This thread was taken out of the context of a lengthy discussion. It completely misses and even distorts my True intentions.
I was trying to make the distinction between being a Christian (in Spirit) and being a CiNner (Christian in Name only). It seems to be quite insulting to some to be called either.
They do not seem to share in my understanding that, in our own Way, We are All (including me) both. It seems they would prefer to bicker and distort and to call names than to pursue Equality and Justice and Truth.
ItS
r~
Sorry to interrupt your hijacking with the thread topic, but…
And what exactly is your problem with that? If someone isn’t having the outrageous arrogance to say that atheists are good people too, because we’ve seen just how horrible a statement that is, then what’s wrong with taking the philosophy that all theists are worshipping the same higher power that we all interepret differently?
And, I’m sure felt very wry and insightful as you were doing so. But you understood the concept behind what she was saying, and recognized it as just a case of really inappropriate wording, or else you wouldn’t have recognized its relevance to this thread and brought it up here.
For some believers, Christ is God, and the names can be used interchangeably. The intent of her statement was exactly what I said above – that these theists are choosing different paths to reach the same God – and I still, even after the quote, don’t see what’s head-smack-worthy about that.
P.S. Clothahump is indeed an enormous flatulating asshole.
Christian here, both self-described in name and in spirit.
I wish the whole world could be saved (willing, or dragged kicking and screaming), but unfortunately the words of Jesus himself seem to put an end to that thought.
You know, the whole Way, Truth, and Life thing. And the Narrow Door thing. And the “Few are Chosen” thing. And Jesus talks a lot about Hell, and how not to end up there. (A few fervent followes have taken some of those statements a bit literally and amputated themselves, which is unfortunate, but perhaps admirable.)
It’s not our job to judge, yes. It’s our job to make Christianity attractive, yes. But we also have a Gospel that we’re not supposed to adulterate with other stuff. There can be no Good News (you can be right with God, and save 15% on your car insurance) if there is no Bad News (sorry, bud, but you’re not on the winning team no matter how nice or good you are; the Captain has to pick you).
And the problem comes when people confuse your simplistic “I win, you lose” interpretation of existence, with what the rest of us, who are inclusive without being simple-minded, are saying.
So those of you who do believe that it all comes down to God’s chosen people, accuse us of watering-down Christianity.
And those who don’t bother to listen to what we’re saying but instead choose to lump us in with you, accuse us of trying to convert them.
I don’t share your understanding either. In fact I wouldn’t say you have any understanding. And I’m another person who’d be insulted if anybody called me a Christian. I’ll wait for you to get a clue.
Ack, I should have read a bit more. I kind of condensed the whole Christianity thing because I thought everybody here knows it forwards and backwards already.
So let me clarify myself.
This is what I believe:
It’s not my place to judge who is, or isn’t, going to Hell. That’s God’s business. God says (not me), that you’re either on the Winning Team or the Losing Team.
Works (good behavior, religion, proselytising, acting like an obnoxious prick) is not a qualification for being on the Winning Team. That’s the Bad News.
God provided, by Grace, 'cause He’s such a nice guy, one way to be with Him eternally. That’s the Good News.
I have no doubt that I have brothers and sisters in other faiths who are in the true Spirit of Christianity, and I’ll be very surprised to see who makes it in come that last day. (Conversely, there might also be a lot of self-proclaimed Christians who will be shocked to discover that all along, they never knew Jesus!)
But I can’t assume that all the people in the world are closet Christians and therefore don’t need me to share the Good News to them. That would be irresponsible (and disobedient, since Jesus himself told us to go, baptise, and teach). And that’s my beef with the OP.
I’m pretty sure he says that he’s the ONLY one who gets to make the call, so this does nothing to lessen your presumptuousness.
For the rest of us, the bad news is that you’re a self-important, preachy jackass. The good news for you is that since you’re a self-important, preachy jackass, you don’t care. Life’s funny.
They haven’t elected me spokesman, but I’ll vouch for them and say they don’t need that at all. Deal with your own personal problems, Christianity has already caused its share of trouble for other people.
I will point out that in my big fat Unabridged, there are two meanings of “Christian” that do not nessesary require being a follower of Jesus:
6 “Human, not brutal, humane” (this is without debate not related to faith)
“a person who exemplifies in their life the teachings of Christ” (umm, maybe )
Don’t mean to derail this trainwreck, you all carry on, and have fun.
But yes, I’d have to say that it would appear to me that Zev gets at least one of these (maybe two), despite not being a follower of Jesus in any way shape or form. Well, except that some of Jesus’s teachings are quite close to Rabbinical teachings, of course. (The Historical Jesus may have been a student of Hillel’s teachings. In some ways Hillel *might *be considered the “First Rabbi”.)
So Marley23, you are “pretty sure” what God has to say and dotchan is the one who’s presumptuous? You should relax, he’s not saying anything radical or from my perspective offensive. Pretty lightweight witnessing for you to get in a twist about.
No, I’m pretty sure the I know how that ‘judge not’ thing goes. As a very well-read Christian I spoke to the other day put it, Christians are “to judge what’s right and wrong for ourselves, but… not to pass judgment on each other.” I’m pretty sure this “winning team/losing team” bullshit is the latter.
But he’s not judging. He’s not saying, “People who do X go to Y.” He’s merely stating that, yes, God does judge us, but nothing about the criteria for who gets judged or which of us is going to be on the “winning team.” Fuck, he even explicitly says that you don’t have to be a Christian to be on the “winning team.” What more do you want from him?
Very non-judgmental of him. He says himself that he’ll ‘probably be surprised by the result,’ (knowing for sure he’s in, of course). I thought the whole idea was that god judges and you don’t know what he judges. That doesn’t wash with ‘people who do X go to Y.’
Wow. That’s about the stupidest description of religion I’ve ever heard. And for the SDMB, that’s saying quite a bit.
So God, a being with infinite power and omniscience, goes to the trouble of creating the universe, inhabiting it with souls, putting those souls into human form for 70-some odd years on average, letting them go through the trials and tribulations of mortal life, and it all ends with “Okay, I’m thinking of a number from 1-100.”
I’m not describing religion, you fuck, I was saying I thought the idea was that while you’re living on Earth you don’t presume to know what god’s going to judge. Lot of damn difference it makes to me in the first place, since this “winning team/losing team” crap remains idiotic.
)