For crying out loud, what's the point of the homosexuality debates??

[RexDart]

Jeez, people. Get the frick over it, already.

Guess what, somebody on the danged internet saying he/she doesn't approve morally of homosexuality will not affect your personal life one dang bit. Not at all. Nor would 1,000 people....nor would 1,000,000 people....nor would 10,000,000 people. In case you haven't tested the political and social winds lately, lick your finger and shove it into the air and take a look: homosexuality is publicly accepted. You have nothing at all to fear.

The states are not going to start enforcing the sodomy laws still on the books simply because some people continue to advance an anti-homosexual position. Senators and attorneys general aren't about to switch sides on gay marriage because His4Ever posted some remarks you don't like. It ain't frickin' gonna happen. There is not going to be a backsliding in recognition of homosexual liberties. It's so mainstream that straight people (still 90% of us) are making it a top 5 primetime show, and many of the biggest fans of that show that I know personnally are devoutly religious. It just isn't an issue anymore.

A few people will always hold a contrary position. It's a fact of life. In this case, it's a moral judgment. It's not like they're saying 2+2=5, it's a wee bit subjective. The hatred and vitriol that has flown from people's keyboards this past week is astonishing.

If you're ever at the point at which the mere expression of a contrary opinion is seen as so extremely threatening that you must supress it with vigilance, you might want to take a look at the strength of your own position....in this case, I doubt your position is so weak that you need present the defense that you have. All that the discussion of this past week or so has accomplished is to demonstrate new heights of personal enmity and bitterness.

In a free society as we have today, wherein personal liberties are generally respected, an idea or thought isn't dangerous. Heck, a solid 50 years of Ashcroft still couldn't change that. "Fighting ignorance" hasn't worked so far, it's not going to work. Why waste time and effort, and only antagonize people further? This latest debate is only one of a long series of such issues, debates that simply will not reslove themselves. Tough luck. Find something else to talk about, because continuing to press the issue is just verbal self-fellation...you're free to talk on and on about it, but if it isn't getting results, why bother to continue?

[Qadgop the Mercotan]

homosexuality is publicly accepted. You have nothing at all to fear.

Tell that to Matt Shepherd

[Homebrew]

And why hasn't the Employment Non-Discrimination Act passed Congress? Why did the Defense of Marriage Act pass so quickly?

Houston, 1998:

Two men in Houston, Texas were arrested under that state's 119-year-old sodomy law, when they were witnessed by police having consensual sex in a private apartment where one of the men lived. The police were called to the apartment by a complainant who directed them to the apartment stating that a robbery was taking place; the complainant was subsequently charged with filing a false report. The two men were held in jail for several hours, and then released on $200 bail. They face arraignment on November 20, which could result in a maximum $500 fine. While challenges to the Texas sodomy law, which singles out same-sex acts for prosecution, have been unsuccessful, some have observed that this most recent case may be a significant challenge to the law's constitutionality. Clarence Bagby, president of the Houston Gay & Lesbian Political Caucus stated, "We certainly hope to move this forward, and we’d love to see it move all the way up the ladder and be declared unconstitutional." In 1997, the state sodomy law was used by a Texas child protection worker to remove a three-month-old child from a foster home provided by two lesbians, saying "Homosexuality is against the law and CPS (Child Protective Services) were knowingly condoning it."

Miami's non-discrimination laws narrowly escaped repeal (53% voting to preserve the law).

Nope. Not quite as rosy as you seem to think.

[Jodi]

I think the OP is on some leve valid, but here's the thing for me personally:

I have no problem with gay people; I never have. At the risk of incurring bitter laughs at an old chestnut of a cliche -- one of my best friends is gay.

And I talk more about my religious faith here on this board than I ever do IRL; IRL, no one gives a shit what I believe.

But here on the Board, when I identified myself as a Christian, and as one who does not believe being gay is wrong, or a sin, or something to alienate one from God, I was asked: Why do you not speak up? When these people try to say that this is what your religion believes -- that there is no place in it for people God created as gay, why don't you say something? Is not silence on some level agreement?

So now I speak up. When someone like HIS4EVER or JERSEYDIAMOND or whomever says "God condemns you to hell for this," I say "NO, He doesn't." When someone says "Christians believe this," I say, "NO, we don't." And frankly it gets a little tiresome, but I feel like I have an obligation to not allow my religion to be co-opted by the "others." They have no more right to the name than I do, and no more right to declare what it means or stands for.

And I never -- never -- have to deal with that in real life. Though I'd like to think I'd have the courage to do so if required, based on what I've learned here.

But the point of the homosexuality debates for me is to not allow one voice to say what Christianity is or does or believes. And I promise to shut up about it just as soon as they do. But until they do -- how can I?

