The police exist to enforce laws. Unfortunately, or very fortunately for some of us, there are few laws that limit assholeish behavior and even those limit police action to arresting the guilty parties, who usually pay a fine and are back on the street in a few hours. Sometimes the people do not go quietly and the cops use physical inducements (tasers, mace, and billy clubs) to encourage cooperation but that’s it. Somebody who is bound and determined to be an asshole will, upon paying his fine or serving an extremely short sentence, go right back and take up where he left off.
This is where the community enters the picture. A community, the family and friends of the victim, has the ability to enforce standards of behavior that, if nobody squeals, goes beyond the official limits, and it sounds like the Bakersfield PD understands the value of community. It is unfortunate that Phelps is so good at attracting publicity because that means there will be people present from outside the community who might feel a need to videotape the proceedings. This limits community action; somebody might think they can prove that the entire Phelps family did not accidentally fall down five flights of stairs. However, the Wiki photo of WBC member Charles Hockenbarger shows that, even on a busy New York street, a fellow can, uh, walk into a door with no witnesses.
I believe I speak for the majority of Americans when I say that, if I were present when family, friends, and, in the case of military personnel, professional collegues of Pfc. Villatoro beat Phelps and his pals into grease spots on the pavement, I wouldn’t see nothin’.
And I’m back (with swollen tonsils and all…ick!) to answer some of your questions.
As far as I know, there is now bagpipe arrangement in the works. I think the family wants to aknowledge the crazies as little as possible. A family friend posted this on his blog:
Someone mentioned how they wish these idiots could be rounded up and sent to Gitmo, funny you mention that. The Army guy who will be brining his soldiers to the funeral (I am not entirely sure of his rank, but it’s pretty high up) explained to the family that, due to the Patriot Act, the protesters don’t have to do too much to get beat down. He also said that the military/police/ etc aren’t going to wait long for a reason. Regularly, I wouldn’t agree with this (or the Patriot Act…it makes me feel dirty), but this seems like appropriate action.
Duffer, although I agree that these people get what they deserve- leave it to the PD and Military. They can and will take care of these idiots (trust me, this is how Bakersfield operates) and be completely lawful in doing so. If anything, feel free to come to the service, walk by those idiots, and don’t give them the time of day. I know nothing would mean more to the wife than a church packed full of people.
teela brown- I know a bunch of soldiers are coming as well as some people from the other branches. I know some Marines are planning on attending to help keep the peace.
dropzone, if they say a word to Amanda, I guarentee that will be the case.
I still like the idea of people singing the “I Love You” Barney song at Phelps & crew. Especially if they’re wearing something like “Queer and Proud of It!” or “We Forgive You, Fred!” shirts. He can’t sue people who are being nice to him, even if they’re the people he hates most. The stress might even generate a massive (but non-fatal, 'cause I wouldn’t want to wish death on him) stroke. At worst he’d get an earworm that will drive him buggy for days.
Oooh! I had forgotten about that! While vigilante justice is fun and effective there’s nothing like having the entire US gummint and military covering your back.
(sigh) I really hope nothing bad happens to anybody. Amanda doesn’t deserve it and she’s had enough crap she didn’t deserve happen to her already. Please give her my condolences.
No, if you check their website they have a long, long string of soldier funerals they say they will picket. They also say God is personally directing the death of these soldiers, and they wish it was a lot more. It’s the WBC’s latest schtick, but they have been picketing funerals for over 13 years.
This morning, I thought I might be coming down with a cold, but now I’m feeling better. If I did have a cold, I’d be highly tempted to try to give it to Phelps.
But I’d be worried that, as a demon, he couldn’t catch a cold from a human (a friend and I decided that it was futile for me to hope that my thermodynamics professor would catch the flu from me for the same reason).
That would be me. As much as I dislike portions of the Patriot Act, I think if they are going to crack down on Extremists around the world, they should not turn a blind eye to the extremists right under our noses. Although Phelps has not done anything violent yet (not that I know of), he should be put on a watch list at the very least. Vocal and active protestors get put on those lists all the time and his actions are unpartiotic and violence-inducing. I think freedom of speech should be protected, but I think causing people distress to this level should be kept under tight scrutiny. Tell your friend to find a lawyer, she may need one if she has any complications with her pregnancy resulting from his harassment.
Fred Phelps and his followers have commited violence though.
Bolding mine.
I’d say threatening women with sexual assault constitutes violence, wouldn’t you? Not to mention:
Also, he beat his wife and children horribly, probably still does. (See the Addicted to Hate site.) I can only hope that for once, the Patriot Act does some good, and these sorry bundles of DNA get sent to Gitmo. Especially since they have even picketed the 2005 inauguration of George W. Bush, so no doubt Arnie dislikes Phelps and his crew intensely.
