God bless the atheists

[Liberal]

In this Pit thread, Revtim expressed his grief over the loss of his father and the generally disappointing way things seemed to be going for him. I did as I always do and wished God's blessing upon him.

He made clear that he was an atheist. And Jack Batty expressed that my words to Revtim were inappropriate. And I didn't want to participate further in that hijack than I already had, so I'm opening this for discussion.

Some time back, I opened a thread in IMHO asking how atheists react when they get Christmas cards. The general consensus, as I recall, was along the lines of what's the big deal. Most respondents said that they appreciated people's good thoughts unless they seemed to be prosyletizing or something.

So I want to broaden that discussion and inquire in what circumstances, if any, a theist may wish blessings upon an atheist. And I wonder whether especially the hard atheists apply the ethic both ways: in other words, if the theist is to be silent about his God in consideration for the atheist, is the atheist to specifically mention the theist's God in consideration for him? Are both parties bound by the rules of being sympathetic?

I'm also interested in points of view from both parties. Does the atheist feel personally insulted when the theist says "God go with you", knowing full well that he is talking to an atheist? And does the theist feel personally insulted when the atheist says, "All the best to you", knowing full well that he is talking to a theist. For that matter, how is the Christian to react when someone says, "Pan be with you". Or Allah. Or whatever.

Speaking for myself, that doesn't bother me, although I will admit that when people curse my God, it bothers me a lot. I should let it roll off, but I'm not that spiritually mature. Does an atheist see a blessing as a sort of curse?

I hope this won't get hijacked into a prove God exists or you can't prove that you exist discussion. I'd really like to stick with the ethics and forego the metaphysics if possible. Thanks.

[Liberal]

Clarification:

This sentence. "He made clear that he was an atheist."

should have been in the past pluperfect:

"He had made clear that he was an atheist."

Revtim took no part in the discussion about propriety, at least as of that time.

[TVAA]

The Invisible Pink Unicorn disapproves of your actions. May Her merciful shadow fall upon you.

[Duck Duck Goose]

Well, if you're just asking opinions...

I don't have any problem with someone responding to my tale of grief by saying to me, "May Allah bless your house", or with being told, "I'm activating the intergalactic crystal prayer chain for you". It doesn't have anything to do with "religion" as such, but with the other person caring enough about me to do whatever he usually does by way of interceding with a Higher Power on my behalf. If he thinks the Invisible Pink Unicorn can help me with my troubles, then I'm just grateful that he's going to take the trouble to ask.

But similarly, I wouldn't expect an atheist to be offended by my telling him, "I'll remember you in my prayers."

[SuaSponte]

Person doesn't know I'm an atheist, the response is (a) (casual encounter) - smile, nod, or other pleasant but non-committal response. (b) (friend or other person I'm going to deal with long-term) "thanks, but I'm not religious.

Person knows I'm an atheist - annoyance or amusement, depending on my mood. I consider the person to be disrespectful of me; how I respond depends on whether I'm in the mood to be dissed.

Person who repeats or reinforces "blessing" after I've told them/reminded them I'm an atheist - attack with box cutter.

Sua

[jjimm]

I appreciate the sentiment (though not if it's used as a token of some kind of moral 'superiority') in entirely human terms: I am pleased that you wish good things for me, even though I don't believe the mechanism by which you hope them to happen.

[Soup_du_jour]

Very interesting OP.

Truth be told, I don't know many atheists in real life, so when the "time is right" for a "God bless you," or something along those lines, it is usually well-recieved. Jews and Muslims both really don't seem to mind when I, an unabashed Christian, say "God bless." I think that, in case one of my non-monotheistic bretheren were to need a kind word, I would be genuinely kind, but still leave God out of my words. "Cheer up. Things are rarely as bad as they seem," or something along those lines.

When I need such kind words, I accept from every party their kind words. Of course, if someone were to come up and say "Odin bless you," I might get a tad peeved. The exact same sentiment could be expressed in secular words, so the extra "Odin" reference might be constued as unnecessary, and therefore, offensive.

Therein, I believe lies the difference. Saying "God bless you" to someone in their time of need isn't, on face, offensive. But, if you know for a fact that the person doesn't share those beliefs, than it would probably be more tactful (as well as more comforting) to speak in their "native tongue."

Of course, if someone were to barely know me, and proceeds to wish upon me the blessings of Pan, I might not be offended. The good rule of thumb is to make your words as relevant to the person you are speaking to as possible. After all, isn't that what comfort is all about?

[minty green]

IMHAO, it is generally appropriate to "wish God's blessings" upon a person, regardless of the state of their own faith. It is not, however, terribly good manners to do so after the atheist in question has made it clear that he finds such statements misguided, annoying, etc.

Revtim started a thread complaining about such statements in his circumstances. You then made exactly such a statement to him. Given that context, it ends up looking like a provocation. A non-theological expression of sympathy, or a silent word of prayer, would have been the better course.

[UDS]

Insult is subjective: if I know that an atheist (or a different kind of theist) is going to be offended by my saying that I will pray for him, then I shouldn't say it.