[lel]

Originally posted by RexDart

In a free society as we have today, wherein personal liberties are generally respected, an idea or thought isn't dangerous. Heck, a solid 50 years of Ashcroft still couldn't change that. "Fighting ignorance" hasn't worked so far, it's not going to work. Why waste time and effort, and only antagonize people further? This latest debate is only one of a long series of such issues, debates that simply will not reslove themselves. Tough luck. Find something else to talk about, because continuing to press the issue is just verbal self-fellation...you're free to talk on and on about it, but if it isn't getting results, why bother to continue?

Well, these debates have led me to rethink my ideas about homosexuality and homosexual acts. It might not be a resolution, but I've thought about things once more. Does revisiting the issue and rethinking it count for any useful benefit of all these discussions?

[iampunha]

Originally posted by RexDart
Guess what, somebody on the danged internet saying he/she doesn't approve morally of homosexuality will not affect your personal life one dang bit.

Well, thanks for letting me know. I guess I can just stop caring that the people who don't approve of my sexuality online also don't approve of it in real life, and rest assured that their beliefs are not hurting anyone in person. Because, after all, that's the important thing, right? Forget the community I've grown to call a home in the past two+ years. It's just the internet. It's not like I have any feelings invested in this place

Not at all. Nor would 1,000 people....nor would 1,000,000 people....nor would 10,000,000 people.

Oh wow. In case the first part of your paragraph wasn't assuming enough, let's take an argument and drive it to a vastly reaching conclusion.

In case it wasn't apparent enough to you before when (I'm sure) you read every thread on this subject both in GD and the Pit and elsewhere:

This is my LIFE. My sexuality is part of my LIFE. It's not a fucking hobby. I don't say "Hey, I think I'll be bisexual tonight during Will and Grace. My living room could use the redecoration." And for the past two and a half years (on this board and others) I have repeatedly seen people bash, mock, belittle, dehumanize, degrade, push aside and downplay my rights as a human being because of who I love.

You see how accepting that makes you of those people. I see people who've been fighting this fight longer than I have been alive and I almost wonder how they can keep calm when they get attacked again for something as base and core in them as anything else.

In case you haven't tested the political and social winds lately, lick your finger and shove it into the air and take a look: homosexuality is publicly accepted. You have nothing at all to fear.

Well, that's a lovely thought except that it's not true by any stretch, or that thread on gaybashing experiences would have posts about things that had happened ten years ago or twenty years ago.

Newsflash for you: it is still not safe to be gay, much less openly gay, in this country.. I got pelted with rocks and sticks by CHILDREN because they THOUGHT I was gay. I wasn't holding hands with a boyfriend or kissing someone in the privacy of my own home. They *perceived* that I *might* be gay and acted on that perception.

What the fuck cave are you living in where it's safe for all gay people to be open about their sexuality? It's a lovely thought but it's simply not true.

The states are not going to start enforcing the sodomy laws still on the books simply because some people continue to advance an anti-homosexual position.

States DO enforce the laws, you ignorant piece of rat shit. And those laws that are repealed take far too much effort considering they criminalize private acts of love between human consenting adults. What the fuck "Happy News" television station or newspaper have you been watching?

Senators and attorneys general aren't about to switch sides on gay marriage because His4Ever posted some remarks you don't like.

Not specifically because of her, but in case you hadn't noticed, she isn't alone in her beliefs (or lack of ability to defend them) or the shock level of some of her posts would be a lot higher.

It just isn't an issue anymore.

If it isn't an issue, why the fuck are you raising it? Talk about a paradox within itself...

A few people will always hold a contrary position. It's a fact of life. In this case, it's a moral judgment. It's not like they're saying 2+2=5, it's a wee bit subjective.

They are saying that an orientation is a choice, and a sinful choice at that, and that it is unnatural and an abomination and that those of us who "live that lifestyle" are going to burn in hell for loving people.

Sorry if I can't accept that viewpoint. No, really

All that the discussion of this past week or so has accomplished is to demonstrate new heights of personal enmity and bitterness.

My, but we are a selective reader, are we not? Or is it just all the big words that trip you up?

"Fighting ignorance" hasn't worked so far, it's not going to work.

Fighting ignorance hasn't worked so far?

Have you read anything on this message board, or do you just look at the posts with all the pretty colors and smileys?

Tough luck. Find something else to talk about, because continuing to press the issue is just verbal self-fellation...you're free to talk on and on about it, but if it isn't getting results, why bother to continue?

Mmm, self-fellation ...

Oh, sorry, were you saying something important?

We have made strides in terms of acceptance and tolerance and education. Look at the posts by dreamer as evidence of that.

[sub[What is it, stupid person sweeps week here?[/sub]

[black rabbit]

I live in the only city in the US that specifically singles out homosexuals as legitimate targets of discrimination in its charter. Not just "Nope, no protection for the homos, sorry," but "Go right ahead! Discriminate against the motherfuckers! High five!"

Not that I've participated in any of the debates here or anything, because I have neither the time nor the energy, but still.

