Oh, I guess you didnt see my question…you had attempted to rationalize gzs racist harrasment towards a coworker of middle eastern descent. Instead of conceding that was what it sounds lime, you trivialized the event by saying that although it happened it was of a minor nature. I asked you what would cause you to deem that as minor? It occured in a workplace where racism and harrasment are prohibited …so what about that was ’ minor’? On a repeated basis he openly mocked the gentleman as ’ achmed ’ , telling him to go be a suicide bomber, terrorist etc. It was to such a degree it was causing the coworker to be very distressed and he even considered whether he should beat him up to get him to back off. He didnt of course but went to the hr dept etc. It was very concerning you would feel this to be no biggie. Did gz need to publicly lynch said coworker in order to NOT be minor?
I believe that his wife was charged with perjury because they didn’t disclosed the monies they were receiving from donations. I, admittedly have paid little attention to that. He and his family could not work or have their locations known because of threats they were receiving. I wonder how far the this perjury charge can go considering these facts, and that they were relying on strangers sympathy to live. Also, if you are going to go by his actions, don’t forget that he also complied and assisted law enforcement in anyway he could in the investigation and while he has some questionable issuesin this past, he also has some good deeds as well.
You are right about cases such as this and taking the Zimmerman’s word on everything. That is why witness statements were taken into account, injuries were examined, friends and family were interviewed, background checked and multiple agencies stepping in for their own investigation. This is probably the most investigated self defense case in history and they STILL couldn’t indict Zimmerman. I think that says something.
If someone were “playing chicken” or running at me as though they were going to hit me, then I could in theory consider it a threat in both cases. Other factors would play in. My brother doing this would not raise any red flags, but a stranger, I would feel threatened.
Maybe I’m confused… Isn’t your argument that if Zimmerman didn’t racially profile Martin, that he would not have pursued him and started the confrontation that killed Martin? Aren’t you arguing that the confrontation was motivated by race, which you use other calls that Zimmerman made to police to confirm his tendancy to racially profile?
I agree that some family and friends would defend him, but they got 30 and you only have 2.
I don’t know anything about Zimmerman’s dad other than something on this thread saying he wrote a book about black people. I agree with another poster stating that just because dad is racist does not mean Zimmerman is and I don’t really follow your reasoning here.
Well it would depend on what you deem major/minor. Is it major enough that his comments would be enough to brand Zimmerman a racist to the level that his motivations for the shooting can clearly be ascribed to race? No, not to me at least. Is it major enough to be a fireable offense? Yes. Absolutely.
Just because Zimmerman at one point in his life made insensitive comments and did not comport himself in a professional manner does not mean that hate-filled racist motivations dictate each and every one of his actions, day in and day out.
To take the fact that he made crude and malicious comments and ascribe motivation that he decided to shoot someone based on the color of their skin is one major leap of logic.
To expound on another point - even if Zimmerman did target Martin as someone who was up to no good because he was a minority, the outcome, the outrage, the fallout from this comes from the shooting. Deciding to harass someone based on their skin is one level of racism. To pull out a gun and shoot someone based on the color of their skin is another thing. None of these things are even remotely proven in the ancillary character evidence given of Zimmerman’s prior history.
Anyone calling Zimmerman a hero has a deeply flawed understanding of what that word means.
I am basically arguing that. The difference is that the FBI is looking for direct evidence relevant in a court that could be used to bolster a legal case. I am arguing that he was more than likely motivated by some racial prejudice per a everyday standard.
They are not asking the same question, nor using the same standard.
My point is that most people don’t think they are racist even when they clearly are. The company you keep tends to broadly be similar to you, so it’s no surprise Zimmerman’s family and friends don’t think bad thinks about him, or aren’t willing to tell the FBI that. If you want to know he bad things someone does, you don’t ask their friends, you ask their “enemies”.
You are sidestepping the fact this particular incident happened in a place of work…but your labelling of it as just some ’ insensitive comments’ says alot more than you may realize.