But I wouldn't expect him to be offended by it merely because he is an atheist, and I don't consider it inappropriate for a theist to tell an atheist that he will pray for him, or whatever. The atheist would have to say explicitly, "look, thanks, but this bothers me" before I would think it inappropriate.

I think I differ from Sua here - I don't think it's disrepectful to an atheist to say that you will do something which you believe to be of value to him, even though the does not believe it to be of value. But it is disrepectful to persist in telling him what you are doing when you know he prefers not to be told.

But another, and more difficult, issue. If you know an atheist prefers not to be prayed for, is it appropriate to pray for him nonetheless, and just not tell him?

[jjimm]

I am a little curious about the motives of an atheist who would get annoyed by it - surely if you don't believe it, then someone saying something religious to you shouldn't make any difference: your annoyance appears to indicate some sort of belief or superstition. This is why I don't mind going to church on special occasions, and willingly attended Buddhist and other religious ceremonies on my travels.

[Amp]

I don't get annoyed by it. Even by people who know my beliefs, or non-beliefs as the case may be. I just see it as them wishing me good fortune, their condolences, etc. It is not really a big deal.

[Soup_du_jour]

Originally posted by UDS
If you know an atheist prefers not to be prayed for, is it appropriate to pray for him nonetheless, and just not tell him?

I say go for it. What can it harm?

Originally posted by jjimm
I am a little curious about the motives of an atheist who would get annoyed by it - surely if you don't believe it, then someone saying something religious to you shouldn't make any difference: your annoyance appears to indicate some sort of belief or superstition.

If I were an atheist, and someone I knew well (and who knew me well) were to wish God's blessings upon me, I would be confused as to the motive. Kind of like saying "At least you have your health" to someone you know has cancer. It may be kind words, but in context, it can come off as pretty mean.

[Davebear]

I don't think atheists, as a group, vary any less than any other group in the range of tolerance and irritability they possess. I'd expect the response would depend on who you were talking to, and what kind of day/week they've been having.

I would expect most of them to accept your statement for what it is, an expression of concern, regardless of the fact that it implies beliefs they don't share. (Unless phrased such that it translates to something like "I'll pray for your poor damned soul, you godless heathen.") Of course, I'd expect a Christian to respond the same way, if someone said to them "Allah be with you" (and vice versa). But, judging by some of the comments already posted, I may be expecting too much.

Bottom line; if you intend it to be supportive, it should be accepted as such. And, if they're too touchy to take it that way, well, the that's their problem. No need for you to feel bad about it.

[Liberal]

Sua didn't address the other side of it though. He described how things would move from mild amusement or annoyance to the box-cutters if a theist called upon God's blessings for him knowing that he's an atheist.

But he didn't say whether he felt beholden to have the same consideration when the tables are turned. Should he not say something along the lines of "may your God comfort you" if he knows that the person is a theist? After all, he expects the theist to be sympathetic with his (Sua's) beliefs.

As to my remarks to Revtim, I trust that he can see the difference between "God comfort you" and "Your agony is part of God's plan."

[FriendRob]

How does a Jew feel when someone says "Merry Christmas"? This seems like a similar case, but not quite the same, for the following reason: "Merry Christmas" amounts to an assumption that the person is going to be celebrating Christmas, while "God bless" doesn't make any assumptions about the person's actions or beliefs.
Still, if I were a Jew I think I would be offended if someone who knew my religious beliefs continually said "Jesus be praised!", etc., when I was around.

In sum, I am not offended by the occasional "God bless", but anything that approaches proselytizing bothers me.

As far as whether atheists should mention God around theist friends, the answer is No. The general rule is to avoid unpleasant subjects. There is no ettiquete requirement to cater to other's sympathies. Democrats need not say good things about Bush when around Republicans. But they might refrain from bashing him, at least if they want to remain amicable.

[Drastic]

In general, one should express sympathy and desire to help honestly from what's in them, with the form of the expression constrained by what one knows of how the sufferer may receive it. If it's known that said sufferer doesn't mind such expressions, go right ahead; if it's known that they do, making them anyway is less than right speech--it seems to me to be the equivalent of praying loudly on the streetcorner for others to hear, instead of quietly in one's heart or in fellowship with other believers.

[Kwyjibo]

As an atheist, I don't mind someone telling me "God Bless You", "May God bless your house!", et al. Never have.

Heck, I had a woman, here at work, buy me a Bible for Christmas. She knows I am an atheist, but this was her subtle attempt to sway me. (She said so herself.) I never even got upset about that. No point in it. She believes, was not forceful about it, was sincere, and was presenting me with a very nice leather bound Bible. (With Christ's words in Red. )

Heck, regardless if I believe in God or not, the meaning behind the 'blessing' is only meant to favour me, so I go with it and say "Thank you."

[TVAA]

It depends on what's said.

A statement that could be intended to be a sign of concern and compassion ("may God protect and guide you") can become a hope that the person change their beliefs ("may you accept the truth of God's love") if it's said in the wrong way.

I might wish Lib well in that I'd hope he'd abandon his ideas about necessary existence, but telling him that would be extremely rude.