[John Carter of Mars]

I've probably got no business posting in this thread, because I know little of the subject. I don't claim to have any gay friends, and AFAIK the only gay people I know are the ones I "know" from this message board. But I do know this: Rex, you're fulla' shit with this statement: "homosexuality is publicly accepted. You have nothing at all to fear. "
Less than a year ago, a young man who lived about 30 miles from me was killed by two others and his body was burned. Why? To quote the killers: "He was a damn queer."
And don't start some crap about that being "An Alabamar Thang." Pick up any big city newspaper and you're likely to see a similar story.
If you're going to jump into something as controversial as your above statements, you better put a little more thought into it, and do some reality checks first.
If discussion on a public message board serves to enlighten the populace, then it's not a bad thing.

[andygirl]

Originally posted by RexDart
Jeez, people. Get the frick over it, already.

Guess what, somebody on the danged internet saying he/she doesn't approve morally of homosexuality will not affect your personal life one dang bit. Not at all. Nor would 1,000 people....nor would 1,000,000 people....nor would 10,000,000 people. In case you haven't tested the political and social winds lately, lick your finger and shove it into the air and take a look: homosexuality is publicly accepted. You have nothing at all to fear.

Oh, that explains why queers can hold hands with their partners anywhere.

Oh, wait...

[LolaBaby]

You know, maybe the arguments may change the mind of a few lurkers...all you and the rest of us are seeing are the outspoken straight supremacists.

I think it's good that we argue about it. If it changes the mind of one straight supremacist, that's better than nothing at all.

And as for you saying it's "publically accepted", HAHAHA! Try telling that to one outspoken homophobe here in Hawaii who is now trying to run for office. The worst part is that he's getting a LOT of support. That scares the fuck out of me.

[chula]

Originally posted by RexDart
"Fighting ignorance" hasn't worked so far, it's not going to work.

It's just taking longer than we thought.

The only places I've lived in the United States are San Francisco and New York, probably the most gay tolerant places in the U.S. And I think you're living in fantasyland.

[iampunha]

Hell, I live half an hour from DC and I still encounter straight supremacists and people who have all sorts of misguided (though I have been trying for years to educate them) thoughts on non-heterosexuality.

[MrVisible]

One TV show, featuring completely stereotypical gay characters, and we've achieved equality. I'm sure the blacks were all thrilled when they were liberated by Amos n' Andy, too.

In my city, which is pretty gay-friendly, a man walked up behind a college student and stabbed him in the back, because he was standing in front of a gay coffee shop. That was two years ago; this year, a man had the crap beaten out of him in front of a gay bar. The only reason that particular incident even made the papers, months later, is that the gay-basher was a fireman, and the son of the local fire chief. Just two months ago, a man was beaten to death in one of the local gay neighborhoods. No one has been caught, no motive is suspected, but the newspaper accounts all mention that the victim was wearing multiple earrings.

I've found the man I want to love for the rest of my life, and I'm going to marry him. Know what that means? Nothing. At least, it means nothing to society. No joint insurance rate, no married tax filing (a significant problem, as we're buying a house together), no inheritance rights...

We argue this, not because it's fun, because believe me, it's not, but because we have to. Every time a straight supremacist pops up, spouting the same old nonsense, we have to be there, to make sure nobody believes that they actually have a valid point. It's like some horrendous nightmare version of Whack-a-Mole. Homophobia's primary cause is ignorance, and if we want to eliminate homophobia from our national agenda, we have to make sure to educate wherever possible.

I've heard from several people on this board that the debates that go on about homosexuality have helped them to re-examine their perspective on this issue. For me, personally, it helps to have heard all the arguments that straight supremacists can muster (over and over and over and over...) and to have refined, practiced rebuttals prepared. This has helped me a few times in real life discussions as well.

I'm glad you're under the impression that this isn't an issue anymore; that shows that we're making progress. But we haven't won, not by a long shot. We can still lose our jobs, lose our homes, lose our children, to our own government, motivated only by ignorance and prejudice. We still can't openly serve in our military. Just two days ago, voters turned down a gay rights bill in Florida. As much as we'd like to stop fighting, we can't.

[Sparc]

For crying out loud, what's the point of the debates??

When the fuck did you become chief censor around here RexDart?

As for the rest of your rant... get fucking real! Anywhere in the world today society pretty much leaves homo/bi-sexual people with one of three options...

1. Shut up and stay in the closet to some degree, living a life of lies or half-truths.
2. Seek out the gay community and stick to it.
3. Fight for your right to be what you are and suffer the consequences.

In most parts of the world options 2 and 3 are connected with risk to life and limb. The US is far up on the list of the most gay-intolerant societies of the world.

Sparc

[iampunha]

I can't find this online, though I know it's there because I've seen it linked before, but could anyone post a link to the ratner length list of rights denied American citizens because they are gay? I think there are still over a thousand of them...

[A Monkey With a Gun]

Eh, this whole thing is a passing storm on the boards. It will play out unless people quit feeding it. It's really no different from the atheism, gun control, abortion, or any other of the fads that can grip the boards from time to time. It's human nature, and not any different than the news fads we see on TV screaming about shark attacks, child abductions, or the West Nile Virus.

It will pass.

