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  #1  
Old 11-18-2002, 01:03 PM
Delphinus Delphinus is offline
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Ouija board, please explain this?

I am at present doing research on afterlife and the paranormal. I have found now I want to do research into Ouija because basically years ago I was very into playing with these boards and something weird always happend and I can't find an explanation for it.

I seen in your answer http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mouija.html to someones question on how the ouija works, that it is due to involuntary/unconscious movement. Yes I am sure for many that has been the case but not for myself and others that were involved when we played with it.

First off I played with the ouija hundreds of times from the ages of 10-16. On and off of course but always introducing new people to this interesting 'game'. I had rules and the rules were there to make the non believers believe.

I would always play with a minimum of 3 people. I would tell one person to remove their hand from the board and think of a letter in their mind, concentrate on it and keep doing so till the pointer moved to that letter. I would make them continue doing so until there was no doubt that the other 2 could not be pushing the pointer. I would make the other person do the same and then myself. That way you have 3 people who have commanded the pointer through their mind to go to different parts of the board and the thing done it, every time.

On playing with the ouija and given our age I wasn't interested in contacing dead people,we were just having fun. I would often when my hand was not on the board just concentrate on what letter I wanted the pointer to go to and therefore would spell out the answers to the questions in my mind but my hands were not on the board.

It would always do as I wished, I just took that to be because I was so into the game and had more control. I am not a mind reader, I am not a psychic and neither were any of my friends yet we were still able to proove that none of us were cheating by simply keeping our thoughts to ourselves and no need for blindfolds.

Now can you explain that?

I now hold no interest in playing with the ouija board it was just a childlike game at that time but I would love for someone to give me an explanation of how that pointer moved to where I and my friends wished it to go without the thinker making contact with the board?
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Old 11-18-2002, 01:30 PM
unclviny unclviny is offline
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Old 11-18-2002, 07:47 PM
JimOfAllTrades JimOfAllTrades is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Delphinus
I am at present doing research on afterlife and the paranormal. I have found now I want to do research into Ouija because basically years ago I was very into playing with these boards and something weird always happend and I can't find an explanation for it.

(snip)

It would always do as I wished, I just took that to be because I was so into the game and had more control. I am not a mind reader, I am not a psychic and neither were any of my friends yet we were still able to proove that none of us were cheating by simply keeping our thoughts to ourselves and no need for blindfolds.

Now can you explain that?
It’s quite probable that your experience can’t be exactly explained, because there is no evidence of what actually happened.

There are several possibilities that might explain your memories of your experiences. Most of these I’m pretty sure you’d reject, but they are all much more probable then some sort of psychic experience.

You say “something weird always happened”. It’s almost certain that something weird didn’t happen every time, but like all of us, you experience some selective memory. All of us tend to remember the stuff that seems odd or out of the ordinary, and forget the stuff that seems expected or natural. This means we tend to remember the times when the pointer went to the right letters, and forget the times it didn’t. It would be truly remarkable if the pointer didn’t go the right letter once in a while. A little selective memory makes it seem like this happened more often than it actually did.

You also say “we were still able to proove that none of us were cheating”. What precautions did you take to make sure of this? Certainly the method you describe in your post leaves many opportunities to cheat, both consciously and unconsciously. For instance, when you had a person “remove their hand from the board and think of a letter in their mind”, did they leave the room? Were they hidden (both visibly and audibly) from the people who still had their hands on the board. If not, then unconscious cueing could explain a lot. The people moving the cursor can pick up cues from the person thinking of the letter. Body language, eye movements, small noises, etc, can all direct people in a kind of “hot and cold” fashion without either party doing anything deliberate.

And of course, there is deliberate cheating. Did you take any precautions against that? What was to keep a couple of your buddies from playing a little joke on you?

Add to this the fact that many, many people have made similar kinds of claims for hundreds of years. In every case where there has been proper investigation, it has turned out there wasn’t as much “weirdness” as was thought, and the weirdness that did exist was easily explainable by mundane causes.

So let me ask you a question. unclviny has already pointed out (in a somewhat abbreviated fashion) that James Randi will pay you $1,000,000 if, under controlled circumstances, you can get the cursor on a Ouija board to go where you want without touching it. If ouija boards actually work, can you explain why that million is still in the bank?

Ugly
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Old 11-18-2002, 07:56 PM
Hemlock Hemlock is offline
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Old 11-19-2002, 09:56 AM
Delphinus Delphinus is offline
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Yes RJKUgly there is no proof of what I am saying and therefore I can hardly expect an explanation. What I should have asked was if anyone has ever experienced something similar? I am sure many people have because I am not gifted in anyway.

I don't buy the selective memory process because like I said and I do not exaggerate when I say I played with ouija boards for years and basically the reason I developed my system of making non believers make it move through their minds was to make sure no one was wasting my time or the time of others. I also on every occasion went through the process myself to make sure that we were in fact dealing with 'something'. Without being too technical on these 'tests' the whole point was to do something to proove to the others that might doubt that the ouija moved of its own accord. You can say what you like about body language and all the rest but I know I introduced many kids to the ouija and when you see someones face go chalk white you know you have got a result. I wouldn't make the person do it once I would ask them to do it repeatedly till they were totally convinced. If it took 10 times we would do it 10 times but I assure you after 3 or 4 times I had their attention. There was always variation as to who would be on the board so its not like it was always me and I could read body language or eye movement.

The reason we did not further these tests was because there was no need. You take a non believer ask them to concentrate truely on a letter, everyone elses mind must be blank and wait and see, if it goes to the letter, now you still not convinced do it again, and again. From my memory it was not a hit and a miss the pointer went where it was comanded and this is when you would see the pure shock on the faces of the new people who had not played before.

I never questioned what it was when I was younger I just accepted it. I have no wish to dabble with ouija boards now. I have told my boyfriend of my experiences with it and he is interested in trying it but I have no interest in it whatsoever. I don't think it's a game, I don't know what it is but I would like to hear if anyone had similar experiences.