[blanx]

Like most things, it's context. As an atheist, it doesn't vex me when folks say "God bless you," or even what Lib said in the other thread- "may God comfort you." However, when my father committed suicide and I was told at the funeral that "it was all part of God's plan", only my inability to find sharp objects at that moment kept me from a multi-state killing spree. (And believe me, I looked!) I think that "god bless" is shorthand for "I'm thinking of you, and hope that things are going well for you, and that life becomes favorable for you." Hard to be upset by this.

So, to recap- god bless is ok. "God's plan" will get you a beating.

[X~Slayer(ALE)]

Originally posted by The Vorlon Ambassador's Aide
The Invisible Pink Unicorn disapproves of your actions. May Her merciful shadow fall upon you.

uh... if a unicorn is invisible... how could it be pink?? AAAHH!! Dont foist your religious claptrap on me!! PAGAN!!!

Which reminds me. An atheist is someone who doesnt believe in a god (any god) so I dont believe any atheist would say anything like "Odin be with you" or "Pan give you strength" because that would make them pagan not atheist. Most atheists I know just shrug off as christian ignorance or bias any forced religious intentions like christmas cards or prayer or blessings.
Were I, as a catholic, say "Allah Bess you" to a muslim who sneezes would insult because I show ignorance of Islamic customs. To do so also trivializes my own religion. I know of no rule, doctrine or edict that says all catholics must convert all non-catholics they encounter. I know of a few that says we must teach the way of God. It says nothing about forcing it upon them. If an atheist is set in their ways, pray for them secretly and dont force your belief on them.

[Ethilrist]

One of the problems we face in the Society for Creative Anachronism is that many people choose to follow a persona which didn't get along too well with the offical church at the time, and also choose to react to references to modern religion as if they were reacting to the persecution back in the day; so, for example, someone with the persona of a jew who had been exiled from Spain rather than suffer the Inquisition would not like to hear references to Christianity.

This is a problem primarily in deciding what text to use during court presentations, and the choice of music for various performances; as a member of a large choir, I have heard several people say that if the choir was expected to perform religious (i.e., Christian sacred) music, they would, at best, not perform those pieces, and, at worst, leave the choir.

The rule of thumb I was given when I took over conducting the choir, which is my point here, is this: In any case where you're wondering whether or not non-Christians would be offended, replace all instances of the word "Christ" with "Satan" and decide if YOU would be offended by it. So, as stated above, saying, "You'll be in my prayers" is probably non-offensive. Saying, "You know that Christ loves you" will bother some people.

[aaaaaarrgg]

i am an agnostic at a catholic school and at least for me, i don't mind if someone tells me that they wish me the best, whatever the context. but someone who knows very well that i do not believe in their god but tries to comfort me in a hard time through their religious beliefs, well, it's not going to comfort me. i dont mind the general well-wishings, but when people try to 'convert the heathens' i am bothered.

you can mean something with good intentions, but it may not come out that way: 'the striped dress makes you look thinner' can end up saying 'you look fat' and 'may god comfort you' can end up saying 'convert to my religion' no matter if that's how it was meant. when people are going through hard times they are more often very sensitive.

for me, it often seems that my religious friends think it's sad that i am not religious. i dont believe in god but i dont believe in no god, i just believe that if there's something out there, i dont know about it. and i cant make opinions on something i dont know. it's very easy for a non-believer to feel that others are trying to convert them or impose beliefs, and that can be offensive. everyone should just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

[Lissa]

I agree with what blanx said. As an athiest, when people tell me that they'll pray for me, or invoke a blessing for me, I'm touched by their thoughtfulness, not offended. They're sending good thoughts my way, and thinking about me and my troubles. I think it's very kind.

I am horrifed by what was said to blanx at the funeral: "It's all part of God's plan." That's just plain rude to say to a person who's grieving, regardless of whether it was a death from old age, disease, accident, or suicide. The image of a deity carefully planning to cause your family pain and sorrow is not one which you need at such a time. Whereas saying something along the lines of "May God comfort you," gives an image of a loving deity who empathizes with your anguish, and wants to give you a bear-hug, and also expresses the sentiments of the visitor. There's a world of difference, in my opinion.

Among the athiests I know, a mere mention of God is not enough to invoke anger. Lashing out at someone for saying something along the lines of "God bless you," is just plain rude, regardless of whether you're a believer or not. Constant PREACHING, on the other hand, will bring down the wrath of Godless Heathens, Inc., and will get your name erased from many an invitation list.

[Polycarp]

It is never wrong for a theist (Christian, Jew, Atheist) to pray for the physical, emotional, mental, or spiritual well-being of another, whatever his or her religious beliefs or lack thereof.

What may be incorrect is the expression of that intent to that other person -- because it can easily be seen as an attempt to proselytize them contrary to their will. IMHO, respect for them as individuals takes highest priority; you will "witness" to them by treating them as individuals on the same moral plane as yourself, and showing by your compassion towards them the love of God that you would wish to share with them without overtly insisting that they listen to your views on faith, especially at a time of grief or other emotional upheaval.

As for Revtim's point in the Pit thread that gave rise to this, I have a difficult time with why an omnipotent and omnibenevolent God might allow things that hurt people to happen, and reduce it to His forbearance to interfere with free will. Hence, I don't think it's "God's will" that something that has a negative impact on someone happens -- except in the very restricted sense that He might have intervened and didn't.