This is what is so infuriating about this case. Or should I say, the most infuriating about the anti-Zimmerman crowd. The acceptance of blatantly obvious bullshit as fact without doing research of their own. Zimmerman did not call the cops because he thought a 7 year old was suspicious. He called the cops because the kid was:
“Walking alone & unsupervised on a busy street and Zimmerman was concerned for his safety” (verbatim from the call log).
I don’t think I’ve sidestepped anything.
I think your eagerness to equivocate making racist comments to being murderously racist says more than you realize.
Making terrorist jokes to a muslim person is “just making an insensitive comment.”
I don’t know if you’ve ever encountered actually racist people with legitimately racist viewpoints before but I can tell you that I have. They don’t joke about it. They don’t go around to a person of the race they legitimately hate and mock them. They hate them so much that they don’t want anything to do with them. That’s the level of racism you’re dealing with when you say “Zimmerman acted towards Martin with racist intents.” No 911 calls period. No chance he even lets Martin get close enough to touch him, much less break his nose. Just shots in the chest, and if he had gone with SYG, he would have a 70% chance of getting off in Florida.
I really had hoped this board would hold itself to a higher standard than what I’ve seen in this thread and others here. It’s becoming as bad in here as it is in Reddit.
Although I respect many members of this board, the static-to-noise ratio has grown so much that it is almost as bad as some of those “news” shows where five or six self-appointed experts yammer over each other and pander to their own insular audiences.
Please, SD, don’t become a Reddit.
You may have missed my point in that the harrasment of the coworker occured INSIDE the workplace. You classified his continued racist harrasment of the man as 'minor'. Seeing that this occured inside his job, what else would you expect to see from gz in order to qualify as more than just a minor thing. The coworker stated it occured over a period of time and was repeated multiple incidents of denigrating him as a terrorist, talking in a fake middle eastern accent to mock him, in front of others as well as alone
It was not a one time thing, and the coworker made it clear it was not joking. He became so distraught to the point where he considered beating gzs ass, and how he felt it hard to just eat lunch in the cafeteria.where gz would harnague and humiliate him. Im not sure what else you would expect gz to do to him in a place of work? Jump him, in front of other coworkers ? Again, the coworker stated that gz was not joking.
What do you want me to say about it being in the workplace? I already acknowledged that it was a fireable offense. However, it is certainly mild as far as racism is concerned. It did not progress past anything verbal. It was even mild as far as the severity of the language was concerned. It could have been much worse.
In no way am I saying that this behavior is acceptable. I’m just saying it’s insufficient to pin Zimmerman a racist to the degree where he killed Trayvon because he’s black.
In a way I’m envious of you that you can’t imagine anything more racist than calling a middle eastern man a terrorist in the workplace. The coworker in fact explicitly said it was joking, just not very funny. “It was like middle school, high school humor.”
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/05/18/co-worker-zimmerman-bullied-me-with-racist-taunts/
What would I expect GZ to do to him in a place of work? Other than the fact that this is the extent of what I would expect? Are you asking what I would expect out of someone truly racist? Yes. He could jump him. He could call him worse slurs than just “Ackmed the terrorist.” He could key his car, paint mean things on his car/house. He could bait him, shoot him, then claim self defense.
Again, my point is that the gulf between what Zimmerman did to his coworker and an actual hate crime is so wide, it’s insulting to even be discussing it.
I don’t know what the level of discourse on Reddit is, and I don’t know what your criterion of static vs noise is. Maybe you could offer an opinion on what is SDMB worthy and what isn’t? Or is it one of those deals where if I have to ask, I can’t afford it?
Pancakes,
At this point, I dont know how much more clear I can make it, and makes me wonder if you either dont understand or if you have your own reasons to minimize it at all cost. Let me try to paint tne picture in a different setting to demonstrate the level of racism committed by gz was the highest level anyone could expect to see, GIVEN the setting in which it occured.
For example, comsider the following scenario…a woman reports that at a holiday party, her boyfriend calls her a name when nobody is around, and she walks away, a little while later in front of others he puts her down levelling insults and derogatory names at her. Given the fact it occured at a party with others around, would you say his abuse towards her was only insensitive and minor, because he didnt haul off and deck her?