Oh, the WBC has committed violence itself. During one of their early pickets, a jogger tried to go on through them(they were blocking the sidewalk) and the WBC’ers took him down. They also “took down” the minister of a church that I was attending. The picketers shrieked abuse at the congregation during an outdoor service. So afterwards the Rev. Weeks took a yard sign that proclaimed “God’s Love Speaks Loudest” and walked up near the sidewalk the Phelps were on. Mine you, he was still on church property. As he used a hammer to pound in the yard sign the hammerhead popped off. The Phelps claimed he was actually threatening them with the hammer, so FOUR of their young guys surged onto church property, against one tubby, gray haired minister. They wrestled him to the ground, sat on him, and when the cops arrived charged Rev. Weeks with assault. :eek: So the church had to counter-charge. Nothing really happened though, but the fact more people didn’t speak up for my pastor was a factor, after he left, in my searching for another church home. As Rev. Weeks told me, “I thought I was going to die with two tons of Phelps on top of me.”
Yea, they’ve picketed my current church a lot too. Since I live in Topeka I see them a lot, and I bet I could top almost anyone ugly story for ugly story.
But the hard part is not descending to their level. I believe their worst statement, or belief, is that some people are beyond redemption. They actually say it’s a sin to pray for this country, and that fags(anyone they don’t like) can’t be saved. So if I don’t agree with them I have to believe that even the Phelps could be turned around. If Saul of Tarsus could become St. Paul, then even Fred could come around too.
From what I can tell, mainly going by the expose mentioned earlier (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/michael_haggerty/expose3.htm don’t recall who to thank for the link), Fred Phelps’s primary motivation for his pickets isn’t so much his twisted theology or even homophobia, but rather a lifelong love of hurting other people. He has proven especially fond of using the court system to harrass others and to force them to settle to avoid lengthy litigation. At one point shortly before the federal courts disbarred him, his family had over 200 cases pending before Kansas’s federal court. He sued Sears for $50,000,000, in a case that took six years before settling for $126, over a TV placed on layaway that he didn’t feel was delivered soon enough.
Fred Phelps is simply a truly rotten individual, who uses religion as a tool to serve his evil ends and his desire to hurt other people. As his kids are all grown and he can no longer get away with beating and torturing them, he has expanded his targets of abuse to include anyone he thinks he can get away with hurting. Fred Phelps is a man who created a theology in order to justify him calling pregnant teenage widows to call their recently deceased husbands fags, not the other way around.
I don’t even know why people give him such attention. Nobody should debate him. Nobody should interview him. He has a church that’s not even the size of the Branch Davidians before Waco, IIRC, and who the hell ever heard of David Koresh before the BATF took an interest in him?
I suppose that the only real upside to all this is that I can’t see the church being able to stay together if Fred dies. The WBC seems to be entirely a product of one warped vision. As far as I can tell, he insisted that his children study law, not theology, so I doubt that any of them can muster even the thin veneer of theological legitimacy required to be able to get anyone to consider it a church.
I’m not entirely sure that’s true. I put Phelps as one step below Chick, because as far as I can tell, Chick believes in God, albeit a warped, narrow-minded view of God, but still, he believes. Phelps uses God as a weapon and a shield in his lawsuits, which is his source of income. For him, it’s not about religion. It’s about trolling hard enough to get people to bite back, and then he can sue. $50,000,000 over a TV set on layaway? That’s nuisance suits, not about believing you’re being religiously discriminated against.
So, I fear his kids and grandkids will be more than willing to continue in his foul footsteps, especially since they’ve been trained in law and not theology. It’s not about God. It’s about pissing enough people off so they get mad enough to attack you, and then suing them. Wrapping themselves up in God is just their way of claiming First Amendment protection.
The wake is going on right now, but I am sick as a dog and not in attendence. I will be heading to the funeral in the morning, though.
The loca news was just showing clips of people walking into the funeral home. Within a few hours (it has been three so far), there has already been 300 vistors. They expect thousands at the funeral tomorrow. The funeral home has been bombarded with calls from all over the country- all people wanting to help Amanda and Ramon III (the baby boy who she plans to name after her husband).
Upside: there will be thousands of kind people to throw down some crazy ass protesters if need be.
I’ve never heard of this guy or his church before - but that’s the other side of the world for you!
I cannot, cannot understand this. There are just not enough words in the language to describe how disgusting these people are. I wonder if God ever regrets giving us free will…
Well, think about it. How many people have rallied around in outraged support in protest of Phelps?
He’s the evil that makes us forget our petty differences. Not that I will shed a tear when he finally shuffles of this mortal coil, but it’s an ill wind that blows no good.
They do have a history or proclaiming they will show up somewhere, then not following through. It looks “good” on their picketing schedule, to have so many names, and it get people riled up without having to actually do anything.
But this combo, the Governator and all, I sure hope you really don’t have them there.