[iampunha]

Originally posted by Beeblebrox
It will pass.

God help us all if it does.

[A Monkey With a Gun]

Huh? You want it to stay? Sure, the issues shouldn't be forgotten but they have begun to dominate the pit. There are other things in life.

[iampunha]

If it does pass I hope it will be because of a "We have equal rights! Rah!" post. And I hope that post echoes in the halls of the Chicago Reader (and its assigns and whatnot) for years.

As I said before, to give up this fight is to admit defeat.

[waterj2]

I think he just meant the current rush of homosexuality debates. That will pass when the damn straight supremacists stop coming here to debate. Have any of them ever actually held their own here? Or anywhere, really? I mean, the most coherent argument I've heard against homosexuality is "it's icky".

I agree with the OP that gays are already on an irrevocable course towards equal rights and tolerance. But only because I know many people just won't stop fighting, no matter what.

And what senators and attorneys general are for gay marriage?

[Beagle]

For crying out loud, what's the point of the homosexuality debates??

Seventeen replies counting mine (assuming nobody just snuck in) in about three hours. People vote with their keyboards.

My topics don't get 16 replies in three days. Not whining, just noting. More replies would probably mean I was getting a new orifice installed by the posters.

That was not a topical reference either. As for the topic:

Let's get ready to RUMBLLLLEEEEE!

FUNDIES versus FLAMERS in a knockdown drag-out (get it?, "drag") smack down for the undisputed civil rights championship of the world.

In white corner wearing white trunks with little red crosses, weighing in at an omnipresent omniscient infinity of pounds: some really caring people who love the sinner but hate the sin. They just don't want gays to have "special rights." They have some interest in particular parts of the Old Testament but pretty much ignore the rest, including the rest of Leviticus. Their tastes run towards Amy Grant, Pat Boone (until he started getting all weird) and all that really cool Christian rock --- THE FUNDIES! The Fundies.

In the fuscia corner wearing peach trunks with rainbows, black leather chaps, and a feather boa, weighing in at a fabulous undisclosed amount of pounds: some folks who would like to be able to share in most of the civil rights that us straght people do. For example, the right to join in unions upheld legally. They would like to have their partners be able to make decisions in the hospital for them if they are incapacitated. They would like the rules of intestate succession (dying without a will) to allow their partners to inherit their money, etc. They love Donna Summer, Gloria Gayner (no coincidence there), Bronski Beat, and show tunes, the FLAMERS! The Flamers.

No Christians or gay people were seriously hurt in the making of this parody, I hope.

[iampunha]

Fuscia with peach and leather?

Am I the only one thinking "DEAR GOD THE FASHION FAUX PAS!"?

[Stoid]

Doesn't the OP apply to virtually everything we ever talk about here? it's just blather, aint' gonna change a damn thing. Except maybe a few private minds.

[RexDart]

Hey all...

I understand that some of you have experienced hatred. I understand that some of you know of occasions that hatred turned towards violence. I can understand the distress that might cause. BUT...it is not the mere voicing of opinion by the "straight supremacist" or "homophobe" (do we have the birth of a new word on SDMB?) that brings these things about.

Reverend Phelps can talk on and on, endlessly, about homosexuality. Those who are already inclined to believe him will adopt his words.....the rest of us will laugh and mock him. He doesn't make an impact, and he's the most visible and vocal anti-gay personality in the news.

I live in Missouri. It's frickin' Missouri. Now, Columbia may very well be the Berkeley of Missouri, but it's still Missouri. Even here, I have no doubts about assessing the situation, and it's public acceptance of gay rights. The attempts to put a non-discrimination clause related to sexual orientation in the university charter have had a surge of grassroots support on both occasions.

Do I encounter individuals who still harbor a bias? Yes. Has that bias ever affected the freedom of my homosexual friends to do as they will? No. They can (and do) prattle on about gays, but they're all bark and no bite. Every time I hear an anti-gay proposition from some local redneck, I thrust it in their face that I've roomed on two occasions with gay persons, defy them to challenge me, and they back off. Maybe that's because I'm 6'2" 265 lbs, or maybe it's because they were just making what they thought was a "joke" at the expense of people who weren't around. It may still be trendy among rednecks to bash gays, but they back off quick if you throw some real world experience at them.

The long and short of it is this: their talk don't walk. You wanna bring violent actions into it, that's another discussion entirely. People with violent predispositions will carry on as they do, and seek minimal justification for their actions, hiding behind whatever makeshift morality they can find. After all, nobody ever does anything at all unless they can justify it to themselves, no matter how twisted the rationale.

The hordes of people who tell me I shouldn't smoke or drink....they aren't preventing me from lightin' up a pack a day and drinkin' all the alcohol I can afford. Sticks and stone might break my bones, but words will never hurt me. Only state policy, the use of force by the government, can do that. Put it to the people. I bet you'll find that the position that gay people should be free to pursue their romantic relations as they see fit is overwhelmingly popular. Strip away the legal portions of marriage, ask the question right, and I bet most people wouldn't have much problem with civil union ceremonies either.