[SuaSponte]

Originally posted by Libertarian
Sua didn't address the other side of it though.

I didn't know I was required to. And, as your OP asked for only the "one side," I didn't think I was expected to.

But he didn't say whether he felt beholden to have the same consideration when the tables are turned. Should he not say something along the lines of "may your God comfort you" if he knows that the person is a theist? After all, he expects the theist to be sympathetic with his (Sua's) beliefs.

1. "your God" implies a belief that said God exists. Atheists don't believe said God exists. Hence, were I to say what you suggest I'd say, I'd be lying.
2. I don't equate being sympathetic with anothers' beliefs with hypocritically asserting something you don't believe. Hell, most of my theist friends would be similarly quite annoyed if I were to make such a patronizing statement.
3. "I hope things get better," or similar non-theological statements of comfort or support, amazingly enough, seem to get the job done.

And I don't expect a theist to be "sympathetic with my beliefs." I expect them to be respectful. If I have Jewish friends over, I don't serve pork - indeed, I order in kosher take-out and serve it all on styrofoam plates. I don't do that out of "sympathy," but because I know what there preferences and beliefs are, and act accordingly.

Why the fuck can't you?

As to my remarks to Revtim, I trust that he can see the difference between "God comfort you" and "Your agony is part of God's plan."

Why should we have to "trust" that he'll understand? Why can't you simply act in accordance with his expressed wishes? You don't know how to type "I'm sorry for your loss?"

Or will your god only take action if you type the words on an internet message board?

Sua

[Fixed quote tags. -- MEB]

[MEBuckner]

Originally posted by Libertarian
But he didn't say whether he felt beholden to have the same consideration when the tables are turned. Should he not say something along the lines of "may your God comfort you" if he knows that the person is a theist? After all, he expects the theist to be sympathetic with his (Sua's) beliefs.

An atheist saying "God bless you" is not the equivalent of a theist saying "Best wishes", it's the equivalent of a theist saying "even though there is no God, I hope things work out OK for you"--in other words, a lie (the theist saying "there is no God" is lying about his or her beliefs) told for the sake of politeness. "I hope your cancer test comes back negative" is not a lie (unless the speaker secretly wishes you dead); it may omit that the speaker "hopes (and prays to God) that your cancer test comes back negative" or that the speaker believes that the results of your cancer test (along with all other things) will be in accordance with God's will, but all statements omit information.

"May your God comfort you" is a bit more artfully worded than that, of course--does it mean "may your God [who really exists] give you aid and comfort you" (with the part in brackets being a lie the atheist is apparently expected to tell for the sake of politeness); or does it mean "may your belief in a non-existent God nonetheless provide you with comfort"? Anything explicit along the lines of the latter strikes me as likely to be offensive to the theist.

It's interesting that you seem to see noncomittal words which could be uttered by either theists or atheists as being as explicitly atheistic as a direct affirmation of belief in God is explicitly theistic. Since one definition of atheism is "lacking belief in God" there is some logic to this--"The quick red fox jumped over the lazy brown dog" would then be an atheistic sentence, having no reference to God in it. (As opposed to "The quick red fox jumped over the lazy brown dog, as God willed it.") This sort of thinking could lead to a rather totalitarian mindset, and some would use it to argue that, for example, if the U.S. government does not acknowledge God, the U.S. government is atheistic; which paradoxically would seemingly be a violation of the First Amendment. But atheism is not a religion, and so it's perfectly proper for the U.S. government to be non-religious--"atheistic"-- in its actions.

So, is it offensive for a religious person to give a religious greeting to a non-religious person? Not necessarily. It will depend on the context of the relationship and on what exactly is being said and how it is being said. ("I have cancer." "Oh, God, I'm so sorry to hear that! I'll be praying for you—don't give up hope!" vs. "I have cancer." "I pray the Holy Spirit will soften your heathen heart so that you will receive Jesus as your personal savior before you die, and thus be spared an eternity in the Lake of Fire.") However, an atheist simply being NON-religious should not be offensive to a religious person. ("I have cancer." "Oh, I'm so sorry to hear that. They've made a lot of advances in the treatment of cancer these days--don't give up hope!") Being ANTI-religious certainly might be. ("I have cancer." "Well, I guess your Magical Sky Pixie didn't protect you very well, huh? But I still hope that your immune system--the product of blind, undirected evolution--and modern medicine--the product of unaided human reason and experiment--will save you.")

[Iamthat]

Is there any power behind the words, "God bless you", apart from who says it and what their beliefs are?

[Soup_du_jour]

Is there any power behind the words, "God bless you", apart from who says it and what their beliefs are?

For the sake of this debate...possibly.

Puh-leaze, let's not get into this.

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

I agree more or less with what Polycarp said, although I'll add that, as an atheist, it rubs me the wrong way when people say, "God Bless You," or, "I'll be praying for you," or the like. It's not fair of me, but it reminds me too much of the extremely judgemental fundamentalists who've said such things to me as code for, "I fear and hate you and take this opportunity to show my superiority to you while pretending to be nice to you."

I almost started a Pit thread about a letter I got in the mail today. And it wasn't even to me.