I also have no interest in offering up myself for some 'freakshow win a million'. Who's to say it could happen now anyway. I was a lot younger when I dabbled with these things. I put it to anyone that they could do it anyway as it wasn't just me as I have already stated, all my friends that wanted to play with it were able to do it as well.

To be fair I never gained any useful information from the boards and was often controlling it myself but with my mind. Sometimes something really strong would come on and it would disobey my thought and I would get rid of it as it would not want to comply.

This may sound very nutty to folk who have never dabbled with such things but like I say I was first introduced to it at the age of 10 and was quite taken with it for a long time.

I think its too easy to break things down by saying things like body language and selective memory because you can't explain what it actually is. Personally I think its got more to do with telekinesis than spirits but I can't explain why that is. All I can tell you is my story how I do remember and I am very sure that in the 6 years or so I dabbled with ouija there was a lot more to it than kids mucking about, why else would I keep going back to it?

I never posted this thread for attention of any sort I am simply doing research into the paranormal because I am at a crossroads in my life of sceptic and believer. I feel I want to research to give myself the advantage of all information from a non bias point of view. I can take on board any point of view at the minute. What made me think back to ouija boards was because something did happen when I played with them.

Now this was only 12 years ago so I don't think my memory has got so selective that I choose to remember only parts of my ouija days. Like I have said, I and my friends played with it for around 6 years, usually the long summer holidays when we were bored and looking for something to do. My test was solid as far as I was concerned as loads of kids I introduced would mock it and say it was rubbish till they tried my test and then I had their attention.
I have no wish to dabble with it now as I don't need proof, been there done that and an older and wiser self tells me to stay away from things I know nothing about.

I would say to anyone who is interested in dabbling with it at least try my way of playing with it and that way you know nobody is pulling your leg.
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Old 11-19-2002, 11:49 AM
JimOfAllTrades JimOfAllTrades is offline
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I was fairly certain that you wouldn’t buy selective memory as a possible partial explanation, virtually no one does the first time they encounter it. But the facts are indisputable. Everyone, including you, me, and everyone we know, exhibits this behavior.

It’s been 12 years since this happened. During that 12 years, every time you told someone about those experiences, every time you went through them in your mind, you unconsciously emphasized some things and de-emphasized others. Everyone does this. Over time, those memories can change quite a little bit. I know you don’t believe this, but testing has shown that it is true, and true of everyone. Why should you be different? As you say, you are “not gifted in anyway”.

As far as unconscious cueing goes, how do you know that it wasn’t a big effect? You took no precautions against it. Apparently, you are not (or at least were not) even aware this phenomenon existed. It is widely used by magicians to do exactly the kind of thing you describe that made “someones face go chalk white”. It is a very real thing, and can have a great effect in some circumstances.

I believe that your experiences seem real to you, and that you believe that they constitute something that normal mundane science can’t explain. But it seems obvious that you haven’t any concept of how to put even the simplest of controls on an experiment. You need to educate yourself in science before you do any research into the paranormal (or anything else), or before you accuse someone else of “break(ing) things down by saying things like body language and selective memory because you can't explain what it actually is”.

If these things are real, it should be trivial for some 10 year old out there to take Randi’s million dollars. There have been those who tried. Every single one has failed. And not just in Randi’s test, but in every single test done with the proper controls. Every single one. This is not proof that these things don’t exist, but it is proof that many people who thought they were doing something paranormal were in fact not.

Why should we believe, and more importantly why should you believe in these things until you have subjected your evidence to same standards of scrutiny? If you do, that is not “research to give myself the advantage of all information from a non bias point of view”, it is self-delusion, pure and simple.

If you are truly interested in finding the truth, try your experiment again, and see what happens. Take notes this time, or better yet, record the process on video with a clock clearly visible in the frame the entire time. Try to mask the possibility of unconscious cueing by hiding the “sender” from the people with their hands on the board. Give the sender a random list of letters to think about, don’t let them just think of their name or school. Try to think of ways to stop the trivial transfer of information so that the only transfer methods are paranormal.

After that, if you find significant results, you may have something. At this point, if you are really interested in the truth, you should notify Randi. Even if you aren’t interested in the million bucks (and yeah, we believe that) you can donate it to science. And your success would guarantee that physic and paranormal phenomena would get all the study required.

On the other hand, if you’re not really interested in the truth, you can simply go on believing what you believe with (at the very best) no proof at all.
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Old 11-19-2002, 12:32 PM
Chronos Chronos is online now
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Ouija board, eh? That's nothing. My keyboard and mouse work by themselves. I just have to maintain light contact with my fingers, and they spell out exactly what I'm thinking! It's obviously supernatural.

OK, so I still don't get it. You've got something moving while two people are touching it, and yet the darn thing is supposed to be moving by itself? Have everyone take their hands off. If it still moves, then I think you might have a case.
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Old 11-19-2002, 03:09 PM
Delphinus Delphinus is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by RJKUgly
I was fairly certain that you wouldn’t buy selective memory as a possible partial explanation, virtually no one does the first time they encounter it. But the facts are indisputable. Everyone, including you, me, and everyone we know, exhibits this behavior.



I believe that your experiences seem real to you, and that you believe that they constitute something that normal mundane science can’t explain. But it seems obvious that you haven’t any concept of how to put even the simplest of controls on an experiment. You need to educate yourself in science before you do any research into the paranormal (or anything else), or before you accuse someone else of “break(ing) things down by saying things like body language and selective memory because you can't explain what it actually is”.



Why should we believe, and more importantly why should you believe in these things until you have subjected your evidence to same standards of scrutiny? If you do, that is not “research to give myself the advantage of all information from a non bias point of view”, it is self-delusion, pure and simple.

