Ouija board, please explain this?

Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports
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I am at present doing research on afterlife and the paranormal. I have found now I want to do research into Ouija because basically years ago I was very into playing with these boards and something weird always happend and I can’t find an explanation for it.

I seen in your answer http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mouija.html to someones question on how the ouija works, that it is due to involuntary/unconscious movement. Yes I am sure for many that has been the case but not for myself and others that were involved when we played with it.

First off I played with the ouija hundreds of times from the ages of 10-16. On and off of course but always introducing new people to this interesting ‘game’. I had rules and the rules were there to make the non believers believe.

I would always play with a minimum of 3 people. I would tell one person to remove their hand from the board and think of a letter in their mind, concentrate on it and keep doing so till the pointer moved to that letter. I would make them continue doing so until there was no doubt that the other 2 could not be pushing the pointer. I would make the other person do the same and then myself. That way you have 3 people who have commanded the pointer through their mind to go to different parts of the board and the thing done it, every time.

On playing with the ouija and given our age I wasn’t interested in contacing dead people,we were just having fun. I would often when my hand was not on the board just concentrate on what letter I wanted the pointer to go to and therefore would spell out the answers to the questions in my mind but my hands were not on the board.

It would always do as I wished, I just took that to be because I was so into the game and had more control. I am not a mind reader, I am not a psychic and neither were any of my friends yet we were still able to proove that none of us were cheating by simply keeping our thoughts to ourselves and no need for blindfolds.

Now can you explain that?

I now hold no interest in playing with the ouija board it was just a childlike game at that time but I would love for someone to give me an explanation of how that pointer moved to where I and my friends wished it to go without the thinker making contact with the board?

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unclviny

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It’s quite probable that your experience can’t be exactly explained, because there is no evidence of what actually happened.

There are several possibilities that might explain your memories of your experiences. Most of these I’m pretty sure you’d reject, but they are all much more probable then some sort of psychic experience.

You say “something weird always happened”. It’s almost certain that something weird didn’t happen every time, but like all of us, you experience some selective memory. All of us tend to remember the stuff that seems odd or out of the ordinary, and forget the stuff that seems expected or natural. This means we tend to remember the times when the pointer went to the right letters, and forget the times it didn’t. It would be truly remarkable if the pointer didn’t go the right letter once in a while. A little selective memory makes it seem like this happened more often than it actually did.

You also say “we were still able to proove that none of us were cheating”. What precautions did you take to make sure of this? Certainly the method you describe in your post leaves many opportunities to cheat, both consciously and unconsciously. For instance, when you had a person “remove their hand from the board and think of a letter in their mind”, did they leave the room? Were they hidden (both visibly and audibly) from the people who still had their hands on the board. If not, then unconscious cueing could explain a lot. The people moving the cursor can pick up cues from the person thinking of the letter. Body language, eye movements, small noises, etc, can all direct people in a kind of “hot and cold” fashion without either party doing anything deliberate.

And of course, there is deliberate cheating. Did you take any precautions against that? What was to keep a couple of your buddies from playing a little joke on you?

Add to this the fact that many, many people have made similar kinds of claims for hundreds of years. In every case where there has been proper investigation, it has turned out there wasn’t as much “weirdness” as was thought, and the weirdness that did exist was easily explainable by mundane causes.

So let me ask you a question. unclviny has already pointed out (in a somewhat abbreviated fashion) that James Randi will pay you $1,000,000 if, under controlled circumstances, you can get the cursor on a Ouija board to go where you want without touching it. If ouija boards actually work, can you explain why that million is still in the bank?

Ugly

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http://skepdic.com/ouija.html

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Yes RJKUgly there is no proof of what I am saying and therefore I can hardly expect an explanation. What I should have asked was if anyone has ever experienced something similar? I am sure many people have because I am not gifted in anyway.