See, a local woman died a few weeks ago, and her obituary asked that in lieu of sending flowers, mourners should make a donation to our humane society in her memory, and gave our address. This happens several times a year, and we've gotten in about half a dozen donations in her memory. Well and good.

This morning I get an envelope addressed to "The Family of Angelina Pickering [not her real name]", but at our address. I figured that some mourner wasn't thinking clearly and had sent us a donation but had mislabeled the envelope.

Nope. Inside the envelope is a Jesus tract and an anonymous typewritten letter to the family telling them that her death was all part of God's plan. It was rife with Bible quotes. And it was clear that the anonymous letter-writer didn't even know the woman: he began the letter by saying, "I understand that you are grieving the death of one Angelina Pickering...."

Imagine being the family and receiving this proselytizing letter while you're mourning the death of your wife, your sister, your mother. As obnoxious as it was, imagine if you were an atheist who received it. Wouldn't you be infuriated?

And the next time someone said, "I'll pray for you," mightn't you remember that jerkish anonymous letter you received?

For me, it's awful folks like that anonymous letter-writer that get in the way of my acceptance of good religious people. Although I'd know, Libertarian, that when you say, "I'll pray for you," you mean it without any self-righteous vitriol, I'd also be reminded of the self-righteous vitriol I've heard behind those words from other people. Rather than comforting me, then, the words would make me cringe.

My father's going into surgery on Wednesday. Pray for him if you want -- just don't let me know about it.

Daniel

[nogginhead]

Three things: I was raised Jewish, and I still get a little uncomfortable with Christmas things, like being wished Merry Chritsmas and the tree we had this year. I think what bugs me is that people assume I believe like they do, when I definitely don't. My perverse nature got a kick out of explaining to people that my family goes for the secularholiday of Christmas, but not the creche or anything. I'm just tactful enough that I kept this to people I kinow reasonably well or those that really bug me.

As an atheist, I agree with those that said the context is everything. It rarely bugs me when people say god bless, but someone who knew I was an atheist trying to comfort me with "it's in God's plan" would make me want to describe to them my pleasure in the secular holiday of Christmas.

Finally, I have another twist on the thoughtful OP. A friend's husband just got called up to help in the war preparations and asked all of her friends to "Pray for Billy-Joe-Bob." First, what do the folks in this thread think of that? Second, what about my reponse, which was to tell her that I'd keep his welfare in mind? That's as close as I can come to praying.

[Spiritus Mundi]

When someone says, "God bless you" to me, I usually try to respond with "thanks."

The only reason I might act otherwise is if I thought that the proferred blessing was insincere or masked an ulterior motive.

[SuaSponte]

Thanks for the fix, MEB.

One thing I'd like to make clear about my original response: when I said that, in some circumstances, I would react with 'amusement,' I did not mean that I think "aww, look at the cute, silly theist. Isn't he precious?"

Instead, I meant that, in the face of the single-mindedness of some people who continue to act in a way you've asked them not to act, a head-shaking chuckle is sometimes the best response.

Sua

[Polycarp]

My father's going into surgery on Wednesday. Pray for him if you want -- just don't let me know about it.

As you wish, Daniel. But will you kindly let him know that I am doing what I can to assure his successful surgery and recovery. Because, from my perspective (which I realize you do not share), I am.

[Gyrate]

Originally posted by nogginhead
As an atheist, I agree with those that said the context is everything. It rarely bugs me when people say god bless, but someone who knew I was an atheist trying to comfort me with "it's in God's plan" would make me want to describe to them my pleasure in the secular holiday of Christmas.

I'm an agnostic and am perfectly happy to accept prayers on my behalf from those who mean well by it, but the last situation you describe irks me somewhat.

Some work colleagues of mine were in a train crash [aside: Southall, for those of you who know it] and emerged with minor physical injuries and psychological traumas, but otherwise okay; six (IIRC) other people (whom I didn't know) were killed in the crash. A very religious co-worker commented about God's mercy in sparing our colleagues, to which I asked "So why didn't God like those other six people?". She subsequently refrained from making similar remarks in my presence.

Finally, I have another twist on the thoughtful OP. A friend's husband just got called up to help in the war preparations and asked all of her friends to "Pray for Billy-Joe-Bob." First, what do the folks in this thread think of that? Second, what about my reponse, which was to tell her that I'd keep his welfare in mind? That's as close as I can come to praying.

I usually offer "well wishes" or "good thoughts", or tell them I will be "thinking of them". This has served me well in all cases thus far.

I also say "Gesundheit" rather than "Bless you" when someone sneezes, which for some reason makes people stare. What's the big deal? I want them to be healthy; "holy" is optional.

[F. U. Shakespeare]

I am somewhere between atheist and agnostic.

I would second what several have said in answer to the OP -- whether I would be offended by someone's saying "God bless you", etc., depends a lot on the intent.

I don't publicize my beliefs. And since proclaimed atheists are certainly in the minority where I live in the US, most people making such a comment probably haven't given much thought to the possibility that it might offend.

So I tend to give the benefit of the doubt in such situations (especially if the person doesn't know me very well). Anything less serves to confirm the strawman created by fundamentalists, and breathed live by Madalyn Murray O'Hair et al.