Also, I dont understand your point about the hate crime and feeling insulted? is your point that the fact gz didnt haul off and kill the coworker some type of ‘proof’ that his mindset was such that he had a mindset that had a setpoint of seeing minorities in a lesser manner , enjoyed dominating and bullying them, and this mindset was at the heart of tm getting shot, in the heart?
To clarify, what would make you feel ‘insulted’ that people consider his past racist acts, for one, the racist acts against his Arab coworker?
You seem to see things in black and white. Because gz didnt shoot the coworker in the heart ‘proof’ that he didn’t go on, a few years down the road, take it to the extreme and commit a hate crime?
I think its insulting to minimize the acts he did to the coworker as just some poor natured ribbing. The coworker made it clear he was not joking around and the nature of what gz said and did was causing him a great deal of distress.
Its clear that gz had a mindset that looked down on certain classes of people, including women, given that he smacked his fiancee around on several occasions and later on his social media page referred to her as an ’ ex hoe’. It seems that he has a very entitled mindset, he is entitled to do what he wants. What was it that he told the police officer who identified himself with a badge and told gz to stand down and gz told him that he didnt give a fuck WHO he was and continued to disobey the officers orders. Who tells a police officer “I dont give a damn who you are”…Somebody who feels such a level of entitlement that they are dangerous to society.
Gz took on the role of watch person in the neighborhood with that same mindset. It is clear from his many calls, mostly for very minor things that a normal person would not call the police for. I believe that his ego and probable sociopathic mindset, along with his views towards certain races fueled his hunger for power, it was the thing that fueled his lust to kill tm that night.
Pancakes,
You do realize that many if not most times a person commits a violent type of crime, they groomed themselves first in a sense, with lesser acts, and over time end up committing the more violent offense?
The fact that gz didnt hunt down his coworker and kill him doesnt mean that he didnt later on, a few years down the road, take his hatred to the most extreme level of it.
Many men for example who kill women, started off doing lesser acts. There was a case some years back in which a man in his late twenties abducted, raped and murdered a girl. It came to light after her murder that a few years prior, this same man had molested a young girl who was his girlfriends daughter or relative. The fact he didnt murder that first girl isnt proof that he wasnt violent ‘enough’ to later take it to another level.
So… you’re saying what GZ said to his coworker was the most racist thing that could have happened in a workplace. Ever? I disagree. He could have said worse things, he could have acted on it either passively or actively. The escalation past making an insensitive comment is immense.
Um, yes?! But I’m sure you’re thinking that calling the girl names is the worst thing that could have happened given the situation. Calling someone names compared to punching them or worse is “only insensitive and minor”. I’m not dismissing the case. I’m not saying it was right. I’m arguing that just because the boyfriend called his girlfriend something derogatory doesn’t necessitate that he is now such a misogynist that he would go out gun down a woman solely because she is female.
To equate someone capable of making a racial slur to someone capable of a hate crime is insulting - to me at least. It trivializes the severity of the situation. I’m not arguing that GZ enjoyed domination and bullying. I agree that he does. I’m just not convinced it was racially motivated. GZ just likes power. It’s not specifically directed at blacks because of a deep seeded bias to that race. It’s directed at anyone that he feels able to lord power over. To gloss over that and to just chalk it up to race is dishonest and I feel like really distorts race relations and conversations about race in general.
The act is racist. I don’t approve. I feel like I’ve stated that with every response I have.
It’s funny because I think you’re the one viewing things in black and white. GZ was racist to his coworker so he must have been racist to TM and thus shot him. I’m arguing that GZ is on the relative low end of the spectrum of racism and we shouldn’t just label the entire thing a racial event. Why? It spreads disinformation and results in assumptions and lies that bely the situation. Instead of the news story of “Asshole got away with murder due to the state of gun control and gun laws coupled with a disproportionately aggressive actions of a rash teenager”, it boils down to “White man kills black boy without repercussion”.
Then we get discussions like this, forcing race onto an issue that has been widely agreed upon by authorities to not be about race.