I don’t buy the selective memory process because like I said and I do not exaggerate when I say I played with ouija boards for years and basically the reason I developed my system of making non believers make it move through their minds was to make sure no one was wasting my time or the time of others. I also on every occasion went through the process myself to make sure that we were in fact dealing with ‘something’. Without being too technical on these ‘tests’ the whole point was to do something to proove to the others that might doubt that the ouija moved of its own accord. You can say what you like about body language and all the rest but I know I introduced many kids to the ouija and when you see someones face go chalk white you know you have got a result. I wouldn’t make the person do it once I would ask them to do it repeatedly till they were totally convinced. If it took 10 times we would do it 10 times but I assure you after 3 or 4 times I had their attention. There was always variation as to who would be on the board so its not like it was always me and I could read body language or eye movement.

The reason we did not further these tests was because there was no need. You take a non believer ask them to concentrate truely on a letter, everyone elses mind must be blank and wait and see, if it goes to the letter, now you still not convinced do it again, and again. From my memory it was not a hit and a miss the pointer went where it was comanded and this is when you would see the pure shock on the faces of the new people who had not played before.

I never questioned what it was when I was younger I just accepted it. I have no wish to dabble with ouija boards now. I have told my boyfriend of my experiences with it and he is interested in trying it but I have no interest in it whatsoever. I don’t think it’s a game, I don’t know what it is but I would like to hear if anyone had similar experiences.

I also have no interest in offering up myself for some ‘freakshow win a million’. Who’s to say it could happen now anyway. I was a lot younger when I dabbled with these things. I put it to anyone that they could do it anyway as it wasn’t just me as I have already stated, all my friends that wanted to play with it were able to do it as well.

To be fair I never gained any useful information from the boards and was often controlling it myself but with my mind. Sometimes something really strong would come on and it would disobey my thought and I would get rid of it as it would not want to comply.

This may sound very nutty to folk who have never dabbled with such things but like I say I was first introduced to it at the age of 10 and was quite taken with it for a long time.

I think its too easy to break things down by saying things like body language and selective memory because you can’t explain what it actually is. Personally I think its got more to do with telekinesis than spirits but I can’t explain why that is. All I can tell you is my story how I do remember and I am very sure that in the 6 years or so I dabbled with ouija there was a lot more to it than kids mucking about, why else would I keep going back to it?

I never posted this thread for attention of any sort I am simply doing research into the paranormal because I am at a crossroads in my life of sceptic and believer. I feel I want to research to give myself the advantage of all information from a non bias point of view. I can take on board any point of view at the minute. What made me think back to ouija boards was because something did happen when I played with them.

Now this was only 12 years ago so I don’t think my memory has got so selective that I choose to remember only parts of my ouija days. Like I have said, I and my friends played with it for around 6 years, usually the long summer holidays when we were bored and looking for something to do. My test was solid as far as I was concerned as loads of kids I introduced would mock it and say it was rubbish till they tried my test and then I had their attention.
I have no wish to dabble with it now as I don’t need proof, been there done that and an older and wiser self tells me to stay away from things I know nothing about.

I would say to anyone who is interested in dabbling with it at least try my way of playing with it and that way you know nobody is pulling your leg.

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I was fairly certain that you wouldn’t buy selective memory as a possible partial explanation, virtually no one does the first time they encounter it. But the facts are indisputable. Everyone, including you, me, and everyone we know, exhibits this behavior.

It’s been 12 years since this happened. During that 12 years, every time you told someone about those experiences, every time you went through them in your mind, you unconsciously emphasized some things and de-emphasized others. Everyone does this. Over time, those memories can change quite a little bit. I know you don’t believe this, but testing has shown that it is true, and true of everyone. Why should you be different? As you say, you are “not gifted in anyway”.

As far as unconscious cueing goes, how do you know that it wasn’t a big effect? You took no precautions against it. Apparently, you are not (or at least were not) even aware this phenomenon existed. It is widely used by magicians to do exactly the kind of thing you describe that made “someones face go chalk white”. It is a very real thing, and can have a great effect in some circumstances.