It is not that I don't buy selective memory as a partial explanation because in fact I do, it is very valid. What I don't buy is that it is 'the explaination' to my question of events for this simple fact. The 'test'was a rule I followed every time I embarked on playing the ouija for over a period of around 6 years. I would never play the game without duing the test first. So no matter how I might slightly change the events of what happened in my mind the foundation of the events have not changed that much.

I do not wish to attempt to do any experiments with the ouija board under any circumstances. Why you may ask? To be honest I am scared of it. It was something I dabbled with when I was younger and as far as my memory serves me, I got a result of some sort. One that cannot be explained obviously.

My research is for my own personal gain and as far as educationing myself on science, well I can read can't I.


'scientiests are reluctant to investigate this area because of its lack of structure. Without structure there is chaos which can only be conquered by exhibiting intellectual superiority over the universe by virtue of scientific theory. However, paranormal events are too random to study scientifically. Most evidence is anecdotal and, by its very nature, impossible to prove.'

Just because you can't prove something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
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Old 11-19-2002, 03:21 PM
Delphinus Delphinus is offline
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before educating myself on science I should try my spelling
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Old 11-19-2002, 06:16 PM
JimOfAllTrades JimOfAllTrades is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Delphinus
'scientiests are reluctant to investigate this area because of its lack of structure. Without structure there is chaos which can only be conquered by exhibiting intellectual superiority over the universe by virtue of scientific theory. However, paranormal events are too random to study scientifically. Most evidence is anecdotal and, by its very nature, impossible to prove.'
Is this a quote from somewhere? At any rate, it has some severe flaws. For example, “paranormal events are too random to study scientifically” is just silly. If it is that random, it is of no use to us. If it is that random, we can’t even tell if it’s doing anything. You previously said that every time you did your test with the ouija board, you got results. This doesn’t sound random. In fact, if something happens any detectable percentage of the time, it can be observed and tested, at least for existence.

It sounds like you want to believe in something that happens every time, but is so random that science can’t test it. How convenient for you.
Quote:
Originally posted by Delphinus
Just because you can't prove something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
No, but if thousands of people try to prove its existence (not explain it, or define mechanisms, or anything else, just to detect it) and fail every single time over a period of decades, I think most of us start to get an idea of the direction the investigation is heading.

Ugly
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Old 11-19-2002, 06:59 PM
lynn73 lynn73 is offline
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A good book to read about the Ouija board is "the Ouija Board, a doorway to the occult.' by Edmond C. Gruss The board was originally created for communication with the dead, I believe. It is dangerous. I'd like to share a few quotes from the book, " The Dark Side of the Supernatural" by Bill Myers and David Wimbish:

This is a quote within the book by Edmond Gruss - "The board has been subjected to tests which support supernatural intervention. The testing of the board was presented in an article by Sir William Barrett, in the September 1914 Proceedings of the American Society for Psychical Research (pp. 381-394). The Barrett report indicated that the board worked efficiently with the operators blindfolded, the board's alphabet rearranged, and it's surface hidden from the sight of those working it. It worked with such speed and accuracy under these tests that Barrett concluded: 'Reviewing the results as a whole, I am convinced of their supernatual character, and that we have here an exhibition of some intelligent, disincarnate agency mingling with the personality of one or more of the sitters and guiding their muscular movements.' "
"Many who have studied the ouija board believe it is a means of cummunicating with voices from beyond. Here's what God has to say about that:

Let no one be found among you who...practices divination or sorcery, interpets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord. (Deut. 18:10-12)"

From the book "the Ouija Board" by Edmond Gruss:

"Ed Warren, who spent years dealing with Ouija board cases warns: Ouija boards are just as dangerous as drugs. They're not to be played with.....Just as parents are responsible for other aspects of their children's lives, they should take equal care to keep the tools of the devil from their children......especially in an era when satanic cults are on the rise. Remember: Seances and Ouija boards and other occult paraphernalia are dangerous because evil spirits often disguise themselves as your loved ones -- and take over your life."

"British Pastor Russell Parker, author of Battling the Occult, has counselled and advised many occult victims. Here are his comments on the Ouija board - I consider the Ouija board to be a dangerous occult door through which people have unwittingly opened themselves up to destructive powers. In so doing they have set themselves on a dangerous road which will only produce further spiritual deterioration."

Of course, all this may mean nothing to you or you may not agree with it but if you're interested in the subject, I would recommend the book I mentioned. There are stories in it about things that have happened to people who've gotten involved with the board.
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Old 11-19-2002, 08:42 PM
Buck The Diver Buck The Diver is offline
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Originally posted by Chronos
You've got something moving while two people are touching it, and yet the darn thing is supposed to be moving by itself? Have everyone take their hands off. If it still moves, then I think you might have a case.
Chronos, this is exactly what I told my youngest niece when she started in with this crap. One little experiment really opened her eyes.
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Old 11-19-2002, 11:03 PM
Telemark Telemark is offline
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"tools of the devil"? I suppose if you consider Milton-Bradley to be the devil... His4Ever, you never fail to entertain.

RJKUgly is exactly right, you can't say that it's too random and also claim you get reproducable results at the same time. One or the other is true. If it's random, you have nothing. If it's reproducable you'll have to reproduce it with someone else watching before anyone takes you seriously. Everyone else who has tried has either failed, been found to be cheating, or unconciously cheating.

Science can answer your question if you are willing to open up to examination.
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Old 11-20-2002, 04:23 AM
Cervaise Cervaise is offline
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(His4Ever) It is dangerous.
Yeah, you could get a paper cut.
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Old 11-20-2002, 08:58 AM
lynn73 lynn73 is offline
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Originally posted by Cervaise
Yeah, you could get a paper cut.
Just the response I figured I'd get.
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  #16  
Old 11-20-2002, 09:21 AM
vanilla vanilla is offline
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I'll have to agree with His4Ever here.
ALL occult items can be used for evil.
I used to use the board-nothing evil happened, but why open the door to it?
The Tarot cards can allow evil spirits into your life also.
I know almost NO One on here will beleive that (excepting His4Ever) but many who have tried it have found it to be true.
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Old 11-20-2002, 09:34 AM
dantheman dantheman is offline
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Because it's a game, vanilla. That's why.