Also, my basic assumptions differ from one religion to another -- e.g., since Judaism has not historically tried to win converts, I might be less likely to assume that a Jew who said "God bless you" was doing passive-agressive proselytizing than was, say, an evangelical Christian.

[TWDuke]

I appreciate friends' wishing God's blessings on me or saying they'll pray for me, because I take it as meaning they care. Sometimes I wish they'd show it in more direct ways such as buying me lunch, but that's up to them.

However, if a stranger or casual acquaintance tells me the same thing, I can only guess what the motivation is.

(a) This person truly cares about strangers, which is nice, but doesn't have much to do with me.
(b) This person has some sort of intercessory-prayer quota to meet, which means I'm just being used.
(c) I'm being proselytized in a sneaky way that denies me the opportunity to argue without looking ungrateful.

In normal circumstances, I'd assume (a) and not be offended. However, if I had specifically stated that I was a nonbeliever and not comforted by religious statements, I might lean toward (b) or (c).

"It's all part of God's plan" is not something I would want to hear from anyone after a personal tragedy, especially considering what God's ultimate plan is for the majority of human souls, according to many believers.

I don't see why a believer should be offended by a nonbeliever's nonmention of God in any expression of condolences or good wishes. It seems to me a lie would be more offensive than a sincere expression of caring.

I have had a couple of people express annoyance when I say "Gesundheit" after a sneeze, but I don't feel right saying "bless you" and it feels awkward to say nothing. I've had mixed results with "shall I call 911?"

[Apos]

I don't know if this is a hijack or if it's simply another dimension of the same problem, but here's a little story.

A few years back (and it seems so strange that there are now years between me and this event) a friend of mine died of a particularly cruel disease (she was a very physical, excitable person, and it crippled and hardened her movements). She was really important to our group of friends, and was beloved by tons of different people: she was just a plain neat, creative, loving person. She also was not what you would call a Christian in her beliefs: she was very spiritual and speculative about all sorts of things unseen and afterlives, but there was no particularly pressing need for the idea of a God, a savior, or other such things.

At her wake, however, her parents, who are religious, had a preacher come in and speak. And his secretarian sermon was basically on the subject of "How can we use my favorite book of the Bible to explain why God exists and loves us, despite the seeming counterfactual that he made a world where someone so young can die of such a terrible disease?" In other words, instead of talking about her life (which he admitted that he knew very little of), he tried to argue that we should renew our belief in his god.

Now, I didn't find this offensive. It was her parents wake, and even though the sermon was probably irrelevant to her life (not something SHE would have been worried about), I'm sure it was relevant to what her parents were probably struggling with. But it certainly was pretty odd to have someone's death be an opportunity for pushing one particular opinion about metaphysics (let alone a secretarian one), especially at the funeral of a person who was open to just about anything.

So it got me wondering about if and how people of very different beliefs can gather together to deal with something like death that doesn't presume some set of beliefs over another. It's particularly hard when people don't even share the same ideas about the significance of death, or the things one is supposed to worry about. Yet, at an event like this, we DO want everyone to be able to come together as one, to have a unified ceremonial practice.

We don't necessarily have to take up the death angle here, and lose the topic at hand, but it seems like the same situation: we have a situation, be it death, or tragedy, and we want to wish someone well in a way that is authentic to us, but to the other person seems to presume at them a belief that they don't share.

I think atheists have it easier than theists here. An atheist can authentically simply wish a theist well WITHOUT saying or even implying anything like "there is no god." (the idea of an atheist speaking about "your God" seems silly in theory and rude in practice)

But a theist who sees all well-wishing and tragedy in the context of their God can't express their authentic feelings without mentioning how they think God plays into it. And, no matter how honestly that's meant, in this culture that, to many people, bears the unavoidable connotation of you taking advantage of tragic moment to shill for your particular belief, or presume it on them (well, I know you're sad: if only you stopped denying that God exists it would help matters). That's not exactly fair to theists: they bare an extra burden brought on about by other theists with whom they may not even agree.

But then again, think about it this way: to say God Bless may be what one hopes will happen, but that's NOT quite the same thing as simply expressing a personal feeling (which for theist and atheist alike can be purely emotive, without presuming any particular ideas other than "I exist, you exist, and I care about you and your troubles"). Personal feelings like ("I'm sorry that happened." "Is there anything I can do?" "I hope he gets better.") can be expressed without adding in your own personal take on HOW someone gets better. I mean, if someone said "I'm sorry that your back was broken" that's one thing, but if they added: "I hope that Bush is defeated next year so that stem cell research can recieve federal funding again to help you out." seems a little presumptive, especially if the person who's back was broken is a Republican who doesn't think stem-cell research is a good idea.

Again, people's mileage there may vary. Can the Bush-loving Republican look at that statement and say "well, I understand that they dislike Bush and support stem-cell research, and thus that was simply their way of expressing the hope that I get better"? Sure.
But it's hard to deny that there wasn't also an element of going beyond simply expressing such a hope: that something else was on their mind that they know I don't agree with, but felt the need to bring up anyway.