I believe that your experiences seem real to you, and that you believe that they constitute something that normal mundane science can’t explain. But it seems obvious that you haven’t any concept of how to put even the simplest of controls on an experiment. You need to educate yourself in science before you do any research into the paranormal (or anything else), or before you accuse someone else of “break(ing) things down by saying things like body language and selective memory because you can’t explain what it actually is”.

If these things are real, it should be trivial for some 10 year old out there to take Randi’s million dollars. There have been those who tried. Every single one has failed. And not just in Randi’s test, but in every single test done with the proper controls. Every single one. This is not proof that these things don’t exist, but it is proof that many people who thought they were doing something paranormal were in fact not.

Why should we believe, and more importantly why should you believe in these things until you have subjected your evidence to same standards of scrutiny? If you do, that is not “research to give myself the advantage of all information from a non bias point of view”, it is self-delusion, pure and simple.

If you are truly interested in finding the truth, try your experiment again, and see what happens. Take notes this time, or better yet, record the process on video with a clock clearly visible in the frame the entire time. Try to mask the possibility of unconscious cueing by hiding the “sender” from the people with their hands on the board. Give the sender a random list of letters to think about, don’t let them just think of their name or school. Try to think of ways to stop the trivial transfer of information so that the only transfer methods are paranormal.

After that, if you find significant results, you may have something. At this point, if you are really interested in the truth, you should notify Randi. Even if you aren’t interested in the million bucks (and yeah, we believe that) you can donate it to science. And your success would guarantee that physic and paranormal phenomena would get all the study required.

On the other hand, if you’re not really interested in the truth, you can simply go on believing what you believe with (at the very best) no proof at all.

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Ouija board, eh? That’s nothing. My keyboard and mouse work by themselves. I just have to maintain light contact with my fingers, and they spell out exactly what I’m thinking! It’s obviously supernatural.

OK, so I still don’t get it. You’ve got something moving while two people are touching it, and yet the darn thing is supposed to be moving by itself? Have everyone take their hands off. If it still moves, then I think you might have a case.

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It is not that I don’t buy selective memory as a partial explanation because in fact I do, it is very valid. What I don’t buy is that it is ‘the explaination’ to my question of events for this simple fact. The 'test’was a rule I followed every time I embarked on playing the ouija for over a period of around 6 years. I would never play the game without duing the test first. So no matter how I might slightly change the events of what happened in my mind the foundation of the events have not changed that much.

I do not wish to attempt to do any experiments with the ouija board under any circumstances. Why you may ask? To be honest I am scared of it. It was something I dabbled with when I was younger and as far as my memory serves me, I got a result of some sort. One that cannot be explained obviously.

My research is for my own personal gain and as far as educationing myself on science, well I can read can’t I.
‘scientiests are reluctant to investigate this area because of its lack of structure. Without structure there is chaos which can only be conquered by exhibiting intellectual superiority over the universe by virtue of scientific theory. However, paranormal events are too random to study scientifically. Most evidence is anecdotal and, by its very nature, impossible to prove.’

Just because you can’t prove something doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

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before educating myself on science I should try my spelling :wink:

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Is this a quote from somewhere? At any rate, it has some severe flaws. For example, “paranormal events are too random to study scientifically” is just silly. If it is that random, it is of no use to us. If it is that random, we can’t even tell if it’s doing anything. You previously said that every time you did your test with the ouija board, you got results. This doesn’t sound random. In fact, if something happens any detectable percentage of the time, it can be observed and tested, at least for existence.

It sounds like you want to believe in something that happens every time, but is so random that science can’t test it. How convenient for you.

No, but if thousands of people try to prove its existence (not explain it, or define mechanisms, or anything else, just to detect it) and fail every single time over a period of decades, I think most of us start to get an idea of the direction the investigation is heading.

