issue with moderate Christians because we do not “stand up” for the voice of reason and against being lumped in with extremism and fundamentalism that does not accurately reflect our faith. But when I attempt to do just that thing – by pointing out that one man’s extreme and illogic viewpoint should not make every other adherent of this particular faith “appear” to be anything – I’m jumped on as “flaming” and as being hyper-sensitive about my faith. The people who told me to start standing up on these issues were you guys. I’m sorry if the way in which I tried to make my point got Satan’s knickers in a twist, but I still believe the point itself is a valid one.

David, way to add nothing productive to the debate. I wouldn’t have thought irrelevant, third-party attacks on people were your style, but I guess I’ll keep that in mind. If you have a problem with me, however, I’d invite you to address me directly. That “she doesn’t” and “she never” stuff as if I’m not here is pretty junior-high, don’t you think?