So a few people on the extreme edge of an issue are shouting at you, what's the problem? The idea itself isn't harmful. If some people use the idea as a basis for violence, that doesn't make the idea itself dangerous. Over the years, "liberty" and "freedom" have been the rallying cries for so many murders, but that doesn't make those ideas dangerous. Let H4E prattle on, ignore her if you will, but don't spew vitriolic filth (and considering some of the remarks I heard, I mean filth) feeling you must oppose the remarks with vigilance. Ignorance and irrationality will be ignored in the long run, you have nothing to fear from those sources.

[Sublight]

Originally posted by black455
I live in the only city in the US that specifically singles out homosexuals as legitimate targets of discrimination in its charter. Not just "Nope, no protection for the homos, sorry," but "Go right ahead! Discriminate against the motherfuckers! High five!"

black455, do you have a cite for this (or just the name of the city so I can look up their charter)? I'd like to be able show it to others who think equal rights are 'special treatment'.

[grendel72]

Originally posted by RexDart
The attempts to put a non-discrimination clause related to sexual orientation in the university charter have had a surge of grassroots support on both occasions.

Both occasions? can you not see that the very fact that something as self evidently decent as non-discrimination requires more than one attempt to achieve disproves your theory?

On this issue, there is no room on the fence. If you ignore the bigots, if you pretend that in any way shape or form they could possibly have a valid point- you are not on my side.

You call the comments directed at the bigots filth. Nothing anyone opposed to them could ever say could match the soul blackening filth of their words. They can see right and wrong just as clearly as the rest of us; they choose to ignore it in favor of a book. They ignore real world sufferring in favor of believing in perverted fairy tales.

[LolaBaby]

Originally posted by RexDart

Strip away the legal portions of marriage, ask the question right, and I bet most people wouldn't have much problem with civil union ceremonies either.

My question to you is, why should they have to "strip away the legal portions of marriage, ask the question right"?

Why not just allow marriage as is?

We had a vote here a few years back and the vote against it won out over the minority that see marriage as a union between two people who love each other, no matter what their sexuality is. I don't see that as much progress.

I have a good friend who has way more gay friends than I do and even she voted against it. That's what I don't understand. Apparently things are not as rosy as you think they are. And talking about it here may not have an obvious effect to you, but I don't see how it can hurt.

[mswas]

Well, I am all for equal rights. I am totally against hate crimes laws. I don't care if someone got beaten to death because he was "a fucking faggot" or "She just doesn't fucking listen", it's an equal crime. The law should be completely blind and that includes correcting injustice. You shouldn't compensate for injustice, just correct it.

I have had sex with both men and women and received some weird reactions to it. Very few people actually have a normal view of it. I oftentimes get the reaction from gay people that I had some sort of obligation out of solidarity to tell them about it instead of making them wonder about it cuz I set their "Gaydar" off. I think the discrimination comes from both sides in the issue, and generally both sides are fairly intolerant.

However I think there is something to the idea that our society is more tolerant than it once was, and that doesn't get acknowledged as much as I think it should.

As for the mention of murders of homosexuals in large cities, yes it is fairly common. It happens in New York City pretty regularly from what I understand. Hell I've had guys get MAD at me because they thought I was a girl and were attracted to me. As if it's MY fault they were attracted to me. I have cross-dressed in my time but I generally dress in just baggy pants and t-shirts.

Homosexuality is not totally accepted, but there is some major progress. However, I do not think there should be special laws including them, however, there should not be any special laws excluding them either.

Erek

[iampunha]

I don't mean to downplay the rest of your post, I just have to address this:

Originally posted by RexDart
Sticks and stone might break my bones, but words will never hurt me.

I have been involved in mass beatings (of myself). People have taken delight in hurting me physically with any number of things. It is not the act itself that hurts but the thought, the motive behind it.

Words, to me, hurt far more than physical action. And I doubt that I am alone in this.

It's a romantic and idealist idea that sexuality, regardless of the prefix, is accepted in this country. I wish it were true. I'd love to see my friend Charlie marry his boyfriend Q and have them be accepted by America. But the fact of the matter is that this is not the case.

[Miller]

Reverend Phelps can talk on and on, endlessly, about homosexuality. Those who are already inclined to believe him will adopt his words.....the rest of us will laugh and mock him. He doesn't make an impact, and he's the most visible and vocal anti-gay personality in the news.

Most visible? Most vocal? More than Pat Buchannan? Anne Coulter? Jesse Helms? Jerry Falwell? Pat Robertson? John Ashcroft? George W. Bush?

I live in Missouri. It's frickin' Missouri. Now, Columbia may very well be the Berkeley of Missouri, but it's still Missouri. Even here, I have no doubts about assessing the situation, and it's public acceptance of gay rights. The attempts to put a non-discrimination clause related to sexual orientation in the university charter have had a surge of grassroots support on both occasions.

Attempts? Both occasions? You mean it didn't pass on the first go? Did it pass the second time? Do you really believe the failure of a non-discrimination clause represents acceptance?