So, I dunno what to conclude. I definately think that theists bare an extra burden in such situations, because they face a tension between being inappropriate and being less than authentic (however, I think we could modify that: it needs to include more than just "authentic" because simple, unadorned commiseration IS authentic: it's more like by not mentioning God they aren't being _comprehensively_ authentic).

[g8rguy]

Sua and atheists who feel similarly, I've a question for you, if I may.

You say that you expect theists to be respectful of your beliefs, which I certainly agree they ought to be, as this is an important guideline in all cases. However, if Bob the Theist happens to believe that he is commanded to say something like "may God comfort you," or some such thing to which you would object, isn't asking him to not do so disrespectful of his beliefs? What do you do in such a case?

[SisterCoyote]

Originally posted by Spiritus Mundi
When someone says, "God bless you" to me, I usually try to respond with "thanks."

The only reason I might act otherwise is if I thought that the proferred blessing was insincere or masked an ulterior motive.

What Spiritus said.

OTOH, I did find it highly offensive when our receptionist would greet me with "Smile! Jesus loves you." Unlike Sua, however, I didn't go after her with my boxcutter (), just gritted my teeth and bore it because it wasn't worth the arguement.

[TWDuke]

g8rguy, I would hope that people whose beliefs required them to disrespect others would understand that others might not agree with those beliefs.

I respect everyone's right to believe differently than I do. I don't respect disrespect. Depending on the situation, I would try to correct, avoid or ignore someone who couldn't demonstrate a basic level of respect for my feelings.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Matthew 6:1-6
1"Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.
2"So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 3But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

Prayer

5"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 6But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

To me, this is what it's all about. Why does a theist feel that it's necessary to inform a known atheist that the theist will pray, or ask God to bless the atheist? If you want to wish someone well, wish them well, why shoehorn God into the conversation?

To me it usually feels gratuitous and subtly sanctimonious. It's like the theist is really saying, "Look, I am so much more caring and spiritual and wise than you that I'm going to pray for you even though you are a hellbound heathen." There's a "look at me" quality to the sentiment which I find annoying. If you sincerely want to show sympathy, then just say that.

I feel bad for you--- I'm so sorry-- is there anything I can do?-- I love you.


Unadorned statements of pure feeling are perfectly adequate without the addition of religious posturing.

having said all that, it's not like it keeps me up at night if someone says "God bless you."

[g8rguy]

Well, yes, I would hope that everyone realizes that there are multiple different beliefs out there.

But what I guess I don't fully understand is why it would be to okay to be disrespectful of someone's beliefs because you think they're being disrespectful of yours. If it is wrong for Bob the Theist to not respect your beliefs, why isn't it equally wrong for you to not respect his?

I can't think of any way of dealing with such a situation as I described other than avoiding Bob the Theist, and I'm just curious as to how other people would deal with it (which I suppose means I'm asking this in the wrong forum, eh?). And I admit that I know some theists who are of the quite vocal persuasion who might feel that their beliefs compel them to share some religious sentiment or another.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

[b]g8rguy[b], I think that I would simply thank the person for his/her well wishes and not acknowledge any statements about God. Either they'll get the message or they won't. That's what's so insidious about unsolicited prayers or blessings. if you reject them then, well you're a jerk because the other person was so well meaning. It's a crock, but but just pretend you never heard the word God. show know reaction at all except to thank them for their "kind thoughts," etc.

[Ptahlis]

As above, context and intent mean everything in this situation. Basically I think it comes down to respect and politeness. Besides the blessings with ulterior motives mentioned above, the only way I could see a legitimate reason to take offense would be if someone had made their wishes not to be blessed known.

I have a relation by marriage that is extremely religious, and she is offended at stock phrases that our society generally accepts as harmless. "Oh my God!" "What the hell?" and even (I kid you not) "Holy cow!" upsets her. She is not my favorite person in the world, but I do my best to try and refrain from saying such things in her presence because it's simply impolite. She doesn't like it--> I know she doesn't like it--> so I don't do it.

Should an atheist have to offer prayers or blessings to a theist? I don't think so. To me a theist NOT offering unwanted prayers/blessings is more in the same vein of an atheist NOT rebutting the prayers or challenging the beliefs of the theist who is suffering. a God-neutral expression of sympathy is not the same thing as a God-denied expression of sympathy.

[aaaaaarrgg]

the thing is, gr8rguy, imho respecting others' beliefs is letting them believe what they want to and not trying to throw anything in their faces. the best analogy i can make for this is that i am a vegetarian. i dont eat meat, but i dont try to stop others from eating it. if someone offers me meat, i simply say 'no thank you' and try to leave it at that. for the most part, it works out well. am i disagreeing with someone else's beliefs by not eating meat? perhaps, but by belonging to any creed you are disagreeing with someone else. the disrespect comes from not allowing other people to just eat their food. if a friend gets food poisoning from mcdonalds, i don't say, well i hope you see now the evils of eating animal flesh, i just offer my sympathies/help. if you want to eat meat in front of me, you can. i don't mind. but don't try to feed me a burger, because i will refuse. especially if you know that i am a vegetarian. same thing goes for prayer.

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

Originally posted by g8rguy
[b]However, if Bob the Theist happens to believe that he is commanded to say something like "may God comfort you," or some such thing to which you would object, isn't asking him to not do so disrespectful of his beliefs? What do you do in such a case?