Hm, you know... Nothing evil happens when I post on this message board, but why encourage it? I best stop now.
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Old 11-20-2002, 09:36 AM
DRomm DRomm is offline
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Romm's Law: Anything that can be used can be misused.

"All occult items can be used for evil."

First, I still haven't bought into the notion that the Oiuja Board is "occult". Second, no one here has reported anything bad; just a bunch of people sliding to letters. Third, whatever good something may do can always be used for harm, eg the Straight Dope Message Boards can be used to spread foolish notions as well as disseminate wisdom.

This can be conclusively confirmed by a cast of the I Ching.
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Old 11-20-2002, 09:37 AM
vanilla vanilla is offline
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not a bad idea

No where does it say or even seem that the SDMB is evil.
Theres a difference between message boards and occult items and books.
Not that you might know that..
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Old 11-20-2002, 09:40 AM
dantheman dantheman is offline
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Really? So when people flame out in the Pit, calling the rest of us a lynch mob, they're not thinking the message board is evil?

The thing is, anyone can call anything evil. Is the Ouija Board being promoted as an evil entity? Of course not. It's a game. You know, for entertainment?

It's dopey teenagers wanting to impress their friends that propagate the notion that it's a tool of the occult.
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Old 11-20-2002, 09:42 AM
vanilla vanilla is offline
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not all are dopey nor teenagers.

Evil spirits become attached to certain things-astrology, tarot cards, ouija boards, etc.

Not the same as a message board.
Understand?
No.
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Old 11-20-2002, 09:44 AM
dantheman dantheman is offline
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Nope. Prove to me that spirits attach themselves to a board game.

That's a crock.
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  #23  
Old 11-20-2002, 09:47 AM
vanilla vanilla is offline
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http://www.wellspringsministries.com...nce/page7.html
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  #24  
Old 11-20-2002, 09:51 AM
vanilla vanilla is offline
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lemme try another one

http://<a href="http://www.spotlight.../ouija.htm</a>
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Old 11-20-2002, 09:53 AM
vanilla vanilla is offline
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http://<a href="http://www.spotlight.../ouija.htm</a>
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  #26  
Old 11-20-2002, 09:54 AM
vanilla vanilla is offline
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one last time

www.spotlightministries.org.uk/ouija.htm
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Old 11-20-2002, 09:55 AM
dantheman dantheman is offline
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Oh, good source, a ministry. Very objective.

And it quotes a Christian publication. Again, very objective.

Good heavens. Of course they're going to say there is "an unexplained evil" behind it. They want to create something evil against which the good souls can rise.

Do you happen to have any actual sources?
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  #28  
Old 11-20-2002, 09:57 AM
vanilla vanilla is offline
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of course!
Christians can never be objective!
I forgot.
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Old 11-20-2002, 10:01 AM
dantheman dantheman is offline
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Sure they can. But when a minister is polling his fellow Christians about whether there are spirits afoot, how many of them would answer objectively? They'll answer in the affirmative either because it's what they believe to be true or because their minister is sermonizing them on it.

Do you know of any scientific studies that have shown there are evil spirits behind Ouija Boards?
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Old 11-20-2002, 11:52 AM
Cervaise Cervaise is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by His4ever
Just the response I figured I'd get.
Then why bother?

Look: It's a piece of cardboard with letters on it. It operates by unconscious muscular coordination of the participants. There ain't nothin' occult about it: It's manufactured by the same company that makes "Monopoly" and "Clue," those well-known bastions of demonic influence.

There's a simple experiment you can perform to prove that it's the movements of the participants that determine the path of the pointer. That is, unless you're too scared of a printed piece of cardboard to actually perform the experiment.

First: Get your group together, and have one person stand aside as a silent observer. Let them use the board as usual. Oo and ah over the "mysterious messages."

Then: Do exactly the same thing, but blindfold the participants. The silent observer will note that the pointer wanders around the board, as the participants are no longer able to subconsciously direct their hands. If there really were demonic forces influencing the board, it should make no difference whether or not the participants can see it. But when they can't, the board doesn't work. QED.

Of course, if a printed piece of cardboard terrifies you, then you'll forever labor under the misapprehensions of this silly bit of superstitious nonsense.
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Old 11-20-2002, 12:30 PM
lynn73 lynn73 is offline
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Re: one last time

Quote:
Originally posted by vanilla
www.spotlightministries.org.uk/ouija.htm
I concur [b]vanilla/b]

The ouija board is not just a game even though it is marketed as such. It was originally created for communication with the spirit world. Evil spirits can and do use it. I've read stories about what's happened to people messing with it and it isn't good.

I attended a slumber party when I was young at a girl friend's house and there was a board there. I don't really remember what happened but my mom told me I was scared when I came home.

Mess with it if you want, not me.
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Old 11-20-2002, 12:34 PM
lynn73 lynn73 is offline
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Originally posted by dantheman
Sure they can. But when a minister is polling his fellow Christians about whether there are spirits afoot, how many of them would answer objectively? They'll answer in the affirmative either because it's what they believe to be true or because their minister is sermonizing them on it.

Do you know of any scientific studies that have shown there are evil spirits behind Ouija Boards?
Oh yeah, like science is going to prove the existence of spirits, evil and otherwise. Get the book I mentioned and read some of the stories in there about people who've used the board. The end result reveals who's behind it.
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  #33  
Old 11-20-2002, 12:36 PM
dantheman dantheman is offline
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Re: Re: one last time

Quote:
Originally posted by His4ever

The ouija board is not just a game even though it is marketed as such. It was originally created for communication with the spirit world. Evil spirits can and do use it. I've read stories about what's happened to people messing with it and it isn't good.[/b]
1) Prove it was originally created for communication with the spirit world.