Do I encounter individuals who still harbor a bias? Yes. Has that bias ever affected the freedom of my homosexual friends to do as they will? No.

Ask your gay friends if they think this is true. Go ahead, I dare ya.

They can (and do) prattle on about gays, but they're all bark and no bite.

Sorry, are you talking about the homophobes or your gay friends here?

Every time I hear an anti-gay proposition from some local redneck, I thrust it in their face that I've roomed on two occasions with gay persons, defy them to challenge me, and they back off. Maybe that's because I'm 6'2" 265 lbs, or maybe it's because they were just making what they thought was a "joke" at the expense of people who weren't around. It may still be trendy among rednecks to bash gays, but they back off quick if you throw some real world experience at them.

The fact that you personally can intimidate a few bigots impresses me less than the fact that you apparently regularly come into contact with people who feels no qualms expressing their bigotry to strangers. This doesn't say "acceptance" to me, it says these attitudes are so common most people don't raise an eyebrow when they hear them.

The long and short of it is this: their talk don't walk. You wanna bring violent actions into it, that's another discussion entirely. People with violent predispositions will carry on as they do, and seek minimal justification for their actions, hiding behind whatever makeshift morality they can find. After all, nobody ever does anything at all unless they can justify it to themselves, no matter how twisted the rationale.

I agree with you to a certain extent. Were there no such thing as homosexuality, I somehow doubt the scum that beat Matthew Shephard to death would have gone on to be valued members of society. However, the attitudes of people like Jersey Diamond and His4Ever contribute to an atmosphere that says, "It's okay to target gays, no one's going to care if you kill one." And all too often, they are correct.

The hordes of people who tell me I shouldn't smoke or drink....they aren't preventing me from lightin' up a pack a day and drinkin' all the alcohol I can afford. Sticks and stone might break my bones, but words will never hurt me.

Right, because homosexuality is completely analogous to your drug habits. Come back and try this argument when people are attacking you with sticks and stones for having a beer.

Only state policy, the use of force by the government, can do that.

And you know how we determine state policy? By voting. If a bill comes up saying you can't refuse to rent to people based on their sexuality, how do you think His4Ever is going to vote?

Put it to the people. I bet you'll find that the position that gay people should be free to pursue their romantic relations as they see fit is overwhelmingly popular. Strip away the legal portions of marriage, ask the question right, and I bet most people wouldn't have much problem with civil union ceremonies either.

You are deluded. Ever hear of the Defense of Marriage Act? And what the fuck is the point of getting the right to marriage if all the legal portions of it have been stripped away? The legal portions are the parts we want!

So a few people on the extreme edge of an issue are shouting at you, what's the problem? The idea itself isn't harmful. If some people use the idea as a basis for violence, that doesn't make the idea itself dangerous.

Again with the delusions.

Over the years, "liberty" and "freedom" have been the rallying cries for so many murders, but that doesn't make those ideas dangerous. Let H4E prattle on, ignore her if you will, but don't spew vitriolic filth (and considering some of the remarks I heard, I mean filth) feeling you must oppose the remarks with vigilance. Ignorance and irrationality will be ignored in the long run, you have nothing to fear from those sources.

Ignoring ignorance? Listen, you pinhead, that's exactly the fucking problem! If we let these ideas go unchallenged, more people will believe them. It's by countering their arguments and showing how little basis in rationality, ethics, and simple human compassion they have. Burying our heads in the sand while these notions are allowed to run free is going to make things worse, not better.

And, goddammit, if the debates bug you so much, stop fucking reading them. But please stop whining because people are standing up for their essential human dignity, because if makes you look really fucking petty.

[iampunha]

Rexdart, just for shits and giggles, when's the last time someone:

1. Physically attacked you for smoking or drinking
2. Called you a name for smoking or drinking
3. Implied there was soming intrinsically wrong with your smoking or drinking or your preference.
4. Assumed that you were some disease-ridden worthless piece of trash because you preferred smoking cigarettes and drinking tequila to, say, smoking pipes and drinking cheap booze

I was going to add something about passing legislation that would limit your rights as a smoker/drinker, but A) those are about things you (at least initially) choose to do, whereas sexuality isn't. Coming up with number 4 was difficult enough.

[Essured]

Originally posted by RexDart
... homosexuality is publicly accepted. You have nothing at all to fear.

BWAHAHAHA !

It just isn't an issue anymore.

AHAHAHAHA !

Why waste time and effort, and only antagonize people further?

Perhaps being seen as equal under the eyes of the law does not appear to be a waste of time and effort to most homosexuals.

The attempts to put a non-discrimination clause related to sexual orientation in the university charter have had a surge of grassroots support on both occasions.

"attempts" ... "both occasions"... Does this seem to you like a non-issue ? Does this sound like homosexuals have reached a position of equality ?

Do I encounter individuals who still harbor a bias? Yes. Has that bias ever affected the freedom of my homosexual friends to do as they will? No.