And so you’re allowing your personal feelings about Zimmerman and his character influence your perception of him. The article I linked to made it clear that the coworker acknowledged that it was jokes. Bad jokes made in a failed attempt to win over his coworkers. Seriously. Read the quotes. Furthermore, the contrary evidence of GZ calling a police report for the 7 year old black child out of concern rather than malice just gets sloughed off because it doesn’t fit your agenda.
Then you’re allowing the fat that I don’t agree with you that the case is racially motivated to mean that I’m sympathetic towards GZ and don’t understand just how horrible a person GZ is. I’m not sympathetic. I think he’s a bad guy. I think he’s an asshole with low self esteem, anger management issues, and an inferiority complex. I do not believe him to be a racist though. I don’t believe that TM died because he was black. That is all I’m saying. I think TM was a victim of partially his own poor decisions and GZ’s ownership of a gun. I believe that GZ got off because of TM’s aggression as well as the state of gun control laws.
I don’t think GZ should have been able to get a gun much less a cc permit. I don’t think he should have been let on the neighborhood watch. “Observe and Report” gets twisted in someone like him into “Protect and Serve.” Hell, I don’t believe that anyone should own a gun any time anywhere period.
However, I have to reiterate that it’s flat out incorrect to use the slippery slope argument and say that a person capable of making racial comments in the workplace will also be capable of stalking and killing someone because of their race.
It also doesn’t mean that he did.
a) There are many examples of molesters who later on did not murder. It would be a much compelling argument if every molester eventually moves on to murder.
b) Molestation is still a worlds’ away from the mere verbal jabs that GZ threw at his coworker. It’d be a lot more compelling an argument that every molester started out by making derogatory statements, then progressed to actual molestation, then eventually murder.
c) If you think making racial slurs groom you to kill, then I would argue that you’re making a very black/white argument as to morality.
Did anyone see Rache Jeantel’s interview on CNN last night? Now she’s claiming that the reason Trayvon ran is because he thought George was a security guard. According to her, the term “cracka” can be applied to people enforcing the law. Why did they ever put her on the stand?
To add to that, Rachel claimed that they showed her the phone records. This is contrary to Crump’s claiming he only interviewed her by phone. Apparently Rachel is claiming that the reason Trayvon ran is because he thought Zimmerman was on the phone with the police. Why would they allow her on television?
Pancakes, I give up…you just dont get it or your own belief system is standing in the way
That article just shows a total lack of understanding about how the legal system works.
And that’s what’s at issue here more than anything.
Here’s the thing- not all actions that are “wrong” are illegal.
I can go follow anyone around, anytime I like and for any reason I want. Nothing illegal there, although it would likely be creepy. And if I’m a licenced CHL holder, I can carry a gun while doing it. Also not illegal. Furthermore, I can be as racist as I want to with the previous two things- also not illegal.
The point when the Zimmerman/Martin incident crossed the law was at the point of the confrontation- in some way or another, there was a physical confrontation, supposedly Martin beat Zimmerman down, and Zimmerman shot him.
So the legal case is strictly concerned with the shooting of Martin by Zimmerman. All that other stuff might serve to show motive, but ultimately isn’t germane to the actual court case. The meat of the case started when the actual confrontation started.
The prosecution was claiming 2nd degree murder, which basically says that Zimmerman killed him intentionally, but not with premeditation. Zimmerman’s defense is that he feared for his life when he shot Martin. So we have 2 contending approaches at this point- the “Zimmerman shot Martin just to see him die” prosecution, and the “Zimmerman was getting his ass handed to him and shot him thinking he’d be curb-stomped and killed if he didn’t.” approach.
It’s unfortunate that Zimmerman is such a dumb-shit, but the ONLY illegal thing he did in this whole thing is shoot Martin, and the presence of the possibility of self-defense was enough to raise reasonable doubts to the jury, so he was found not guilty.
It’s the emotion mixed with ignorance mixed with racism (from either side) that drives me nuts on this. All the crap leading up to it just flat out didn’t matter much in a legal sense, except in the sense that they chose 2nd Degree Murder rather than Manslaughter, which would have been a more attainable charge in light of the evidence, testimony and reasonableness of the defense’s assertions.