2) Prove evil spirits can and do use it.

If you can't, then you're just espousing unsubstantiated opinions.

Quote:
I attended a slumber party when I was young at a girl friend's house and there was a board there. I don't really remember what happened but my mom told me I was scared when I came home.
You don't remember what happened, but there was a board there, so it must have been the board? Gigantic leap of logic, there.

Hm. When I got home from work, I was very sad. Earlier in the day I had seen a clown. I bet the clown made me sad.
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  #34  
Old 11-20-2002, 12:38 PM
dantheman dantheman is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by His4ever
Oh yeah, like science is going to prove the existence of spirits, evil and otherwise. Get the book I mentioned and read some of the stories in there about people who've used the board. The end result reveals who's behind it.
Sorry, people's stories don't prove a thing other than what that person wants to believe. Anecdotal insights are as useful as old wives' tales.

So, again, I say it's a crock.

As Chronos suggested, if the Ouija Board is evil, why don't you just put it down and watch it move on its own? If it moves, then fine - evidence of Something Out There. If it doesn't move, then the whole idea is full of malarkey.
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  #35  
Old 11-20-2002, 01:45 PM
Cervaise Cervaise is offline
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I could have sworn when I woke up this morning that I was in the 21st century. I guess not. Better go out to the field and sprinkle bees' wings over the crops so the soil gremlins push up on the underside of the cornstalks to make them taller.
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  #36  
Old 11-20-2002, 04:07 PM
happyboy happyboy is offline
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This I know

Hmm. . . I knew this one would get interesting sooner or later. On the one hand, we have those who believe that everything can be proven or disproven using the scientific method, and on the other hand, those who have faith in things unseen. Oddly enough, the modern era of scientific experimentation was begun by men who devoutly and fervently believed in God, that God is a God of order and not disorder, and that He created a world where certain principles were ordered and could be repeatedly observed (men like Newton, Mendel, Pasteur, you get the idea).

The reason "science" was so respected in the public eye was because scientists, being good, ethical (which stems from being God-revering) men, would never even think of altering data or results to repudiate their theses. Their results were their results, and if the data didn't fit the thesis, they changed the thesis. The idea that God's existence had to be proven scientifically would have been silly to them, to say the least. Science was intended to deal with the natural world, and biology, chemistry, and physics are its roots.

Mid-19th Century or so, things began to change, and the objective scientific method was thought by many to be able to answer all of life's questions. Of course, questions like, "Where do I go when I die?" or even, "Why is Billy so mean?" lie outside the realm of pure science to answer--and IT WAS NEVER INTENDED TO! Thus the problem.

Don't you remember the scandalous headlines of the late 20th century regarding how so many scientists were playing with their data to make it fit their theses? And do you remember why? For grant money to do further research! Yes, all for money. (And, yes, there certainly are religious, even "Christian," leaders who are in it for the money. And there are honest scientists and honest Christians too!)

One unethical use of data was the "proof" that one can be born homosexual. The "scientist" told the press that he had found conclusive evidence of this, which they smeared all over the front page. When the same "scientist" presented his findings to his fellows, he made no such claim, knowing that they could easily interpret the data themselves and that no such finding was evident, much less valid. I think that one got a two-paragraph story on page A7 a month or two later.

As for the answer that Delphinus is after, I can tell you this: my wife was a (powerful, she tells me) witch during her teen years, cast spells on people, saw her curses come true (not just by wishful thinking, but people getting violently ill, etc.), used tarot cards, ouija boards, etc. She has seen demons face to face (without the use of drugs!), and actually worshiped satanic deities. She is a Christian now, covered by the blood of Jesus, and has the gift of discerning spirits (that means she can tell when evil spirits are in a room or in a person). We have seen demons cast out of people and their physical features change so much from dark to light that you wouldn't recognize them.

MY WIFE WOULD NOT COME WITHIN 20 FEET OF A OUIJA BOARD NOW. Not out of fear, but she knows its purpose.

The first answer given by His4Ever was correct. It included the phrase, "Of course, all this may mean nothing to you, [if it truly does, you have no real reason to respond] or you may not agree with it, but if you're interested in the subject, I would recommend the book I mentioned." I appreciate those who encouraged Delphinus to try to use a scientific approach to finding an answer, but it lies outside the boundaries of pure science, and Delphinus mentioned she does NOT want to use the board again. Since the first step in research is to check out the findings of others (which is what the original question asked), Delphinus did it right, and His4Ever recommended an appropriate text. My wife's experience corroborates occultic use for the ouija board.

HappyBoy (for a reason)

P.S. We love Monopoly and Clue!
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  #37  
Old 11-20-2002, 04:32 PM
vanilla vanilla is offline
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Some people just refuse to believe.

As for me, I plan on buying Dogopoly!
Cute!
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  #38  
Old 11-20-2002, 05:17 PM
lynn73 lynn73 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by vanilla
Some people just refuse to believe.

As for me, I plan on buying Dogopoly!
Cute!
You're right about that, vanilla. Some will always refuse to believe. Happyboy's wife's experience is very revealing. So what if the board does nothing for some people? It's the demons behind it who decide when to use it. I don't think the people who've had strange experiences with this board are all lying.