Your homosexual friends are unconcerned about being unable to marry are they ? Odd. I've heard a lot of homosexuals express the desire to be treated equally and not have their freedom to marry as heterosexuals do restricted.

Strip away the legal portions of marriage, ask the question right, and I bet most people wouldn't have much problem with civil union ceremonies either.

O.K... So we strip away the legal stuff, all the rights to property, income, hospital visitation, etc... and what do we have left ? A government recognised civil ceremony ? Is this equality ? Is this a non-issue ? Why should the legal portions be removed ?

[BTW, I second the request for a link to the list of benefits that homosexuals are denied, due to their inability to legally marry.]

Have another read through your posts, RexDart. You seem to be convinced on one hand that homosexuals have nothing to gain by debating/complaining/protesting their current status since they are completely publically accepted, yet on the other hand, trying to ensure they'll be close but never quite legally equal to heterosexuals. If this is wrong and I've unfairly characterised your position, I apologise and would appreciate clarification. If it's right, I have to ask why ? Why shouldn't homosexuals have the same legal rights as heterosexuals ? I can't think of one good reason, perhaps you can ?

And finally,

For crying out loud, what's the point of the homosexuality debates??

The point is that homosexuals aren't treated equally in the eyes of the law, and there is no reasonable justification for this continued state of affairs. Until this legal discrimination ends, there will always be a point to debating anti-homosexuals and there will always be a need to push for equality.

[matt_mcl]

Let's not jump on RexDart. Many times I've met straight people who, because they don't have to deal with it, simply are unaware of the kind of discrimination we have to put up with. The worst we can really accuse them of is being ignorant about something they don't find themselves personally implicated in. It's irritating that s/he feels the need to shoot off his mouth rather than actually listen to gay people describe what we have to go through, though.

[EchoKitty]

Rexdart, you are precisely the reason I started the Gaybashing thread in MPSIMS. Listen to the stories and see the sadness that people have to endure day in and day out. Progress has been made, but there is still a long way to go. It is a huge problem on many levels. The legal aspects aside, physical violence and emotional abuse are very much a part of the picture. I noticed in the stories people were sharing in the bashing thread, children are learning to hate at a very young age. The problem renews itself with each generation.

I used to say "that is so gay", not realizing the true ramifications of the statement. I read a number of threads on this board that made me realize that it is not only insulting, but it perpetuates the problem. I no longer use the term (even as a "joke") and I no longer say it around my 9-yr-old neice, because I don't want to be the "pebble" that starts the wave. The threads on homosexuality DO make a difference. And not just on the boards, but in my daily quest to do the right thing.

[MrVisible]

The requersted link for the General Accounting Office's list of the 1049 rights, privileges, and responsibilities associated with marriage, which are accessible only to heterosexuals.

And RexDart, it seems you've concluded that the progress that the gay rights movement has made is sufficient at its current level; that we should be happy with the concessions that have been made toward treating us like human beings, and that now we should shut up about it.

Let me ask you; would you find this situation acceptable if you were under the same legal restrictions and societal pressures and danger of random violence?

[The Ace of Swords]

Nice OP, Rexdart, I'm talked out about it, but I thought this bore repeating, some ( ) seem to have missed the point once again:

Jeez, people. Get the frick over it, already.

Guess what, somebody on the danged internet saying he/she doesn't approve morally of homosexuality will not affect your personal life one dang bit. Not at all. Nor would 1,000 people....nor would 1,000,000 people....nor would 10,000,000 people.

[black rabbit]

Originally posted by Sublight


black455, do you have a cite for this (or just the name of the city so I can look up their charter)? I'd like to be able show it to others who think equal rights are 'special treatment'.

Soitenly.

It's Cincinnati. This is just the first thing I came up with:

(2) The relevant amendment to the city charter reads, "The City of Cincinnati and its various Boards and Commissions may not enact, adopt, enforce or administer any ordinance, regulation, rule or policy which provides that homosexual, lesbian, or bisexual orientation, status, conduct, or relationship constitutes, entitles, or otherwise provides a person with the basis to have any claim of minority or protected status, quota preference or other preferential treatment. This provision of the City Charter shall in all respects be self-executing. Any ordinance, regulation, rule of policy enacted before this amendment is adopted that violates the foregoing prohibition shall be null and void and of no force or effect."

http://www.nlf.net/is3crtden.html

Do a search on Cincinnati "Issue 3" and you should find plenty of shit.

[MrVisible]

You know, I thought this bore repeating too:

Ace, have you ever actually contributed anything to an argument? Or have you been cursed for all eternity to simply poke at the participants in discussions in an incomprehensible and annoying fashion until they give up their debate and insult you instead?

[EchoKitty]

RexDart said, "Guess what, somebody on the danged internet saying he/she doesn't approve morally of homosexuality will not affect your personal life one dang bit. Not at all. Nor would 1,000 people....nor would 1,000,000 people....nor would 10,000,000 people. "

You are so wrong. Attitudes on the Internet affect attitudes in real life. Maybe moreso than ever before. The number of people who are reached is a thousand times the number that would be reached at a KKK rally or similar hate event. The attitudes you see here are the same ones walking around in real life. Just because you can't be physically beaten on the internet doesn't mean you're immune to the emotional abuse.