Ugly

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A good book to read about the Ouija board is “the Ouija Board, a doorway to the occult.’ by Edmond C. Gruss The board was originally created for communication with the dead, I believe. It is dangerous. I’d like to share a few quotes from the book, " The Dark Side of the Supernatural” by Bill Myers and David Wimbish:

This is a quote within the book by Edmond Gruss - "The board has been subjected to tests which support supernatural intervention. The testing of the board was presented in an article by Sir William Barrett, in the September 1914 Proceedings of the American Society for Psychical Research (pp. 381-394). The Barrett report indicated that the board worked efficiently with the operators blindfolded, the board’s alphabet rearranged, and it’s surface hidden from the sight of those working it. It worked with such speed and accuracy under these tests that Barrett concluded: ‘Reviewing the results as a whole, I am convinced of their supernatual character, and that we have here an exhibition of some intelligent, disincarnate agency mingling with the personality of one or more of the sitters and guiding their muscular movements.’ "
"Many who have studied the ouija board believe it is a means of cummunicating with voices from beyond. Here’s what God has to say about that:

Let no one be found among you who…practices divination or sorcery, interpets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord. (Deut. 18:10-12)"

From the book “the Ouija Board” by Edmond Gruss:

“Ed Warren, who spent years dealing with Ouija board cases warns: Ouija boards are just as dangerous as drugs. They’re not to be played with…Just as parents are responsible for other aspects of their children’s lives, they should take equal care to keep the tools of the devil from their children…especially in an era when satanic cults are on the rise. Remember: Seances and Ouija boards and other occult paraphernalia are dangerous because evil spirits often disguise themselves as your loved ones – and take over your life.”

“British Pastor Russell Parker, author of Battling the Occult, has counselled and advised many occult victims. Here are his comments on the Ouija board - I consider the Ouija board to be a dangerous occult door through which people have unwittingly opened themselves up to destructive powers. In so doing they have set themselves on a dangerous road which will only produce further spiritual deterioration.”

Of course, all this may mean nothing to you or you may not agree with it but if you’re interested in the subject, I would recommend the book I mentioned. There are stories in it about things that have happened to people who’ve gotten involved with the board.

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Chronos, this is exactly what I told my youngest niece when she started in with this crap. One little experiment really opened her eyes.

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“tools of the devil”? I suppose if you consider Milton-Bradley to be the devil… His4Ever, you never fail to entertain.

RJKUgly is exactly right, you can’t say that it’s too random and also claim you get reproducable results at the same time. One or the other is true. If it’s random, you have nothing. If it’s reproducable you’ll have to reproduce it with someone else watching before anyone takes you seriously. Everyone else who has tried has either failed, been found to be cheating, or unconciously cheating.

Science can answer your question if you are willing to open up to examination.

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Yeah, you could get a paper cut. :rolleyes:

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Just the response I figured I’d get.:smack:

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I’ll have to agree with His4Ever here.
ALL occult items can be used for evil.
I used to use the board-nothing evil happened, but why open the door to it?
The Tarot cards can allow evil spirits into your life also.
I know almost NO One on here will beleive that (excepting His4Ever) but many who have tried it have found it to be true.

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Because it’s a game, vanilla. That’s why.

Hm, you know… Nothing evil happens when I post on this message board, but why encourage it? I best stop now.

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Romm’s Law: Anything that can be used can be misused.

“All occult items can be used for evil.”

First, I still haven’t bought into the notion that the Oiuja Board is “occult”. Second, no one here has reported anything bad; just a bunch of people sliding to letters. Third, whatever good something may do can always be used for harm, eg the Straight Dope Message Boards can be used to spread foolish notions as well as disseminate wisdom.

This can be conclusively confirmed by a cast of the I Ching.

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No where does it say or even seem that the SDMB is evil.
Theres a difference between message boards and occult items and books.
Not that you might know that…

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Really? So when people flame out in the Pit, calling the rest of us a lynch mob, they’re not thinking the message board is evil?

The thing is, anyone can call anything evil. Is the Ouija Board being promoted as an evil entity? Of course not. It’s a game. You know, for entertainment?

It’s dopey teenagers wanting to impress their friends that propagate the notion that it’s a tool of the occult.