From "the Ouija Board, doorway to the Occult" by Edmond Gruss:

"Some satanists use the Ouija board for divination, according to Johanna Michaelsen. 'I have spoken with those who have had close personal associations with satanism who tell me that some satanists do indeed use the Ouija board for the purpose of divination. Several police officers have confirmed this fact to me. At least one self-styled satanist youth gang in Southern California used the Ouija board to select the name of the gang's next victim from a list of people whom they consider to be the most vulnerable to their mind control.' "

"One of my students wrote the following response to my questionaire on the occult: 'The Ouija board has worked for me several times because I used to go to the meetings in San Francisco where satan was worshipped, and one of the main ways of communicating with hm and his demons was the Ouija board. I know the dangers.' "

"Sean Sellers murdered a convenience store clerk, his mother, and his stepfather at the age of sixteen as a result of his satanic activity. He writes of his own experience: 'When I was a satanist the Ouija was used frequently as a way to introduce individuals into the occult. We knew the Ouija was accepted by most people as being harmless, and once you got a person playing, it was only a matter of time before they would agree to join us in a satanic ritual.' "

"An English woman who conducted several seances on a homemade Ouija before she became a Christian wrote: 'I was frightened on only one occasion. A newcomer to the seances alleged that I was pushing the glass. Indignantly I said that I wasn't, and asked everyone present to remove their fingers from the glass. To my horror the glass whizzed around the circle of the letters violently three times before suddenly grinding to a halt in the center of the table.' "

Now does that sound like it's just a harmless board with letters? I don't think so!

Vanilla, by the way, what's dogopoly?

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  #39  
Old 11-20-2002, 05:27 PM
lynn73 lynn73 is offline
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Re: one last time

Quote:
Originally posted by vanilla
www.spotlightministries.org.uk/ouija.htm
Good link, vanilla. Tells it like it is.
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  #40  
Old 11-20-2002, 06:00 PM
Czarcasm Czarcasm is online now
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Isn't there enough real evil in the world today for you, without having to look under the bed for monsters? It is a piece of plastic pushed around on a common piece of cardboard by gullible humans. Nobody takes the boards aside sometime during the manufacturing process to cast a spell over them.
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  #41  
Old 11-20-2002, 06:22 PM
Cervaise Cervaise is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by His4ever
Now does that sound like it's just a harmless board with letters? I don't think so!
Me either. It sounds like an unmitigated load of rubbish.

Ooo, a piece of cardboard with letters on it. Scaaaaaaaary.
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  #42  
Old 11-20-2002, 06:32 PM
dantheman dantheman is offline
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Re: This I know

Welcome to the SDMB, happyboy.

The first part of your post has nothing to do with the subject at hand. The question is whether this particular game was created for the actual purpose - as opposed to being a run-of-the-mill game - of communicating with spirits from another world. Some have asserted this to be the case but have provided no proof to it (witnessing by ministers notwithstanding).

It's not a simple issue of believing things we don't see. I believe in Japan, and yet I've never seen it. I believe in black holes, and yet I've never seen them.

We all have sources we trust. I trust scientific experiments, ones that rely not on the subjective attitude of the mind but on the objectivity of the fact. If you wish to believe only those who have an agenda in believing a certain way, that's your privilege. I find it interesting that you yourself offer anecdotal evidence to support your claims, but even those claims could be verified somehow - if your wife was a witch, she could utter a curse on someone, for example. Your wife's experiences, true or not, corroborate nothing at all. Had they happened to more than one person, then those experiences would corroborate each other, but those experiences do not corroborate facts.

But it appears that those who believe that Ouija Boards are inherently evil refuse to explain why they believe so. I won't attack whatever religion you practice, but this strikes me as bizarre. They're evil why, exactly? Because you believe them to be. And why do you believe them to be? Because they are, that's why. Oh.

[And doesn't it bother you at all that these were toys sold in toy stores for the purpose of entertaining people? If they were meant to be used as gateways to the afterlife, wouldn't they be sold to adults instead of kids?]

Indeed, all one would need to do is get the Ouija Board out and ask a question without laying hands on it. If the marker moved, then perhaps there would be something there. If the marker did not move, then perhaps that would mean nothing.

I suggest that people believe there is "evil" behind the Ouija Board because they are predisposed to believe so; that their religion demands that for there to be Good, there must be Evil.

But the subject of religion itself is way over my head and beyond my capabilities, so I'll leave it at that. I will say this, though; the sanctimonious attitudes I see in this thread by some are at best condescending, and at worst thoroughly repulsive.
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  #43  
Old 11-20-2002, 07:24 PM
happyboy happyboy is offline
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Re: Re: This I know

Quote:
The first part of your post has nothing to do with the subject at hand. The question is whether this particular game was created for the actual purpose - as opposed to being a run-of-the-mill game - of communicating with spirits from another world.
No--the question is whether anyone could explain how Delphinus got the results she and her friends experienced from the Ouija board. Both the natural and the spiritual explanations were given by various parties.

Quote:
It's not a simple issue of believing things we don't see. I believe in Japan, and yet I've never seen it. I believe in black holes, and yet I've never seen them.

Your wife's experiences, true or not, corroborate nothing at all. Had they happened to more than one person, then those experiences would corroborate each other, but those experiences do not corroborate facts.
It's interesting that you believe in some things you've never seen, yet say that experience does not corroborate fact. If you walk off a cliff, the experience of falling will certainly corroborate the fact of earth's gravity, whether you believe in it or not. And if you saw a demon face to face, I guarantee you would believe in their existence (and probably mess your pants).

Quote:
But it appears that those who believe that Ouija Boards are inherently evil refuse to explain why they believe so. I won't attack whatever religion you practice, but this strikes me as bizarre. They're evil why, exactly? Because you believe them to be. And why do you believe them to be? Because they are, that's why. Oh.
Sorry, you haven't been paying attention. The Ouija board can be used (that doesn't mean it is every time, necessarily) as a gateway to the occult world. That's mentioned several times in this thread. That makes it evil enough for me. To my knowledge, Monopoly has never been used for such purposes!