[Enderw24]

I've read through this thread and I'm going to add two points that haven't been discussed yet. Hama should be so proud!

1) I have changed my position. Do you hear that RexDart? Thanks to my time spent on the SDMB and my readings of threads on gay debates I have changed my position on the concept of homosexuality. Two years ago I really didn't know anyone that was homosexual. I didn't care about their rights because, frankly, it didn't affect me all that much. Three nights ago I not only went to a protest for gay rights in Topeka, I spoke up at a city council meeting in favor of proposals stopping discrimination. Guess what? I learned about the meeting through the SDMB too!

2) A quote by RexDart:

Reverend Phelps can talk on and on, endlessly, about homosexuality. Those who are already inclined to believe him will adopt his words.....the rest of us will laugh and mock him. He doesn't make an impact

.
But he does. That meeting in Topeka? He was at it. He and his family were the first ELEVEN people to speak. The proposal to end rental discrimination to homosexuals failed. Fred Phelps won Tuesday night. He made an impact.
The room was so full that many people didn't get a seat and had to wait outside. 90% of the room was made up of those that wanted the proposal to fail. Don't think that didn't make a difference too. Again, the proposal failed. They made an impact. Fred Phelps won.

If these two poionts don't convince you, I really can't think of anything that will. You're wrong in saying that the SDMB doesn't help fight ignorance and you're wrong in saying that the homophobes aren't winning. But believe what you want, I guess. Sometimes it does take longer than we thought...

[EchoKitty]

RexDart said, "Guess what, somebody on the danged internet saying he/she doesn't approve morally of homosexuality will not affect your personal life one dang bit. Not at all. Nor would 1,000 people....nor would 1,000,000 people....nor would 10,000,000 people. "

You are so wrong. Attitudes on the Internet affect attitudes in real life. Maybe moreso than ever before. The number of people who are reached is a thousand times the number that would be reached at a KKK rally or similar hate event. The attitudes you see here are the same ones walking around in real life. Just because you can't be physically beaten on the internet doesn't mean you're immune to the emotional abuse.

[Esprix]

I wholeheartedly disagree with the OP. I will point you to this thread for more of an education. I will also sing another verse of "You've Got To Be Carefully Taught" from South Pacific:

You've got to be taught to hate and fear
You've got to be taught from year to year
It's got to be drummed in your dear little ear.
You've got to be carefully taught.

You've got to be taught to be afraid
Of people whose eyes are oddly made
and people whose skin is a different shade
You've got to be carefully taught.

You've got to be taught
before it's too late
before you are six or seven or eight
To hate all the people your relatives hate
You've got to be carefully taught.

Words do, indeed, hurt.

Oh, and Ace? You really need to learn when to shut the fuck up.

Esprix

[The Ace of Swords]

Originally posted by Esprix
Oh, and Ace? You really need to learn when to shut the fuck up.

Esprix

I don't tell you what to think, you don't tell me when to post, and we'll keep it civil.

-Ace

[MrVisible]

Please see my most recent post above, Ace.

[gobear]

May I offer this to our fundamentalist brethren to show how their message of "love" is received?

[mswas]

Originally posted by black455


Soitenly.

It's Cincinnati. This is just the first thing I came up with:


http://www.nlf.net/is3crtden.html

Do a search on Cincinnati "Issue 3" and you should find plenty of shit.

Hmm, legalese usually makes me cross-eyed, and I didn't read the rest of the charter, but the paragraph you posted seemed to make a lot of sense to me. Why SHOULD a homosexual receive special treatment under the law? All it seemed to say to me was that they would make no law that specifically benefitted a homosexual.

I think if the same were true for skin color et. al. things would be much better. If a law doesn't apply to every single person it needs to be changed. That's my opinion. Therefore if you are going to allow marriage, EVERYONE should be allowed to get married, if you are going to make it illegal to kill people it should be the same punishment whether you kill someone for crack of because they are a homosexual.

I think that Cincinatti has it right, if of course I read that right.

Erek

[Esprix]

So in lieu of the right to marry, mswas, you have no problem with a gay person's life partner being denied access to them while they are in the hospital? (After all, "next of kin" applies to everyone.) Because until equal marriage laws are passed (and that's still quite a ways off), this is just one small example of the overt discrimination that the gay community faces every single day.

Esprix

[Joe_Cool]

So Esprix, musicals are valid citations? If that holds up, you might have just singlehandedly changed the entire face of great debates!

[matt_mcl]

No, you baka, they're valid quotations.

[apotheosis]

Originally posted by gobear
May I offer this to our fundamentalist brethren to show how their message of "love" is received?

I'm convinced that a great many of them don't care how it's received. They only care that they deliver it, thereby earning a few more Piety Points^TM.