Bob can decide in that case that God's feelings on this subject are more important than mine. If he does that, he's being rude to me, based on (in his belief) God's commandment to be rude to me.

Whatever. People are rude to me every day. But I won't thank Bob for his rudeness.

And Polycarp, I appreciate your sentiment, even though I asked for you not to let me know about it (and don't think you can weasel out of it by saying, "I won't tell you that I'm praying for your dad..." ). Since you were compelled to tell me about it based on your beliefs about what's proper, I hope you'll understand that, based on my beliefs about what's proper, I won't pass word along to my agnostic father. I figure God doesn't require the prayee to know about the prayer (assuming He exists), so it won't matter from that angle -- and from my dad's side, I think he'd just be vaguely creeped out that his son is discussing his medical care with strangers on a message board. (For what it's worth, though, it's a pretty minor surgery: I brought it up here by way of example, not because I'm unusually worried).

Daniel

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

Originally posted by Ptahlis
She doesn't like it--> I know she doesn't like it--> so I don't do it.

Beautifully put. I (try to) refrain from blasphemy when I'm around folks that I know are religious, even though blasphemies mild to severe are an integral part of my viocabulary and sense of humor. I don't hold back when I'm around other folks who are irreverent, however, because it's all about respecting each other for me. If you mind my saying, "Jesus Christ!" I'll try not to do it around you. If you don't mind, I'll probably say it at some point around you.

It's not much, and I don't think it's too much for me to ask religious people to (try to) tone down their reverent language when directed toward me, once they find out I'm not religious. It's all about respecting each other.

Daniel

[Polycarp]

Daniel, it wasn't so much that "I felt compelled to tell you" as it was a gentle tweaking, tailored to be "I won't say what you asked me not to say, but...." to illuminate the point that for a believer, asking God to do something is not a futile exercise but the proper response to a situation that needs assistance, entering into the spirit of God's Plan to facilitate a result that is meaningful in human terms.

In choosing whether to be offended by a "God bless you" or "I'll pray for you" type of statement, those who do not believe in God (or a god or gods) might take into account that from the POV of the believer, there is meaning behind the statement. I remember the comment of one preacher that "All we can do is pray" is, or ought to be, equivalent to saying, "All we can do is drop A-bombs on enemies" -- it's intentionally that powerful!

And yes, you're entirely right that God doesn't require any such knowledge on the part of the prayee -- such remarks are usually intended as a means of support and reassurance to the listener on the part of the believing commenter, when they're not the supercilious form that I think we're all in agreement is offensive.

[SuaSponte]

Originally posted by g8rguy
Sua and atheists who feel similarly, I've a question for you, if I may.

You say that you expect theists to be respectful of your beliefs, which I certainly agree they ought to be, as this is an important guideline in all cases. However, if Bob the Theist happens to believe that he is commanded to say something like "may God comfort you," or some such thing to which you would object, isn't asking him to not do so disrespectful of his beliefs? What do you do in such a case?

g8rguy, I think your hypothetical is unsupported. I am unaware of any religious doctrine that requires an adherent to invoke God when comforting another, or to inform a person the theist is going to engage in intercessory prayer on the person's behalf.

Do you honestly believe that a theist cannot say "I hope things get better?"

Sua

[g8rguy]

Originally posted by aaaaaarrgg
the thing is, gr8rguy, imho respecting others' beliefs is letting them believe what they want to and not trying to throw anything in their faces.

Yes, exactly so. But why isn't it throwing something in Bob the Theist's face to say "I'm not religious, so please don't pray for me," or (in an extreme example) to attack Bob the Theist with a box cutter, or the like? Obviously, when Bob goes on and on about how he's praying for you despite your request to the contrary, he's being rude and is not being respectful of your beliefs, but I don't see why it's not also considered rude and disrespectful of his beliefs to ask him to stop.

Just to answer my own question, by the way (and IATheist), I do what Daniel and most of the rest of you have said: I ignore it or just accept that such a person is being rude to me when they do something that they are aware I'd rather they not. It's those people who are rude or disrespectful right back that I don't really understand. It seems a little inconsistent to me.

(added in preview)

Originally posted by SuaSponte
g8rguy, I think your hypothetical is unsupported. I am unaware of any religious doctrine that requires an adherent to invoke God when comforting another, or to inform a person the theist is going to engage in intercessory prayer on the person's behalf.

It's entirely possible that my hypothetical is indeed unsupported (I debated mentioning that it might be in my first post). It's also entirely possible that it's not. I'm hardly an expert on any aspect of religion whatsoever. If it isn't unsupported, of course, I think it's worth pointing out. Even if it is complete malarkey, I, for one, do not object to thought experiments designed to make me consider my own beliefs.

Do you honestly believe that a theist cannot say "I hope things get better?"

No, I don't. It's certainly possible; I do it routinely.

But that's not the point, is it? The point is that I'm not certain it's not being disrespectful of others' beliefs to tell them not to pray for you. I could be wrong; it's happened often enough before. And maybe I'm right but it's not important; this has also happened before. But I think it's worth pointing out.