Quote:
I suggest that people believe there is "evil" behind the Ouija Board because they are predisposed to believe so; that their religion demands that for there to be Good, there must be Evil.
If you don't believe in the existence of good and evil, can you tell me why we have laws against, say, killing people, or stealing? Certainly I don't need such laws because I wouldn't do those things, but if I did, why should it be a big deal? If there is no life after death, why would anything in this world really matter? If humans have no eternal soul, why should any of my actions--even if they hurt another living being--matter at all? I don't mean merely, "because the family would miss their dad," I mean morally, what would be wrong with crime?

To say, "it's not nice to kill people," won't work. Not nice by whose standards? Who gets to decide what's not nice and what is? If there's truly, absolutely no right and wrong, maybe my culture places a high value on the person who can kill the most people (like a gladiator), and if I want to kill some people from your culture, who are you to say it's a crime? Would you dare push your values on me?

Please understand that I have taken the argument to its extreme end (and now we're REALLY off the subject, but you brought it up), but it is the ultimate outcome of a "no right and wrong" philosophy. Of course, even most athiests would not support a lawless country--but that proves that even they believe, somewhere deep inside, in the existence of good and evil.
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  #44  
Old 11-20-2002, 07:44 PM
Delphinus Delphinus is offline
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Yes RJKUgly that was a quote from Anthony North's ' The Paranormal' and I didn't find anything silly about it at all. It makes complete sense to me.

'It is difficult to prove or disprove conclusively any paranormal claims. Most peole put these occurences down to coincidence, but that is merely answering one mystery with another and doesn't upset our 'safe' intellectual beliefs.'

Afterlife has not been proven but it has not been disproven either so evidently science can not prove everything.

Thanks to Happyboy for sharing his wife's experience. On further research on the web I have now come across other web sites where people have spoke of what I had mentioned with regard to the board reading your mind or such things similar. It seems it is quite common, so I am not a nut after all eh?

With regards to the question of whether or not the ouija board is evil or not I think the answer is simple. The board itself is not evil, for some it is merely a toy, but lets just say it has the potential to become a dangerous toy. If you are of a gullible mind then yes playing with a toy like that is dangerous as you are open to ridiculous suggestion. If you are of the thinking that you are contacting spirits or something likewise then yes it is dangerous because you don't know what you a playing with.

I am not of a religious background but having had experience with playing with these boards and experiencing some sort of phenomena I consider it silly and dangerous to dabble with it now. As for it being a fear of evil I just go with my intuition which tells me to stay away.
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  #45  
Old 11-20-2002, 08:06 PM
Delphinus Delphinus is offline
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Re: Re: Re: This I know

Quote:
Originally posted by happyboy

If you don't believe in the existence of good and evil, can you tell me why we have laws against, say, killing people, or stealing? Certainly I don't need such laws because I wouldn't do those things, but if I did, why should it be a big deal? If there is no life after death, why would anything in this world really matter? If humans have no eternal soul, why should any of my actions--even if they hurt another living being--matter at all? I don't mean merely, "because the family would miss their dad," I mean morally, what would be wrong with crime?

To say, "it's not nice to kill people," won't work. Not nice by whose standards? Who gets to decide what's not nice and what is? If there's truly, absolutely no right and wrong, maybe my culture places a high value on the person who can kill the most people (like a gladiator), and if I want to kill some people from your culture, who are you to say it's a crime? Would you dare push your values on me?
Pure class, I couldn't have said that better myself. Spooky as well because only the other day that very thought crossed my mind. As I was thinking/reading can't remember which, it dawned on me that very idea, good vs evil, we abide by laws, why is that?
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  #46  
Old 11-20-2002, 08:18 PM
Petter Petter is offline
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Come on, happyboy, not this 'atheists who have morals really believe' crap again. I've only been here slightly longer than you, but a quick read through Great Debates shows quite a few counterarguments to that theory. You could start here or here.

With regards to the spiritual nature of a Ouija board, I'm going to have to get back to you pending the result of my goat entrails reading.
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  #47  
Old 11-21-2002, 12:15 AM
JimOfAllTrades JimOfAllTrades is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by happyboy
If you don't believe in the existence of good and evil, can you tell me why we have laws against, say, killing people, or stealing? Certainly I don't need such laws because I wouldn't do those things, but if I did, why should it be a big deal? If there is no life after death, why would anything in this world really matter? If humans have no eternal soul, why should any of my actions--even if they hurt another living being--matter at all? I don't mean merely, "because the family would miss their dad," I mean morally, what would be wrong with crime?

To say, "it's not nice to kill people," won't work. Not nice by whose standards? Who gets to decide what's not nice and what is? If there's truly, absolutely no right and wrong, maybe my culture places a high value on the person who can kill the most people (like a gladiator), and if I want to kill some people from your culture, who are you to say it's a crime? Would you dare push your values on me?
Oh Please. You’re saying that absent some mandate from an all-powerful spirit we have no way to determine what is in our collective interest? That’s just foolish. “it’s not nice to kill people” is a perfectly good standard, when you realize that most people want protection from being killed more than they want to kill someone, and therefore want laws that give that protection. Same goes for theft, assault, etc. These laws benefit most of us individually, and benefit us collectively as a society, by increasing stability, peace, etc.

On the other hand, the laws that are based solely on narrow concept of good and evil are the bad laws, such as laws against sodomy, laws restricting marriage between consenting adults, etc. Those laws we could do without.

In fact, we can argue that if there is life after death, you should be against laws against murder. Shouldn’t we do you a favor by sending you on your way to your reward?

Quote:
Originally posted by Delphinus
Yes RJKUgly that was a quote from Anthony North's ' The Paranormal' and I didn't find anything silly about it at all. It makes complete sense to me.
Not only is it silly, it doesn’t apply at all to the situation we were discussing. You mentioned something that happened every single time you played with a ouija board. 100% repeatability. Not at all something random like your quote talks about. Again it seems like you’re trying to have it both ways.
Quote:
Originally posted by Delphinus
'It is difficult to prove or disprove conclusively any paranormal claims. Most peole put these occurences down to coincidence, but that is merely answering one mystery with another and doesn't upset our 'safe' intellectual beliefs.'

Afterlife has not been proven but it has not been disproven either so evidently science can not prove everything.
Why is it difficult to prove that somethings happens or it doesn’t, paranormal or not? Just quoting some guy with an obvious agenda saying so doesn’t cut it. If something strange happened to you every single time you played with a ouija board, it would be trivial to prove. If you’re not anything special (as you said in your first post) it will happen for someone else also, and again it will be trivial to prove.

Again, this sounds like you back peddling because you know there is nothing to prove, so you hide behind a trite quote. If you want the real truth, put up or shut up. That’s what it comes down to.
Quote:
Originally posted by Delphinus
As for it being a fear of evil I just go with my intuition which tells me to stay away.
Well, yeah, no sense looking for real truth when intuition is available. Whatever blows your skirt up.

Ugly
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  #48  
Old 11-21-2002, 02:22 AM
clairobscur clairobscur is offline
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Re: Re: one last time

Quote:
Originally posted by His4ever
[B]I concur vanilla/b]

I attended a slumber party when I was young at a girl friend's house and there was a board there. I don't really remember what happened but my mom told me I was scared when I came home.


There are no Ouija board here, but sometimes people try to "turning tables". That's probably more difficult to get a result than with a oui-ja board, since a whole table round table has to move, but the general concept is the same.


Anyway, my brothers and some of their friends decided one night to "make tables turn". Without any result. So, one of them began to cheat, discreetly knocking on the table, or making it move a little in response to questions asked. After a time, everybody noticed there was cheating involved except one poor soul. So, all the others began to enter the game, and creating more and more frightening "supernatural events" (and pouring alcohol in the poor guy's glass to prevent him from noticing the more and more blatant tricks they were using) . So, not only the table moved in all possible ways, but my parent's old clock would rang, the books would fell from the shelves, etc...


It lasted until the guy, truly frightened, wanted to stop. I'm pretty certain he too was scared when he came back home. Especially since the car, "mysteriously", wouldn't start and he had to come back home by feet (at night, and in a remote, out of the way place in the countryside....yes...I know...my brothers were cruel...). I assume that if he hadn't been told the truth later, he would have wondered for years about these supernatural events (and in his case, probably remembering what exactly had scared him, despite the alcohol).
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  #49  
Old 11-21-2002, 06:49 AM
dantheman dantheman is offline
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Re: Re: Re: This I know

Quote:
Originally posted by happyboy
No--the question is whether anyone could explain how Delphinus got the results she and her friends experienced from the Ouija board. Both the natural and the spiritual explanations were given by various parties.
That's great, but the first part of your post was a dissertation of the history of science versus religion and how it applies to the occult, as opposed to the Ouija Board itself. It was superfluous.



Quote:
It's interesting that you believe in some things you've never seen, yet say that experience does not corroborate fact. If you walk off a cliff, the experience of falling will certainly corroborate the fact of earth's gravity, whether you believe in it or not. And if you saw a demon face to face, I guarantee you would believe in their existence (and probably mess your pants).
I'm not believing in them because of experiences, I'm believing in them because of scientific evidence and facts that point to their existence. Falling corroborates the gravity of earth, but it's not the only indication that there IS gravity of earth.

Quote:
Sorry, you haven't been paying attention. The Ouija board can be used (that doesn't mean it is every time, necessarily) as a gateway to the occult world. That's mentioned several times in this thread. That makes it evil enough for me.
This only means that you're extremely gullible. It's been mentioned several times in this thread, so it must be true? Do you accept everything you're told at face value? How do you survive in life? (Oh, and you mention to your knowledge Monopoly hasn't been used for such purposes - guess what, neither has the Ouija Board. It's just a marketing scam, for crying out loud.)


Quote:
If you don't believe in the existence of good and evil, can you tell me why we have laws against, say, killing people, or stealing?
Where did I say I don't believe in good and evil?

Quote:
Please understand that I have taken the argument to its extreme end (and now we're REALLY off the subject, but you brought it up), but it is the ultimate outcome of a "no right and wrong" philosophy. Of course, even most athiests would not support a lawless country--but that proves that even they believe, somewhere deep inside, in the existence of good and evil.
And where did I say I was an athiest? Oh, but I must be, since I'm not agreeing with your weird logic.

And I'm glad you're admitting you're taking the argument to the extreme. Now try not doing that and see how it goes.
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  #50  
Old 11-21-2002, 07:28 AM
C K Dexter Haven C K Dexter Haven is online now
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For those of you who think the Ouija board is somehow evil:

Throughout past ages, anyone attempting to summon demons or communicate with the dead or work magic needed to DO SOMETHING. Cast a spell, invoke the demon by name, use magic amulets or magic words, draw a magic circle, burn mystic materials, DO something.

So far as I am aware, no one has every thought merely writing the alphabet did not (now or ever) summon demons. Merely pointing to the alphabet did not (now or ever) summon demons.

So, why is a ouija board magical? What imbues it with supernatural spirits? Why is it different from a typewriter keyboard? Do you think that supernatural or evil spirits direct your fingers on a typewriter keyboard?

You can't say it was the "intent" with which it was made -- these things are mass produced by machines. There's no (or very little) human intervention at all.

IF you told me that, before the ouija board could work, you have to recite some magical intonation, turn off all the lights, light a sacred candle upside down, whatever; and IF you told me those magical actions were necessary for the ouija board to function; THEN you might have a case. But as things stand, it's ludicrous (even within your own frame of reference) to think the ouija board is "evil" or "spiritually connected" or "demonic."

Except, I guess, in the sense that little demons are lurking everywhere, behind every nook and cranny, to try to lure you to death and destruction. (Not an uncommon belief in the Middle Ages, but pretty much rejected today even by people who believe in demons.)
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